Authors warning. This tale is intense with a lot of violence and heavy religious overtones. They are not my views and I don’t think this is going to happen. Its just a fictional story that I though would be interesting to write. Some of the characters in the story are taken from real people that lived. Some of the names and events are taken from events in world war two atrocities.
Chapter one
It was early in the afternoon in the dark courtroom. Cardinal Tomas Moore was standing in the center of the room adorned elaborately in shining red robes. His shiny hat stood up above everyone else. He was a unassuming man in all other ways. He was rather short, but his charisma and incredibly insight an ability to ‘read’ people bought him up from a meager priest to the leader of the Huston archdiocese. He essentially had political control of the archdiocese of Huston, which covered a huge area of the United States.
He acted as the governor. America had been this way since the “vote catholic or be damned” campaign ten years ago.
He circled the shivering accused like a predator. The man in the center of the room wore heavy chains around his wrists, he was clothed in a simple bound cloth that prisoners wore.
“You were clearly a member of the orthodox clergy, such facts are undeniable and clearly a revolt against the True Mother Church, and his Holiness The Pope. Your duty is to confess your sin and seek absolution, “ The loud accusing voice of Tomas shouted for all to hear.
The accused said desperately, “I have not sinned. My church loves Jesus Christ too. Please Cardinal Tomas, you must understand there is no revolt. I love…“
Tomas roared, his accusing finger pointed directly at the terrified accused, “Liar, no church except the Catholic Church is the true church founded by Lord Jesus Christ. There is no salvation outside of the church. Any other is false, a lie. “
His voice grew solemn, “Since you refuse to follow the representative of Christ on earth and you refuse to confess your mortal sin in view of this Holy Counsel of Inquisition, the Holiness of the church is clearly unable to save you and any further effort will not be wasted. You will be taken away from this place and be handed over to the authorities at Jasenovac Concentration Camp, Hopefully they will be able to make you see the error of your ways, and if not, they will know what to do with you. May Christ have mercy on you. Your children will be taken to the Jasenovac Youth camp for reeducation in the Proper Catholic Doctrine. “
At his final statement, two brown-cloaked Jesuit enforcers stormed in, grabbed him and lead him out. He knew what would happen next, a team from the elite section of the Ustashi would take his children away. The Ustashi had got a name in this area as totally ruthless, unfeeling devout elite section of the Jesuits.
Jasenovac Concentration Camp was a huge complex with several sub camps within. There were camps for adults and Camps for youth. He had visited all of the prisons within his archdiocese. They were not pleasant places to be but he understood the need for the facilities.
The next case for the court was a mother who had tried unsuccessfully to hide her sons homosexual behavior. Her sin was deception, and supporting her son when she should have dissuaded him, reported him to the proper authorities so they could help him. Now, his duty was clear. They probably had already taken the fourteen year old boy to the Jasenovac Youth Camp where the counselors would heal him of his perversion.
He sat down behind the bench where the other bishops and priests sat. “Accused Melissa Walker, the Holy Court of Inquisition knows that your son Daniel Walker is homosexual. We also know that you have encouraged this activity and actively supported his relationship with another boy. The court frowns on this. What do you have to say for yourself in view of your very sinful perverted activity?”
She wasn’t afraid at all, she said proudly, “I love my son. Supporting my son is nothing to be ashamed of. He isn’t sick, there’s nothing wrong. I wont ever not love my son. Regardless of what tortures you inflict.”
Tomas was enraged at this blasphemy. He stood up, his face purple, his body trembling, “You unrepentant heretic!” He roared at the woman. “The Holy Bible is the very word of god, it is clear on the issue of homosexuality. In you supporting this clear revolt against the Word of Christ has made you an unrepentant heretic. You will be taken from this place and delivered to the civil authorities which will deliver you to the executioner!”
She sighed, “If that is what loving my son will cost me, so be it. My blood will be on your hands, Cardinal. “
Two Jesuits walked in and took her out of the courtroom. He had overseen the cases today. The presiding archbishop could do the rest. He had to leave and take care of his family.
His wife Michelle had just sent him a text message that told him they had a big problem with his son Mike. He just wondered what it could be now. The last time she called him was because he was all dressed up in his mothers’ clothes. When Tomas came home, he was surprised and hardly recognized his son. He looked like a normal teenage girl. It was astonishing. He just dreaded what the problem was now.
He got in his limousine and told the chuffer to drive him home. Since his car had the proper tags and markings of a high cleric in the United States no one even bothered to harass him. He had two Ustashi escorting him where ever he went. The escort was two fold, one was to protect him from any attack. There was still pockets of Orthodox and Methodist resistance to the regime, the other reason was to keep tabs on him. No one in the regime was entirely free from spying that reported directly to the pope, and the high cardinal Victor Stepinac. The pope created an entire new rank of Cardinal that acted as the leader of the United States. High Cardinal Victor Stepinac was the highest ranking member of the clergy in the United States so naturally he was in charge of all of the archdioceses, All cardinals reported to him. In fact, the High Cardinal was the dictator of the United States; only the Pope could give him orders. It worked for Cardinal Tomas More, He hasn’t disagreed with a sermon or Epistles from the high cardinal yet.
