Cassandra and 'Brimerican' English

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First of all, I'm so terribly sorry to every language purist on both sides of the pond. I've committed the awful offence of creating a new word,

'Brimerican'

On the 18th of June 2019 I posted the first full chapter of 'Cassandra' and asked all of you for your help.

You may have noticed that I’ve chosen to write a story set in the US rather than my home turf, so, if I’ve messed up a phrase or cultural reference, please forgive me and let me know my mistake as a PM. As ever please be tolerant of my failings, and forthright with your criticism. ~Persephone

Over the last seven weeks many of you have very kindly identified all sorts of linguistic 'gotcha's' that we all unconsciously use and allowing me to refine and improve the realism of the story. Thank you.

However, whilst that has been personally helpful, it's also been interesting spotting words and phrases that have snuck their way across the pond in both directions in recent years.

I picked up the following two lists from the BBC (mainly because they were easy to Google) that you may find interesting.

Britishisms being adopted in the USA
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19929249

Americanisms being adopted in the UK
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14201796

The second list made me snicker as the 'Grumpy from Tunbridge Wells' set are obviously all alive and kicking (and unfamiliar with the need for linguistic evolution).

(And yes, I have deliberately included certain words in this post as my little contribution to transatlantic pollination)

:)

Comments

Language nuances

I am not particularly concerned about the shading of British vs. American language! A good story is a good story!! Years ago, there was a 9-part series on PBS about the history of English narrated by Robert Macneil. He (and others) also wrote a wonderful book about this. And then you add in regional differences and word usage to say nothing of how certain countries spell the same word!! And then try to image someone from Newfoundland trying to verbally communicate with someone from Texas!! They may technically both be speaking English but...

Newfoundland and Texas...

... are understandable. But East London speaks quite a different language from South London. And then there is West London near Heathrow airport that is populated by huge number of people of Indian and Pakistani descent... And many of those speak English that is closer to Mumbai/Bangalore version than to British or American versions. Many of "our British readers" have seen "Carry On Emmanuelle". And immigration officer episode (https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ssb09 from 04:23). And it was 1978... When I was on training near Heathrow some 20 years later it was much worse :-)

I find it quaint

You should see how Chinese in English speaking countries speak Chinglish.

So borrowing Brit speak does not bother me at all, however by setting the foundation for why a character would do so would give the author an ‘out’.

I for one like to play with the heads a bit with my American colleagues by using expressions like ‘are you taking the piss?’

Some get it and some don’t. To me it is kind of a test of flexibility in thinking and folks who can take on board other cultures are a cut above imho.

Two Stops Past Barking...

An English/Indian woman who stayed with me for two months was fond of using "Two Stops Past Barking" as a term to say someone was insane. When I used it in a story, several people said I'd gotten it all wrong, that it didn't mean that at all. Since then, I pretty much just do as I wish. :)

Your story is lovely.

Gwen

Officially it started as "Two stops short of Dagenham".

As at the time that stop on District line was "Barking".
"The saying has its origins in the fact that, on the District line of the London Underground Tube System, Dagenham was originally two stops away from Barking (it is now actually three stops). Barking, in this context, refers to the English colloquialism “barking mad”.
As not even all of the Londoners now know of Dagenham and Barking relation, "two stops past Barking" is understandable to everyone who knows what "barking mad" means. Whoever told you "Two Stops Past Barking" is not about being more than barking mad, got it all wrong or used some local slang...

Sod all, bugger all, and...

laika's picture

A decade or so ago somebody I was arguing with
(here in the USA) told me: "You don't know fuck all!"
God knows where he'd picked up this expression,
maybe a Guy Ritchie movie. I said: "That may be so,
but I know better than to use a double negative."
And he went: "Whaaahhh?!!?"
What a tosser!

~hugs, Veronica

.
"Government will only recognize 2 genders, male + female,
as assigned at birth-" (In his own words:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1lugbpMKDU

interesting reads

I’ve been reading and enjoying your newest story and don’t find any problem with your use of terms. The thing is the US is a large country and many terms used in one area have a different meaning or a different word or phrase is used in another.
Soft drinks are a great example in the US. Older people may order one as a “soda pop.” Some areas you order a “soda” while in others you order a “pop” and in one that I remember you order a “coke”. (I was actually asked what kind after I ordered the ‘coke’ as I quickly discovered in that area of the country coke is used as a generic term for any soft drink)

