I started using Grammarly, https://www.grammarly.com , three years ago as a spelling checker for my Apple computer. It was cumbersome but effective. As time has passed, it has become streamlined and works everywhere I write.
Recently, it has incorporated several features using artificial intelligence, which I wanted to discuss. Its latest option is a paragraph rewrite offering. Sometimes, it shows alternatives to what I wrote, giving me a choice to incorporate and replace to improve clarity. It acts as an assistant. It is not composing stories for me.
It's even correcting my mistakes as I write in here.
I like this option. I don't pretend to be a professional writer—I'm a house painter who's gotten good enough to paint a wall—but Grammarly has made me feel more secure writing for others.
It is a tool that allows an editor to sit next to me and offer alternatives to my composition efforts.
I was just curious what others think of this
Comments
Strengths and weaknesses
I'll admit I haven't tried Grammerly or anything like it, and I'm not really tempted to. This isn't a matter of arrogance on my part; it's more an honest assessment of my strengths and weaknesses as a writer.
Writing for clarity and precision is something I spent decades doing; it's probably one of my strongest suits. I have lots of areas that fall into the "desperately needs improvement" category, like having dialogue that reads smoothly but still seems realistic for the people who are speaking. Finding a fresh metaphor to express a concept. Adding descriptive elements that bring the reader into a scene in a way that is vivid. By their nature, these aren't areas where a computer program, even with AI assistance, is likely to be helpful.
Just by way of an example, Iolanthe's latest chapter of Seconds and Irregulars had this amazing bit of prose:
That -- that! -- is how I would love to be able to write. But what makes this passage of writing so strong is its novelty -- the originality of both the idea and its expression. Computer programs can help formulate alternatives based on algorithms that extrapolate from things that have already been written, so they can't help me in the areas where I most want to improve.
— Emma
Uniquely Yours
Dear Emma Anne,
Nicely stated. Your work is superior to anything I have ever written. Just reading your stories leaves me breathless. I admire your work and know that my humble efforts fall short of your writing. I agree that an algorithm could not effectively emulate or improve your stories.
On the other hand, my efforts are first written for myself and then, hopefully, to entertain others. I just want to do better.
I guess that's my pact with the devil...
I think I probably said that wrong . . . .
I really didn't mean to suggest that my writing is "superior," and I hope you don't think so! Like you, I just want to be better. But I spent decades getting trained to do things that AI is now able to do reasonably well, and very little time learning the things AI doesn't do and probably can't do (it's a good thing I retired when I did . . . ).
— Emma
as far
as i'm concerned, as soon as you go beyond spell checking, use of grammarly et al should be declared as written by AI, you didn't come up with the words, a computer did.
If that's what you want to do, fine but don't pass it off as your own worms (if you know, you know). I'd be the last to claim to be perfect at grammar and i often change sentence/paragraph construction, sometimes as i go, sometimes months/years down the line but they are my words not something produced by some algorithm in some server farm.
FWIW, all the AI generated 'writing' i've read has been very flat, lacking the very passion that writers hope to convey onto the page. Sometimes quirky syntax or spelling makes a story stand out from the pasteurised masses that AI use promotes, Shakespeare edited with AI would be a poor substitute.
So don't do yourself down, do a spell check, play with the flow of your sentences, do it yourself and (hopefully) you will learn what works for your style of writing, indeed you will develop a unique personal style rather than a robotic algorithmic mix up,
Madeline Anafrid Bell
no
Dear Maddy,
I appreciate hearing your opinion. But let's agree to disagree.
This is why I brought up the topic. I wanted to hear opinions and create discussion. What is different between my human editor reviewing my manuscript and an AI program doing the same thing? (Grammarly suggested 'reviewing' instead of what I wrote- 'looking over').
Whether I use a human or AI editor, I believe I am still writing the story. (Grammary suggested 'human or AI editor' instead of human editor or AI editor'). They are my characters that I attempt to make three-dimensional. This is my plot, my setting, and my climax.
Sometimes, I read a story here full of typos, poor sentence structure, and run-on sentences that hide the best part of the author's efforts. Some stories become unreadable because the author did not care enough to reread and correct their grammar, syntax, etc.
Just my opinion...
I agree
I agree with you. You don't want to rely on tools too much. To add color to your writing you often have to break the rules. My editors won't believe this but I do use a spell checker. The grammar checker built into MS Word doesn't seem to understand dialog or even fiction. I'm afraid that in the long run, AI will kill creativity. I hope that takes awhile.
Melanie
Heeding Your Advice
Bravo!