As the Limousine pulled into his four story luxury manor, he looked out and waited for someone to open the door for him. He didn’t know what was up with his son and he wasn’t entirely sure he wanted to know but he had to face it sooner or later.
He was right. His ‘son’ was wearing his mothers pink satin grown when he opened the door. He was very upset and that was understating it. He couldn’t stop crying and his mother was holding him tightly.
He knelt beside his wife and asked, “What is going on?”
His son looked up, still sobbing and his wife said, “I guess you know he has been dressing like this more now. He came out to me today with something that I think you should know. Its going to be very hard and frankly, it scares me. “
“What Jennifer, come out with it,” He said impatiently.
“Well, Jake told me today that he knows, knows that he is a girl inside. “
“What!,” He said.
“Don’t interrupt Tomas, there is more. I didn’t even know this. Jake, well I guess we should call him Julianna. He has been having a relationship with a boy. Jake was the girl in the relationship. The boy loved him but she is very upset now because the boy was taken away. She knows he was taken by the Ustashi. Tomas, the boys name is Daniel. I think that you know where this is headed. “
Thomas’s has lost its color and turned into a ghostly white. This was more dangerous than he had thought.
“Thomas, I have spoken with Julianna and she clearly cant be convinced she is anything but a girl. The urge is very strong and I think its genuine. What do we do?”
“Julianna, I love you and I have a couple of choices to make. Can you give us some privacy?”
“Yes, dad,” she stood up and walked out. She stopped around the corner. This concerned her as much as anyone.
“Jennifer, this really scares me. IF what you say is true, I think we both know what the state will say, and what they will do. This is terribly dangerous and if I’m found to have hid it, we would all face the same fate.”
She protested loudly, “Tomas you cant even consider turning her over to the Jesuits for their ‘treatment’ of what they will say is a perversion. “
She really hit it hard. He wasn’t thinking about it but that was clearly his duty now. But, his son, or daughter. What they did wasn’t treatment at all. It was just starvation, abuse, and torture. Jake wouldn’t survive the camp for a week. He had to do anything he could to avoid this becoming known to the authorities. By any means he had.
He whispered, “I know, Jennifer. “
He didn’t know it, but the authorities at Jasenovac had found out who denials lover was. The commandment Father Filipovic had found out who Daniels lover was and had informed the Ustashi. They started making plans for the poor kid.
The matter between Tomas and his wife was settled. Tomas then went into Julianna’s room
The girl was very scared when Tomas came in her bedroom. She was totally covered up. He sat on the side of her bed and pulled her up into a tight hug. “Jake, I mean Julianna, don’t be scared.”
She looked up with her tear-stained face and said, “You don’t hate me?”
“No nooo way,” He answered firmly leaving no room to doubt it. “I am your father. There is no way I could hate you. Ever. This is going to take some time but I assure you that I will learn to deal with having a daughter like you. “
The girl looked a little more relaxed. She said, ”Thank you Father. But what are we going to do? The way things are, there’s no way I will be accepted as Julianna. I heard what you said might happen. What are we going to do?”
“I will tell you my daughter Julianna,” He said. “We will have to disappear. We will leave this place forever. “
She looked up hopeful. “Where will we go? “
“I cant say tonight. I just don’t know. I will make some arrangements and figure it out tomorrow. You, Julianna, you will go to school as Jake as you have done and when you come home, I will be ready to go. Now go get some sleep. I have things to think about and preparations to make. Please don’t worry about them because I will take care of everything.”
It surprised him that the decision to betray the nation that had treated him so good up to now was so easy. But having a son that his nation would want to kill changed things a lot. He started to feel a crushing guilt now at having treated other parents so horribly for the same thing he was doing now. He was man enough to admit that he was now a hypocrite. He promised himself that somehow, he would make up for what he had done. He would make some things right.
At the same time, his daughter Julianna was worrying herself. It wasn’t easy not to worry when she knew what the dangers were and what the state would do to her if it found out. It was her ass on the line. Pretending to be a strong masculine boy at school wasn’t easy and it was getting harder and harder to keep up such a façade. She was sick of it. Only another day and then, hopefully she would be free. She wished she could believe it.
“The United States was not always such a righteous nation, “ An older Jesuit stated in front of a classroom with twenty students. The Jesuit teacher was wearing their traditional brown robe with a rope belt. The classroom was a typically catholic style church. There were stained glass windows with images of Mary and Jesus. Each student sat at desk. The teacher in front was lecturing about American history. Julianna was there and listened. She hated this school. But what could she do?
“Before we saved America, it was a terribly sinful place. Sex, perversion and lewdness ruled the day. It has 50 states that did what ever they wanted. “
A boy in front raised his hand, “How was it saved, Father?”