While I’ve heard many of the British word used in their correct British context, (since I do read a lot of the stories here,) Only a very few have I ever heard that are widely used in the US. And these are mostly used by people that have lived or visited other countries. Others such as ‘fortnight’ I had heard used but only found the meaning after reading stories here on BC. The word still confuses me as to its origin, as what does a fort and a night have to do with a 14 day period of time?
Autumn – It’s a season, It’s always been called that and we know that’s the correct term for the season, we just do not use it that often.
In the US when something is bloody, there is always blood involved. Americans do not use terms like “Bloody well!”
Bum – in the US this is normally used to refer to a lazy person without a job.
Cheers – It’s a drinking toast, Never seen it used for anything else.
Fancy – something elaborate, highly decorated.
Flat – having a flat in the US is not a good thing as it means you either have to pull over to the side of the road and change the flat (tire)
Frock – something a minister wears
Gobsmacked – Yes this one I’ve actually heard used although very rarely.
Holiday – President’s day, the 4th of July, Christmas, etc. specific dates that most places are closed. Taking a break for work to travel, etc. is a vacation.
Kit – a set of items created for a specific purpose such as a first aide ‘kit’
Loo – only used in the US if Spell Lou and that is short for Louis or Louise.
Queue – ding, ding, we have a winner! Yes this has become popular due to its use in computer terminology.
Roundabout – used in the US but instead describes a convoluted route or person who cannot get to the point of the subject they are trying to discuss.
Shag – Not used often but you may thank the popularity of Austin Powers for this one.
Twit – I commonly use this one personally for people that use twitter. The definition is the same 
The American terms are fairly correct, although “Two-time” has always referred to a man or woman that was cheating on their significant other. “He was two-timing her with her best friend!”
Transportation – Hate to say this but British have this one wrong. Transport is what you do, transportation is what you do it in. “We can use my old Ford pick-up truck for transportation to the Cubs game. We can transport the cooler full of beer in the back.”
Leverage – in the US It still means to use a device to exert more force on an object.
Trolley – I think they use these in San Francisco?
Takeout vs Takeaway I can see and understand how takeaway is used and find it actually more accurate than takeout, although in the US taking something away means removing it without the person’s approval. “You takeaway your child’s Gameboy when they are being punished.”
Ridiculosity – okay you got us with this one, although I highly suspect the orator of this word was either being funny or did exceedingly poor in school.
Train Station? – It’s a station the train stops at, I fail to see the issue?
Scotch-Irish – Okay in the US both are known as heavy drinkers, need I say more?
Winningest – this word didn’t happen to come from the same person that used Ridiculsity?

We the willing, led by the unsure. Have been doing so much with so little for so long,
We are now qualified to do anything with nothing.

Word usage

Winningest? Ridiculsity? I suspect that they were originally used for effect. I sometimes intentionally use grammar that would make an English teacher wince for effect. It can be fun to be flippant. It adds spice to stories when you have the characters use language flippantly.

The frock thing has always surprised me. Like Nuuan said, it is something that a priest wears. Or, some people use it instead of 'smock' to describe what a painter might wear to protect his clothes.

One of the reasons that I haven't written tales based in England or Australia or New Zealand is that I am sure that I would butcher the language quite badly. 'Tis better to write where you know the language intimately so that you can butcher it intentionally.

But how can we learn?

persephone's picture

Ray,

It was a deliberate choice of mine to try to write a story based in the United States, and to try to be as accurate as possible.
I knew the only way I could do it was with the help of the BCTS community. And everyone has been incredibly supportive.

As I've always said... you get the nicest readers here at BCTS. :)

Persephone

Non sum qualis eram

I am, perhaps, more sensitive

I am, perhaps, more sensitive to differences in speech than others. I did notice something you said in a rather British manner... or rather Cassandra did... but I can't remember what it was now.
My parents were both born in different parts of the US. My dad in New Mexico and my mom in the pacific northwest, near Spokane Washington, which is where I reside.
My dad being in the USAF, we travelled a lot, and ended up in Alaska. I've also travelled across the US as a truck driver... drove a lorrie? ;-) ... and have heard many of the different dialects in the US.
Because of travelling, I find myself slipping into the accent of whoever I'm speaking to after a few moments of conversation. I'm even fluent in Canadian. :-D
Which brings me to this. I lived in Canada for some time, and met my wife there. I have several friends still in Canada, even though I've hardly seen them since the '90s. By and large, however, the main attitude I came up against was a condescending tolerance.
Unfortunately, this is not helped by our Customs officials. Living in a city adjacent to the 49th parallel, I crossed the border into the US quite frequently, and found them rude until they asked the question, "what is your citizenship," and I told them I was American. Their attitude immediately changed.
I say that because of the attitude difference in the lists. Generally, in the US, there is a feeling of kinship with the commonwealth, but it seems that the feeling is not reciprocated.
Personally, I think that's a shame.
Thank you for this story. I almost didn't read it because of the type of church Cassandra came out of. I'm a former minister who dealt with very much the same type of outlook as was described there. Thankfully, I waded through that part. It dug up some very foul memories from my past, and unfortunately present. I'm looking forward to reading more when you post it.