I try to eliminate all my grammar, punctuation, and spelling efforts before any of my work is viewed by others. I like Grammarly because there's always a suggestion that I can choose to ignore or accept. (For example, I can never remember whether it's choose or chose). When I want my dialog to sound like a teenager talking, I don't need suggestions that would make them sound like adults.
Maybe you are right and I am drinking the Kool Aide. I hope not. My brain is what makes me unique.
There
is no e in Kool Aid! lol
choose and chose is simple, chose is the past tense, choose is the future/current tense - its not rocket science.
Writing is a bit like playing music, anyone can all play/write badly, it takes practice/skill to play well, only experts can 'play' with either genre - no amount of AI (or whatever you deem to call it this week) will change that. There are examples of all three levels amongst the writers here on BC, some strive to move from level 1 to level 2 and on to level 3, moving from 1 to 2 can be learnt but from 2 to 3 requires experience. It could be argued that this is why many fiction writers have lots of failures before getting published although increasingly i've bought books that struggle to rate as level 2 (not intentionally, you pays your money and takes your chance).
The great thing about BC is that level 1 writers can rub shoulders with level 3 writers, hopefully allowing them to learn as they hone their skills to move upwards. Maybe some have no ambitions to be better, its not compulsory after all. Even the use of a spell checker dumbs down the writing process, we get lazy, relying on the programme to find our errors, take that 'laziness' to the next level and you will put the words down without really thinking how it reads/sounds, after all the AI can 'fix' it.
The best way to hone your writing skills (i'm not talking punctuation/grammar but form and construction) is to read lots and try different styles when you write, some genres require more skills than others and even within genres. The classic example is Science Fiction, but it applies to pretty much any fiction genre. Back when i was learning to write fiction (somewhat before home computers and AI lol) my teachers set out some rules, repetition should only be used for emphasis, avoid long descriptions and never start a sentence with and - okay i may sometimes ignore the last one! Does your AI programme highlight any of these or is it just tidying up the text you typed?
Madeline Anafrid Bell
Also a House Painter
One of my favorite writers was also a House Painter. When I think of who it was....
Gwen Brown
Working
There are too many talented people to acknowledge. Nicki Minaj was a server at Red Lobster. Jeff Koons was a commodity broker. Gwen Stefani works at Dairy Queen. Margot Robbie worked at Subway.
i hope
he didn't write 'Mein Kampf' lol
Madeline Anafrid Bell
I'll pass
My latest version of Word has finally had major improvements in it's grammar and spell check feature. My standard operating procedure is just type as fast as I can, trying to keep up with storyline dump that my muse is spitting out. I wait for my muse to run down and then go back and read from the beginning. The grammar/spell check function has been busy as I type marking my errors.
It's at this point that I consider if the wording conveys that message I want. Being a fiction writer is about being able to paint a word picture that allows the reader a good mind's eye understanding of what something looks like and/or how the characters are dealing with what's going on.
I think that if I had Grammarly running as I wrote my stories it would tend to make me stupid while it polished what I'd written. One of my goals as a writer is to get a better handle on the use of the English language. Somehow, I think, having an AI assistant that cleans up after my sloppy prose would get in the way of achieving that goal.
Back when I was doing some technical writing, I could see that something like Grammarly might have been good, because there I needed absolute clarity and needed it now. I didn't have the luxury of multiple edits and re-reading or a beta reader to help me get it right. I was working to a deadline documenting the how-to of a new, original, custom software package that was being delivered to a customer within the week; sometimes even sooner.
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
Ich bin eine Mann
Grammarly waits to be called on
I agree that interrupting your muse is foolish.
Grammarly waits to be called on. It posts a digital number at the top of what I've written, and if I click on the green, G will start to go through my efforts, allowing me to click Dismiss or Accept single words, punctuation, or structure suggestions.
Because I lack the knowledge or talent to perfect my work on my own, I might rewrite it a handful of times before I sleep on it. I still value my editor bafore I publish.
When I read the suggestions from that dreaded AI (waiting to suck out my soul), I have a choice.
I use Grammarly
I use Grammarly for its industry-leading spell and grammar checking. It's style stuff is hit or miss but I like looking at the suggestions that often inspire me to make other changes. It has some quirks and odd blindspots but it's kind of like having a robot English teacher handy.
It's another tool that can be used or abused, like a sculptor's chisel or a painter's pallet knife. The artistry is in what you do with them, but having them widens your potential in certain ways and narrows it in others.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
I use Grammarly constantly,
I use Grammarly constantly, not only is my spelling horrible, but so is my grammar. I know the basic rules, but I still have issues with grammar. I have even had it rewrite my sentences to they are more clear, why because it does sound better.