“The Holy Father saved it. I will explain. It started about fifteen years ago. Americans had begun to realize how sinful their nation was becoming. Each state started passing though its legislator against it. Arizona passed a proposition making marriage between a man and a woman. California did the same, Arkansas. Eventually all states had strict laws. From there, Our holy father gave enormous resources to the church to push though further legislation. Homosexuals soon had to register with the state and they were forbidden to live in some neighbors or adopt and be employed in some fields.”
The same boy raised his hand up, “Can you explain how they were passed?”
“Sure, you see, the Holy Father had wanted to save America for a long time. They financed a big effort sending in Jesuits by the millions. By the 1990s, they were secretly in place in the federal legislator and most state legislators. Move forward and we have the congresses passing their own series of laws against homosexuals and such. It was all in place ten years ago. A catholic priest ran for the president. When other parties tried to give their speeches, Our holy father had all of the churches ring their bells so no one could hear them. Large billboards ordered everyone to vote catholic or they would be damned in hell for a million years, no purgatory. He was elected. And now the united
states follows the right catholic doctoring, the catechism is our constitution. We are all lead by The Holy Father. Class, lets all pray the Rosary. Lets say joyful mysteries. ”
Everyone in class made the sign of the cross on their body and knelt, started the rosary.
Once they were finished, the father dismissed class. He looked at Julianna and smiled at her. Julianna smiled badly back. She hated what this man did to her. It always made her feel dirty. She didn’t dare speak out about it.
“Jake, follow me please,” He said. He always did this to her after their class. She followed him, full of dread about what he was going to do to her.
They made it finely and he shut the door behind them. Jake, I know about you feeling like a girl.
She nodded, “Yes you said that and you said you wont report me if I do these dirty things with you. I hope you didn’t change your mind Father. “
He started taking his cloak off and smiled, “No my confused kid. I wont turn you in. I enjoy our time together so much.
The things he did to her made her want to throw up. She looked over at him and his hairy body was naked. He was holding his sex and it was standing straight up. “You remember the blowing technique I taught you so come on.”
‘Oh not this again. It tasted terrible. ‘ she thought to herself but she knew there was no escape. Slowly she made her way across the room and knelt between his hairy thighs. The crotch smell overwhelmed her and she gagged. Closing her eyes, she lowered her head on him.
She was working her head trying to get this over with when there was a hard knock on the door.
A loud harsh voice said, “Father Walters. Open the door. The Ustashi is here. Do you know where Mike Moore is?”
Stupidly, he said, “Yes he’s right here let me open the door.”
There was no time and they burst the door open. The two men wearing black armor with there logo on their shoulder burst in and saw the Father sitting naked and the younger girl sucking him. The two soldiers looked very angry. “I see who we can blame for this. Father Walters you are under arrest too. “ They roughly separated the two and handcuffed them both.
“Lets go you pervert. “
They were lead to a team of six Ustashi soldiers. They promptly put Julianna in a armored van and waited for another vehicle to come to pick up the Father to take to an adult camp.
Julianna was very frightened now. She knew where she was going and she just knew she was not going to survive. The ride to the camp was terrible and frightening. It was dark, there was some yucky smell that kept making her gag. It was worse than the Fathers crotch smell. It smelled like something rotting. The ride was around forty minutes and it pulled into a gate and passed though. She caught glimpse of the guards at the gate and the despairing prison she was going to. It made her even more afraid.
Two soldiers opened the back of the van and roughly yanked her out to the dirt. They roughly picked her up and lead her to a wooden building.
She looked around and all she saw was suffering. There were thousands of children her age, some older and some younger. They all looked terribly frightened and very hungry. All of them were so skinny, the bones of their ribs looked like they wanted to burst though the skin. There faces pale, their arms looked like bones. Many of the children looked like they had bloody welts across their backs and even some of them looked like their skin was cut very badly. The worst of all in this camp was the large ditch at the edge where a horrible smell from coming from. She had a sickening feeling what that was for.
She was lead into the building where there were rolls and rolls of beds. The place didn’t look like it kept the cold or head out very good. The place looked pretty much like hell.
She was left alone then. She found a empty bed and curled up hoping to be safe.
It didn’t last to long as she started hearing loud screams from outside. She curled up until a young boy ran in and said in panic, “hey you there. Father Filipovic needs all of us to come out. We better go or it will be worse for the rest of the kids. “
She stood and started walking out. She saw the large man holding a young girl in his hands. He said, “Hello there new boy. I assume you are the pervert Jake Moor. The son of the Cardinal of this archdiocese. I don’t know how a righteous man like that can have a pathetic son like you. My name is Father Miroslav Filipovic. I am the commandant of this camp. “
She looked at him, full of fear. He looked like a very cruel man. He was holding on to a shivering girl, his other hand held a knife. Other armed men looked on.
He brought the knife to her neck and slit it slowly. She started screaming along with the other children.
He said, “Ustashe, by this, in the name of God I baptize these degenerates heathens. This Baptist scum child and all of the others. I will confess you and absolve you of all sin."