Butchering language

I love doing that myself intentionally, although in speech not in prose. I tend to pick up accents rather quickly and automatically without trying. So I have a few that I can switch my voice to quite easily. of course my favorite one to use is my "Deep South" as it goes well with butchering the English language and making myself sound badly uneducated.

Just the other week some moron from "Windows Support" called my work phone. of course sitting there in our IT department I felt obligated to put him on speaker so the whole office could hear the ensuing conversation with him as he tried for the next 24 minutes to guide me into typing in commands that would have let him into my computer. Guys at work are still chuckling when they think about how I went on about how my 'coon hounds' treed a ground hog in the backyard and I had to get it down by poking it with a sharp stick.

When it was all over and he had finally hung up on me, one of the guy came over and told me the accent I used was the funniest thing he ever heard. I looked at him curiously and asked "what accent? That's my real voice!"...LOL

We the willing, led by the unsure. Have been doing so much with so little for so long,
We are now qualified to do anything with nothing.

Frock

It's a little old fashioned, but where I live and to the folk I know a frock is simply a dress. Often used with an adjective, a party frock, a summer frock. A frock coat is a very old fashioned garment. The word is still alive and kicking here though we all know it's under threat like the word folk too. As long as understanding can be reached, what odds?
Regards,
Eolwaen

Eolwaen

fortnight

is a contraction of "fourteen nights"

Thanks Elle

Thanks Elle, Seriously I never knew!

We the willing, led by the unsure. Have been doing so much with so little for so long,
We are now qualified to do anything with nothing.

I like the way that the

I like the way that the French count this differently; they have "huit jours" and "quinze jours" for one and two weeks.

fortnite

Interesting! Is there a word for 3 weeks/21 days?

Not that I know of

erin's picture

But there's an alternate name for a week, sennight. :)

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

San Francisco

Perhaps ironically, no San Francisco native that I know of (myself included) thinks we have trolley cars. The ones that run on rails via a connection to an underground cable are cable cars. Those that run on an overhead wire are streetcars. (We do have trolley buses, however. They don't run on tracks but do get their electric power from an overhead line.)

Eric

'Train' station - this one

'Train' station - this one winds people up a lot - station was commonly used as a shortened version of railway station. A new qualifier, i.e. train, was not necessary. Ridiculosity etc - I think a lot of these were invented here on the tail of the George W Bushisms being unleashed on the English speaking world.
Incidentally the French have 15 days in a fortnight and 8 days in a week (cue the Beatles song!).
It's not just the English language though, I presume the Celts had no word for a bridge as Pont/Bont was adopted from Latin.

My pet teeth gnasher is

"Inked"

When referring to signing a document. To me Inked is getting a tattoo. nothing more, nothing less.
Besides, who actually signs something these days apart from the POTUS?

In Scotland, a Takeout/Takeaway is a 'CarryOut' because you carry it out of the shop.
but there again where you live is where you stay and not where you live...

When I was in the US on business at a meeting that was dragging on and people were starting to sag, if I put in some very British language into what I was saying. It was easy to see who was awake and who was not.

Scotch-Irish

Scotch-Irish is a term in America for those, primarily Protestants of Scots descent, who immigrated from Northern Ireland. In Ulster today, these people are called Ulster Scots. My maternal grandfather immigrated to the U.S from County Antrim, back when Ireland was all in the U.K., so, in American terms, I am one-quarter Scotch-Irish. Any Scot would tell you that the correct terminology would be "Scots" and not "Scotch," which is the name of the whisky, but the correct term in the U.S. is Scotch-Irish.

You say to-may-toe and I say to-mah-toe

The two articles are interesting. The one about Britishisms in America has the attitude of being delighted. The one about Americanisms in England is just the opposite. Many of the opinions being expressed are about truly annoyed by the contamination of their language.

It is probably more a property of the writers of the articles than the actual attitudes of the people. It would be interesting to do a survey, though.

I think that there is a difference in kind between different words (boot versus trunk) and slang (pissed = drunk versus pissed = mad.)

Some things make more sense than others. Hood versus bonnet? Both make sense, since both are some kind of head covering. Boot versus trunk? A boot is something you wear on your feet, while a trunk stores stuff.

I think that the Internet has promoted a lot more cross pollination. Fairly early in the Internet's history, I read a British news article. I had to look up the word 'lorry.' And, thinking about it, it makes a lot of sense to distinguish between a pickup truck and an eighteen wheeler. At least, I think that the word 'truck' is reserved for larger vehicles.

One of the annoyed comments was about "you do the math."

But really... English -- singular. History -- singular. Science -- singular. Physics -- singular. Math -- singular.