I also use AI to help me write stories. I use ChatGPT and several others to help me write, I write the story, then I have it help me fix my grammar, and help me embellish it a bit. Like I might write a happy dog bounds up the stairs, and the AI comes back with the happy dog with its tail wagging bounds up the stairs. In that instance is the AI any different than an editor suggesting you can embellish this section this way. I also don't use what the AI writes as my final draft, I will take what it writes as a suggestion. This is also why I use like 3 or 4 programs. Plus the story is still mine, just written better. Sometimes the AI goes off the deep end, and those parts you can ignore, and other times the section of the writing you give, the AI goes in a direction you never thought about and it makes your mind think, what if? I have had entire stories changed by the AI what if and it has even spurred on new stories.
Too many people think AI is horrible and wrong, but it is a tool and it should be used as a tool, yes if you just say write me this story it will, and those stories are pretty single-dimensional and after using an AI for a long time I can pick out those stories as the AI has a tone that is easy to tell, but if you use to help you improve your writing that is another thing altogether
Not Used Apple
I did try Apple many years ago and did not like their way of relating to me. So, I got on the Microsoft band wagon. About the only word processor I use is MS Word. While it does have its weaknesses, over time it has responded well to my weaknesses. The spell checker is rather weak.
Gwen Brown
Offering a different perspective
I want to offer a different perspective to the “to use or not to use” discussion regarding Grammarly or other similar tools.
Over the years there has been a lot of discussion about the use of spell checkers here on BigCloset. Especially about the blind reliance on spell checkers as to the “correctness” of the text. I remember how sample texts were posted on the blogs and forums that had 0 (zero) errors according to the spell checker but still over 50% of the words were spelled wrong for that context. Then came that “super helpful” but still extremely annoying autocorrect feature built in to the word processors (that now a days can NOT be disabled on the “keyboards” of the so-called smart phones).
Initially the spell checkers were nothing more than a simple word list (and most, if not all, personal dictionaries still are) that flagged every word not included in that list. Eventually, spell checkers started to include a list of rules on how to recognize plurals and compound words. And later still the rules of conjugation and declination. Thus the rate of false positives was drastically reduced. Some languages are better suited to this approach than others. Especially languages that rely heavily on prefixes and suffixes (collectively known as affixes) to form derivative words.
A very good example is the open source HunSpell project. HunSpell is the default spell checker used in FireFox and LibreOffice. And there are dictionaries for way over 200 different languages or dialects freely available for use with HunSpell. Plus there is extensive documentation available on how to build or expand your own dictionary with wordlist and affix rules file.
My first “word processor” on the Commodore C-64 and C-128 had absolutely no spell checker, so any and all creation and editing was 100% powered by the good old Mark 1 biological human brain cells. But never-the-less one of my high school teachers tried to ban my using a computer to write my essays, because of his own ignorance and religious fears of computers based on science-fiction movie portrayals of the late 1970s and early 1980s. As you can imagine that went over like a lead balloon with me, and as a certain cartoon character is wont to say:
In late 1989 I got my first PC-AT (compatible) with MS-DOS 3.0 and started using WordPerfect 5. That was the first time I ever got to use a spell checker! My copy of WP5 came with the English-Canada spell checker. That was a step up. But not as big as you might expect, since I grew up and lived in a tri-lingual environment with German, Spanish and English as the common use languages. In high school the ration was 50/40/10, which in university shifted to 30/55/15, and later in my professional life settled at 30/40/30, while currently sitting at 50/10/40.
With my transition to Windows 3.0 around 1993 also came the switch from WordPerfect to MS-Word 5. The Spanish version of MS-Word came with a spell checker for both Spanish and English-US. (The practice until MS-Office 2000.) In the late 1990s my then employer tried to add the German spell checker to MS-Office 97 then deployed in the whole enterprise. In Paraguay a single license of MS-Office Professional cost about US$ 500, and the German spell checker add-on was supposed to cost around US$ 150 for each PC. (The monthly minimum salary at 200 hours per month was approximately US$ 120. No wonder that piracy was rampant.) We just ended up creating a custom word list to add as a personal dictionary for use as a German spell checker.
When I switched to OpenOffice (later LiberOffice) around 2004 (mainly because I could not afford the MS license fees) I discovered the availability of spell checker dictionaries for multiple languages and dialects. And I have not looked back since then.
Of my main three languages English has the simplest and most flexible grammar rules, while German is the most rigid regarding grammar and sentence structure, and Spanish has the most complex conjugation usage. The last time I checked the availability of grammar checkers for LibreOffice, only English was available.