She saw a group of guards pick out twelve such children and brought them into a corner. They started torturing the children, gouging out their eyes, dismembering them with large machetes.
Cardinal Thomas knew there was a big problem when his daughter didn’t come home. He called the local office only to learn the Ustashi went to her school and arrested her. She was in the Vicious Jasenovac Concentration Camp.
He called for a elit Ustashi team to meet him and he proceeded to the Camp. They had no right to do this to his child. He was a Cardinal, Ordained by the Pope and given full authority. They couldn’t do this without his authorization. If they thought they could go over his head, they were very wrong as they were about to find out.
He stoped at the gate and they let him though along with his team. He went into the Commandants office and just waited there.
The sadistic Father Filipovic came in. “Hello Cadinal Tomas. What can I do for you today.”
He got right to the point fast. “You are holding my son here, Father Filipovic. You are to return him now. “
He became upset, “Your son is a conicted homosexual. We must heal him of his sin. I can not return him.”
Tomas’s voice grew very serious and deadly, “I am a cardinal, ordained and given the authority by the pope. I say I am more qualified than you. I will deal with my son. Return him now. You have no authority to hold him. “
He approached the commandant dangerous. “Unless you want to test your authority against mine. Do you want to become a inmate at this camp?”
“Alright Cardinal Tomas. “ He shouted, “Guard get me Mike Moore now. Bring him to my office fast.”
He looked at the mans desk and saw a jar of what looked like oisters except, they then he become totally horrified.
Father Filipovic was calm, “Those or orthodox eyes. “
He screamed, “Get my son now or you will be executed. Right now.”
A guard promptly came in holding the scared girl. She smiled when she saw her father. She ran up and held him tightly. “I am sorry this had to happen. Lets go. ‘ as he was leaving, he pulled a guard aside, “Father Filipovic is excommunicated. Execute him as a heretic .”
They were on the road and Julianna asked, “Where are we going dad.”
He looked over at his daughter, “We are going to a great land. The best nation in the world. We are going to Israel. I heard it is being lead by a great messenger of God now. The Jews call him Prophet Elijah. I don’t know if any of that is true but what we do know is, everyone is free there. It is a great land of happiness, the oppression we experience here doesn’t exist there. That is where we are headed.”
It sounded good to her but there were many questions “How will we get there.”
“I have just found out about an underground thingy. Many orthodox and jews that our regime conceders heretics get free using it. Now its our turn. We are going to see a Rabi now.
Comments
Wish you had ....
--Managed to get someone from Big Closet to proofread your story. Readability is even more important to a story than Budweiser's "drinkability" is to its stuff.(Grammar, spelling, etc.)
--Not used a religious background that so obviously refers to one of the great Christian churches in our society. Since your work is one of fiction, you could easily have invented a church to fill your needs.
--Explained how the church in your story came to differ from current reality. I refer to the obvious marriage of the "cardinal" and the use of brown rather than black for the enforcer group.
These points call for: collaboration (editorial assistance), creativity (to help your work stand up by itself (and offend good people minimally)) and accuracy (fact-checking is rarely fun, but those editors can be very helpful in this, too.)
This story practically read itself -- I was interested in it. But then I was disappointed at the end when the cardinal pulled rank on the camp commandant and then order him shot. Sounds like the victory goes to him who has the greatest tyrannical clout, the major hypocrite. And what about the thousands of other prisoners in the camp?
PS: Recently back from chilly morning walk -- helps brain focus, today on Julianna. What has father given up in the name of love? ---- And I'll just bet that's a lot of your point. Just takes some of us more time (and words) than others.
Ummmm....
... the drift into an alternative reality is far more extensiv than just different coloured habits and marrying clergy as Leah seems to suggest. I agree making up a different church would have been much better. This bears no resemblance at all to the Catholic Church, so it's not really going to offend any Catholics, it just looks ill-informed.
Writing alternative history stories is tricky because one needs to be very faithful to some common details between the realities so that things can be recognisable, which means a lot of research.
I'm afraid I found this terribly unconvincing.
XX
AD
Catholic
Catholic is only a word. It means universal or complete. There are other Catholic churches in addition to the Roman Catholic one, although *some* Roman Catholics seem to believe that it's a trademark, and indeed some Christian (or quasi-Christian) denominations view the word with suspicion, or even revulsion, because it has been so often used by the church in Rome to declare an arrogant and false authority over other Christians.
Philip Pullman's Church, for example, also has married Cardinals, Bishops, and the like, but a key figure in the Church's past is Pope John Calvin, who overthrew the original church in Rome during the Reformation and re-established it in Zurich. The Magisterium seems modeled more closely upon the Church of England than the now-defunct (in Pullman's world) church in Rome.
On the other hand, the Roman Catholic church was instrumental in passing an amendment to the California constitution legalising hateful discrimination against gay men, lesbians, and transgendered individuals through a campaign of outright lies, "spin," and vicious propaganda, and are now reaping, along with the Mormons, a reasonable and proper backlash against their institutional bigotry, whatever caritas the kind hearts of individual parishioners might hold.