You forgot one

Toe may toe, toe mah toe

And of course in the southern states it's "mater" :)

We the willing, led by the unsure. Have been doing so much with so little for so long,
We are now qualified to do anything with nothing.

To boot

erin's picture

One of boot's original meanings was covering, which is where its meaning as a foot covering and as a cover for goods came from. In America, actual trunks were attached to cars as containers. In England, boot was already a term for a covering over items on the backs of carriages and was extended to a new meaning. Another one that stands out as odd is turtle, used in parts of the US South for what is called a trunk in the rest of the country. :) Turtle had acquired a regional meaning as a hard-shelled case before it was extended to the cargo container on the back of cars.

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

Never consciously noticed

LookingGlass's picture

Maybe subconsciously I noticed them, but I would be a liar if I said I still don't sometimes use phrases I picked up from living in Scotland... and that was way back in the early 90s. Heck, my best friend stateside used to laugh at me for it until he started using a couple of them, too. The worst, though, was introducing the phrase "shut yer cake hole!" to a 3 year old who in turn introduced it his Southern country grandmother. That was a fun conversation...

That aside, "transatlantic pollination" never bothers me. Isn't that how languages have developed anyway? Bloody hell, who would be bothered by that sh*te? :)

Math

Maths is short for mathematics, a group of related subjects which in the British education system are all taught in the same class (not at the same time!). Regarding cross-pollination of the language my mum remarked that when they visited family friends in Florida in the 1980's she heard a number of words and uses she used to hear before the war in Lancashire (she had moved south when Ford opened their Dagenham plant). Thus many of those damned Americanisms such as Trick or Treat are in fact English or Scottish by origin.

Math

If maths is short for mathematics, is gyms short for gymnastics?

Good question - actually I

Good question - actually I think we used gym at school to refer to the location of our torture rather than the action (I've never been able to climb a rope), in the same way we refer to transport as the method used rather than the act of carriage. Hence the London Transport Board etc. Never said we were consistent in our usage.

Useless pluralization

We-uns in the Midwest like to put an 's' after our store names. So, we go to Wal-Marts, Aldis, and the like.

Actually, I think it's Wal-Mart's and Aldi's. Possessive rather than plural.

Fredrick Meijer from Grand Rapids, Michigan started a store back in the depression. It was Meijer's, then, after his business grew, Meijer's Thrifty Acres.

Now, the store just says 'Meijer.'

So, for all those years we got that one store right, and they have to go ahead and change things.

By the way, I have no idea where 'we-uns' comes from. I've heard it, but nobody around here uses it.

We'uns is fixin' to have grits and jowls

erin's picture

We'uns and we'all, you'uns and you'all, and they'uns and they'all are used in Ozark speech. We has the ordinary English meaning, we'uns means "us right here and now" and we'all means "all of us, including people not present but connected in some way". The others have parallel meanings.

Y'all is Deep South and Texas, not hillfolk. And in parts of Texas, Y'all is the polite, formal way to address someone in the singular when "you" might feel accusative rather than simply pronomial. :)

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

Y'all

At a national sales meeting a few decades back, one of the Texas reps, talking to me one-on-one, said something that included y'all and I looked behind me to see if someone had joined me. First time I'd ever heard it used as a singular form.

Eric

gyms

Maddy Bell's picture

is a multitude of gymnasiums.

Of course the Romans had gymnasiums in their forts - that was a covered training hall, meanwhile the Germans use the term for a particular type of school whilst in English it refers to a sports hall. Complicated in' it?

Mads


image7.1.jpg    

Madeline Anafrid Bell

Origins

erin's picture

Yup. A lot of what are thought of as Americanisms are actually British regionalisms surviving on a new continent where they got wider distribution. American dialects are typically more conservative than British ones. Most of us still pronounce our Rs like a proper Wessex yeoman. :)

Example: "gotten" is an antique British usage that still survives on the islands in some minor dialects but is practically universal in America.

The linguistic invention of the East End of London is legendary, and is probably comparable to the whole of Anglophone North America.

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

Yeah

erin's picture

That is sometimes exaggerated but the PA, VA, NC, WV, KY, TN, VA, MO, GA, MS, AL, OH, and AR hill accents are based mostly on the accents of London and Northern Ireland a century before the Revolution. They've changed much less than other American and British accents, particularly in the vowel sounds. You want to know what Shakespeare sounded like? He probably sounded a lot like someone who listens to Bluegrass music. :)

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

Well, not being a native speaker to either language

I haven't noticed any wrong usage of words, AND understood all of it without having to resort to Google.

Just keep writing this beautiful story, and don't worry about the language... :-)

Dank je wel voor het schrijven en delen ervan.
Thank you for writing and sharing the story.

Anne Margarete