One can, after all, and perhaps ought, "vote with one's feet" and find a church (synagogue, coven, or ashram) more reliably humane. They're really as thick as fleas if one troubles to look for them.
I daresay this story, admittedly in need of editing, draws deeply from that well of anguish and emotion.
Oddly enough, the Roman Catholics and the Mormons have in common a rigid ruling hierarchy populated exclusively by males, a denial of feminine sensibilities which seems to me almost guaranteed* to result in pig-headed and hurtful adherance to the "Lodge" rules rather then individual situations, but then I'm somewhat inclined toward a cultural feminist viewpoint. And of course the quasi-official Roman Catholic response (by way of the Catholic League and William A. Donohue) to Pullman's Church in His Dark Materials tends to support my own thesis, since it tends to support censorship and boycot rather more than dialogue.
Cheers,
Puddin'
--------------------
* See Carol Gilligan, In a Different Voice:
Psychological Theory and Women's Development
(Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1982)
In short, she finds evidence that men tend not
to mind hurting individuals if an abstract notion
of "justice" is served, whereas women tend to value
compassion and "the greater good" rather more than
arbitrary rules. There are exceptions, of course,
but a glance at most election results shows that
the notion is grounded in at least some reality.
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Using "Pope", "Cardinal",
Using "Pope", "Cardinal", "diocese", "Inquistion" and "Jesuit" means that it *is* about the Roman Catholic church, or at least some alternate universe version of it.
While the Catholic church is very much against gay marriage, they do not consider homosexuality a sin. Just having homosexual sex.
It's the Mormons who were the big backers of Prop 8.
Brooke brooke at shadowgard dot com
http://brooke.shadowgard.com/
Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls
It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world
"Lola", the Kinks
No, that's not the real story...
San Francisco Catholic Archbishop George Niederauer roped in the Mormons, who at first didn't much give a damn, since California is a hotbed of sin in any case. Niederauer was formerly the Bishop of Salt Lake City, so had many contacts among the LDS hierarchy. He brags about his "success" in this effort, since Catholics, although more numerous, didn't command the wealth and power of the Mormons.
It's certainly true that around half the funding behind Prop 8 was contributed by Mormons, at the request of their church, with the rest split between the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic social organisation and a major donor, individual Roman Catholics, various evangelical Christian churches and their members, and right-wing hate groups. By far the greatest support came from Mormons and Catholics, with other donor affiliations somewhere down the list.
The LDS operation is a well-oiled money machine, with a great number of people who merely ask "How high?" when the "Presidency" (roughly equivalent to the Pope, except the Pope isn't a Prophet and Revelator who speaks God's words directly and can amend the Bible at will... er... when God tells him to) says "Jump!"
This handy power to part the figurative waters came in handy when, after almost everyone else (other than the KKK and other White Supremicist / Racial Identity groups, of course) in the world had decided that Blacks were fully human, the then Living Prophet and Revelator, Spencer W. Kimball, declared that God had told him that Blacks were "worthy" to recieve the Priesthood and all Sacraments in 1978, the same year San Francisco Supervisor Harvey Milk was murdered by a fag-hating bigot* along with Mayor Moscone, who was disgustingly known to have engaged in *talking* with Milk.
The Black Panthers had just gone out of business. Jimmy Carter was the US President, Callaghan was PM and Margaret Thatcher wasn't to be elected until the next year. You know, the Dark Ages before electric lights and the invention of schools.
The revelation was necessary because the Book of Mormon, the LDS extension to the Bible, had earlier declared that dark people had become thus "cursed" by their propensity to "sin," amerliorated only by the promise that, as they turned away from their sinful blackness, they would gradually become White. Oh, Happy Day!
>>> And He [God] had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God; I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities." (Book of Mormon: 2 Nephi 5:21)
This bit has since been "revised" in later editions of the Book of Mormon, a process which goes on to this day in their more-or-less covert effort to blend seamlessly into "mainstream" Christianity.
Hey! Didn't Winston Smith have that job, falsifying historical records, even literature, in order to comply with the current flavour of political propaganda in George Orwell's dystopian novel, Nineteen Eighty-Four?
Cheers,
Puddin'
-----------------
* Dan White, through odd coincidence a Roman Catholic and former policeman, who received an extremely light sentence of seven years for the two cold-blooded murders. He was paroled after five years, but in a plot twist worthy of that old Rod Serling TV series, The Twilight Zone, committed suicide around the time he would have finished his full sentence.
Luckily, Carol Ruth Silver, a Jewish Supervisor, and Willie Brown, a Black politician, weren't around that day, as they were on his "hit list" to complete a bigot's quartet, A Jew, a Black, a Queer, and an Italian (much hated by some of the Irish in San Francisco).
Mr White was eating Hostess Twinkies, a processed sugar-laden "snack food" at the time, which of course largely excused his behavior in the minds of the jury, who rejected a murder conviction in favour of manslaughter, although the "queer" thing may have been a hidden agenda in some juror's minds, as a Dan White support group sprang up to lend moral authority to his "martyrdom."
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Dan White
Dan White, who killed Mayor Moscone because he wouldn't reappoint him supervisor and Harvey Milk because he believed (accurately, by all accounts) that Milk was the primary opponent to his reappointment by Moscone (and may, indeed, have been the one who convinced Moscone to appoint someone else), has no bearing on this discussion. There's no evidence at all that the Roman Catholic church played any part in the matter, and it's speculation bordering on absurdity to suggest that Moscone's willingness to take part in discussions with a gay man -- something White himself, in supervisorial sessions, did without protest -- led to his demise.
Eric
(third-generation San Franciscan, FWIW)
please
I didnt mean to start a huge political debate and i would rather not. While my story was kind of like a what if, my inferences to things like prop 8 in California as the start of something much larger and darker was serious. I doubt it will but things can snowball fast if we arent careful. But please dont have abig debate
Didn't
understand the tag words used to classify your story. Also saw Chapter 1 notice, but no more? Story seems to have ended at a logical place. Confused, am I.
lol duhhh
hello. Well i guess it blows I had fun writing it and planed for alot more chapters. I fully intend on exploring this new world here. I think i will have to rewrite this chapter. I didnt mean to offend any Catholics. That was the reason for my big warning. I had to use that chruch, they were the only ones with the Court of Inquisition.
Thanks leah. YOu pointed out a gigantic error in this story. Cardinal Tomas is married lol. Catholic clergy dont marry. They take a vow. Geez like, duhhhhh. im wearing my dunce cap now.
Father Filipovic was real. he was the real life commandant of the Jasenovac Concentration Camp. I did some research. He was a terribly sadistic man. Jasenovac was a real camp in croata during world war two. It held orthodox serb children and the atrocities commended against children boggle the mind. How can people be so terribly cruel, especially to the most helpless. I just dont know.
Ustashi were real. They were like enforcers or elite commandos in croata. I think they were made up of catholics too. cardinal Stepinac was a real Cardinal. he held alot of power in Croatia.
I dont think they will ever return to those brutal ways but this is just a what if story i thought of while reading a conspiracy theory website. I dont think its true but if it is we wont know until its too late to do anything about it.
The story was ok. But you
The story was ok. But you really blew most of the details about the the Catholic church.
You didn't offend me (not that I'm thrilled with the Church that much (I left it as a teen). It was just jarring to run into details as wrong as having folks in the US driving on the left side of the road.
The Inquistion (the "Holy Office" back then, the "Sacred Congregation for the Propagation of the Faith" now). was not only not run by the Jesuits, they fought it.
Jesuits wear black robes (more cassocks than "monk's robes, btw). Alas have.
The Inquisition was controlled by the Dominicans, who do indeed wear brown robes.
Dioceses aren't that big. Not even close. Most are merely a fair sized city and the surrounding area.
There's no need to invent a new rank for someone in (religious) charge of a country. The "rank" is Patriarch. And one of the big differences between the Roman Catholic Church and other non Protestant churches is that the Roman Catholic Church says that the Patriarch of Rome (aka the Pope) is the top banana. The others disagree.
The reason that Roman Catholic priests can't marry is because the Church ran into problems with them setting up little dynasties with bishops, arch-bishops and the like being succeeded by their sons.
Some other churches that acknowledge the authority of the Pope don't have that ban (yes, the Pope is the head of more than just the Roman Catholic church).
You've got some severe doctrinal problems too. To be a heretic you have to *start out* as a Catholic. While grounds can be (and were) come up with for going after Jews and varieties of Christian that weren't Catholic, it's harder to do.
Oh yeah. Being homosexual isn't a sin. That's *official* doctrine.
Having homosexual sex is. But so is getting divorced, having sex outside of marriage, etc.
With Prop 8 in California, and the many other similar measures that passed in other states, the Catholic backing was important, but *not* the biggest chunk. Not by a longshot. If it hadn't been for the Mormons, who supplied something like a quarter of the money... (the evangelicals were probably as important if not more so, since many Catholics are quite opposed to church doctrine regarding this)
Sorry for the info dump, but I was raised Catholic and still pay some attention to the Church's stances on things.
When writing stuff using a well known real world place, or group getting details wrong damages the story. Sort of like reading a story that has the Statue of Liberty in Boston. (Or to use an example that I ran into, having someone drive to the Grand Canyon from NYC. Overnight.)
Details matter. And getting words wrong (looks like you used a spell checker that doesn't show you the context of a misspelled word, gibing things like "head" where the right word is "heat") doesn't help.
It's best to avoid giving details if you aren't really that familiar with the subject. Better yet, use a different subject. And, alas, you wrote a story where the details were necessary.
I'm sure there are a lot of folks who'd be willing to help you try to get the details right. But you might start with the online Catholic Encyclopedia.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/
Brooke brooke at shadowgard dot com
http://brooke.shadowgard.com/
Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls
It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world
"Lola", the Kinks
For the sake of the future evolution of the story...
It might be good to further elucidate the author.
>>> The reason that Roman Catholic priests can't marry is because the Church ran into problems with them setting up little dynasties with bishops, arch-bishops and the like being succeeded by their sons.
But they justified it with many words, that Priests have to mirror the practices and body of Christ, who was male and not married, and buttress it with passages from the new testament which establish apostolic authority. (Luke 18:28-30, Matthew 19:27-30; Mark 10:20-21; and I Corinthians 7:7-8;32-35) That's why they don't let women become priests as well, so female presence in the immediate vicinity of power is the general taint, not mere concupiscence or concern for "dynasties."
Celibacy is a discipline of the Roman Catholic church, not a doctrine, and they do accept married priests from other religions who convert to Roman Catholicism without requiring divorce. These married priests are second-class clerics, however, and cannot ever become Archbishops or rise higher in the hierarchy.
>>> Some other churches that acknowledge the authority of the Pope don't have that ban.
Really? Any other than the Eastern Catholic Churches, also known as the Eastern Rite? They're mostly found along the border between the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics proper, in Hungary, Slovakia, the Ukraine, and so on, and are a concession made by the Vatican to keep them from joining the Eastern Orthodox churches.
Both the Catholic Apostolic National Church of Brazil and the International Communion of the Charismatic Episcopal Church (also Catholic) allow marriage, but they don't acknowledge the Pope's authority. Neither do the Eastern Orthodox (Catholic) churches, which, like Roman Catholics, allow some married priests, but don't allow priests to marry.
>>> You've got some severe doctrinal problems too. To be a heretic you have to *start out* as a Catholic.
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"Certain wicked women, reverting to Satan, and seduced by the illusions and phantasms of demons, believe and profess that they ride at night with Diana on certain beasts, with an innumerable multitude of women, passing over immense distances, obeying her commands as their mistress, and evoked by her on certain nights."
-- 10th cent. Laws of Edward and Guthrum.[5] After 901.
====================
Not true, although that was one avenue of attack. The Jews, for example, were threatened with instant death as "Christ Killers" and "converted" at the point of a sword before the Inquisition took over to ferret out those who secretly continued to practice or believe in Jewish religious norms and murdered most of those who were left. The Spanish Inquisition was set up for the express purpose of targeting Jews, no other "heresy" is mentioned in the Papal Bull authorising it, and the Spanish Royal decree which implemented it made the persecutions of Jews quite plain, although Ferdinand and Isabella, the authors of the decree, were the same ones who'd "expelled" or "converted" the Jews from Spain on pain of death.
As a Jew, I take some little exception to the notion that the Inquisition targeted only "Roman Catholic" "heretics." The Inquisition was part of an entire *system* of anti-Jewish persecution and murder almost as spectacular and decisive in its effects as the later Nazi and Imperial Russian pogroms and exterminations.
Likewise, as the above quote indicates, "witches" were regarded as having rejected the True Faith, and therefore heretics by proxy, since their (male) masters were presumably Christians, or were vassals of Christians and obligated to follow their Lord's notions of the "true" religion, no matter what their personal beliefs might be or have been.
When one has the power to "convert" people to the "true religion" by standing before a large crowd of non-Catholics held at sword's point or threatened by arrows and spears and waving a cross at them, "Catholicism" is a slippery notion.
Some Gnostics made the mistake of calling themselves "Christians," and since there was only one True Christian Church, were heretics by proxy as well, despite having predated the Roman Church (in actuality, if not Roman Catholic legend), indeed predated Jesus, by at least hundreds of years*. Many Gnostic churches view Jesus as a heretic who perverted the teachings of John the Baptist, who was and ought to be the true central figure of the church.
====================
Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, saying that Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.
Benedict approved a document from his old offices at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (The Inquisition) that restates church teaching on relations with other Christians.
====================
So every Protestant church is either defective (Orthodox, those Catholics who do not recognise the authority of the Pope) or heretical, everyone else.
The title "Patriarch of the West" was removed from the official titles of the Roman Catholic Pope in 2006, so the Pope is Patriarch only of Rome.
And the Mormons have local Patriarchs by the tens of thousands, since every Stake (congregation) has one.
Cheers,
Puddin'
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* Gnosticism most likely descends from Ahura Mazdaism "Zoroastrianism," a faith originating in ancient Persia around a thousand years before the common era.
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
...only ones with an inquisition...
Not true. There were several "official" Protestant Inquisitions around the time of the Reformation and after, which tortured and burned people with all the enthusiasm of the Catholics -- the Protestant torture and murders of "Witches," for example, were for heresy, not witchcraft* alone -- and the prosecution (and persecution) of "heretics" has been a popular pastime in almost every religion. Just like the Catholics, the Mormons excommunicate people who sin against the doctrines of the church, the concept exists in Islam, and many have died for it. The Sunni and Shi'a branches of Islam are mutually heretical to each other, and a large part of the sectarian murders of Muslims by Muslims around the world are due to this religious difference rather than the colour of their eyes or head coverings. The Bahai'i faith is a Shi'a heresy, and is violently persecuted in Iran, and other Shi'a strongholds.
All in all, I wouldn't limit myself, although the Inquisition is certainly the most famous. (Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!) The Inquisition also has the honour of still being around, although since renamed (bad publicity) to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
Cheers,
Puddin'
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* Witchcraft was declared by both the Catholics and the Protestants to be heretical because it foolishly held that there were other divine powers than God and his angels, which was "obviously" untrue, indeed impossible, so the mere belief that witchcraft had supernatural effects in the world was itself proof of heresy. Witches *poisoned* people. Period.
The persecutions actually started with the Cathars, who were a Gnostic Christian religious order who believed that women were (gasp!) equal to men and even encouraged them to preach! It was only when they ran out of Cathars that they turned to local Pagans (mostly women), so it's almost as true to say that the various Inquisitions were directed as much toward the suppression of women, and those men who aided and abetted their hertetical claims to individual power and authority, outside the overlordship of the True Church (whatever that might be) and the men who held them as chattels, as they were toward heresy as such.
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
jesuits and other monks
You seem to have confused Jesuits with Franciscans. Franciscans wear the traditional outfit (or did at one time), Jesuits don't fit the stereotype of monks.
Father Filipovic in history was a Franciscan.
thanks
thank you
I figured he was thinking of
I figured he was thinking of the Dominicans, who were the folks who ran the Inquisition.
And who (ironically) were very much on the outs with the Jesuits (and still are!)
Brooke brooke at shadowgard dot com
http://brooke.shadowgard.com/
Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls
It's a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world
"Lola", the Kinks
Umm... pardon me but...
Are you referring to Christine01? You do realize she's a girl right? I'm sure your pronoun mistake was unintentional but yeah I'm thinking she was trying to go with a theme like this under the guise of the roman catholic church, but just didn't quite get it. Like for instance, over time things change, beliefs change, if she would have set this like a thousand years in the future THEN it would have been more believable, because over time things are lost. Like Doctor Who for instance, when they went to 7 billion years in the future, and the last surviving earthling pointed to a jukebox and said that it was recorded as being called a ipod, and she kept referring to herself as when she was a little boy, which either means she was a villainess transsexual, or she didn't realize a boy meant male when she was female, which either way really shows something. I mean the aliens there didn't even flinch as she said it mew. So perhaps this is what she was getting at?
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
I Have No Problem
With the basic idea behind the story, i.e. an alternative time line where the USA has become a theocratic dictatorship with ultra-puritanical morals. That to me is quite believable.
I don't believe it could happen as an agency of the Catholic Church, even though I don't like that organization much, so that for me detracts from the story. Some kind of amalgamation of evangelicals would be more credible.
The other thing you must fix up Christine is the readability; the spelling and the grammar and the non-sequiturs that occur through your story.
This could have been much better,
Joanne
this sounds more like
The westboro baptist church mew. My brother's fiance who is catholic said that catholics actually teach ((in her church)) that women and men are equal mew. The ending though I do admit, using the word "thingy" by a highly educated (?) man, is kinda funny but also this could have used a bit of spelling and grammatical checking, other than that, it's a scary horror story mew. Other than that, I wanted nuclear winter for that world, if humanity degenerates that much, it doesn't deserve to survive mew ><
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
Visions of the past
I enjoyed this story but have to admit that it was written as if it were an outline for more interesting things. I did enjoy the author's use of the historical characters: there are very mean people who are in power everywhere throughout history.
However, I am confused as to why this subject appealed as subject matter to the author. While the author admits that this is not something she believes will happen. I have to wonder about the use of the Roman Catholic Church, loosely, and the many detention camps which appear to stand ready for some future purpose in the United States. It is the odd admixture of these two which I find surpasses the suspension of belief which is necessary for so many stories and, in reality, is usually willingly granted. It is not the imagined workings of the Roman Catholics to which I object so much as it is the application of stringent belief in ANY form of Christianity as a governing factor for United States Government. It is far more likely that some universal church form of our increasingly liberal world will ensure that those with any particular faith are expunged from the face of the earth in short order.
I am sure that if you rewrite or amplify this story, you can do your own research into the various church doctrines, including Protestant theology and I encourage this. I will only point out a slight correction to one comment that John Calvin's doctrines were established in Geneva rather than Zurich, something trivial unless one were studying the Reformation itself. In addition, it is possible for Roman Catholic priests to be married if they have converted from a Protestant faith.
Lastly, even though I realize that most of the world doesn't understand the difference between transsexuals, crossdressers and homosexuals who dress up as women, I see very little connection between the three. Therefore I cannot understand the point of referring to a transsexual as homosexual as is done in the story. Yes, the character seems to have performed a homosexual act, but not if he is a transsexual. It may be true that one can be both, but for the most part I think they are distinct issues.
I look forward to your next effort as I know it will benefit from better editing and better research.
Love may be all we need, but many of us only know it by its shadow.