One tool I have found to be useful and helpful has been the thesaurus. But I have not gotten into the habit of regular use, since most of my writing has been translations of a judicial nature where precision is key. Though a thesaurus is a great tool to help avoid constant repetition of the same term or word.
Please do not get me started on translation software. As a court licensed translator since 1994 I have dabbled with different translation software, and found them all to not really be worth my effort. They do provide a reasonable initial draft, but require a lot of work to get a good translation.
My first issue was that 99% of my source documents came as hard-copy, so I had to type the source text by hand into the translation software. Second I would get a word translation success of only around 50% correct. And the difference in grammar and sentence structure between source and target language made for only about 15% success on that front. So on the cost-benefit analysis it just made more sense to just use the plain old Mark 1 biological brain cells from the get go.
Though I will admit to using some on-line translator tools for suggestions on some complex phrases or more niche vocabulary. And the on-line dictionaries have been a boon at replacing the heavy, cumbersome and expensive dead tree edition dictionaries. Back in Paraguay I had more than 200 cm of shelf space dedicated to various dictionaries.
Since 2017 I have looked into the HunSpell documentation to build a spell checker for my ancestral language of Plautdietsch (a Low-German spoken by Mennonites of Russian descent all over America (from Canada all the way down to Argentina), Germany and Russia (especially Siberia). Since I have been unable to garner meaningful support from linguists, and I have recently struggled with a lot of mental health issues, that project has unfortunately fizzled out to the back burner.
This table shows the size of the dictionary and affix rules files for some language variants I have installed on my system:
Since HunSpell is based on community efforts and contributions there are sometimes considerable variances between variants of the same language. As can be seen between the English variants for Britain, USA, Canada and Australia, or the German variants for Germany, Austria and Switzerland.
Translation process
In a sense translation is also a writing process. But the composition process varies widely between genres and purpose.
The more a source document leans toward the technical side of the spectrum the more rigid and constrained the translation process becomes. And the more it leans toward the creative side of the spectrum, the more flexible and creative the translation process becomes.
A technical document lends itself more easily to machine translation. Especially if the source document employs short declarative sentences and simple grammar. But when the source document is not written with translation in mind, machine translation will render atrocious results! Just look at the current crop of user manuals for consumer electronics manufactured in Asia Pacific. It becomes progressively worse as translations are made from previous [machine] translations. For example: Cantonese → Mandarin → English → Spanish → Catalan
Generally speaking the translation quality of technical documents is lower (often considerably so) than for creative or entertainment documents. This often has to do with shorter schedules and a lower financial risk. Though precisely because of that schedule pressure the translator can charge more for technical documents (including the needed domain language).
I have found that a good translation goes through at least four stages for a good translation result:
Many technical translation barely get to stage 2, let alone stage 3 or beyond. This iterative process is what makes good translations so expensive and only financially feasible for larger print runs.
Plus with creative writing prose you start to run into word pictures or allegories that are culturally loaded, that make translation very difficult. Not to mention that most puns and word plays are simply untranslatable.
For example in English the phrase “pull yourself up by your own bootstraps” is commonly used to mean that you have to use your own efforts to help yourself. In German the corresponding phrase is “sich an den eigenen Haaren herausziehen”, which literally translates to “pull yourself out by your own hairs”.
Or the “joke” about the private secretary of the last dictator of Paraguay, who [supposedly] tried to hang himself after he was sent to buy toothpaste and did not return because of the instruction: “Si no hay Kolinos entonces Colgate.”
Since “Kolinos” was the cheapest brand of toothpaste widely available in Paraguay, the term “Kolinos” had become synonymous with toothpaste. (Similar to “Xerox” for photocopy, “Kleenex” for paper tissues and ”Tampax” for tampons.) Even though “Colgate” is another brand name for toothpaste, in Spanish it is also the second person singular imperative of “colgar”, the verb “hang”. So quite literally “colgate” is the order “hang yourself”.
He was told in essence “if the brand Kolinos is not available then get the brand Colgate”, but he literally understood “if there is no toothpaste available, then go hang yourself”.
As you can see, this highly hilarious joke in the original language AND cultural context falls completely flat when trying to translate it to a different language. How do you handle that kind of situation?
Here is a quote from Richard Campbell (Where does "Artificial Intelligence" comes from? - Richard Campbell):
Translating Jokes
The joke about hanging yourself not only works only in Spanish, but also works better in written Spanish. :) Spoken, colgate (COL-gah-teh) sounds nothing like Colgate. :)
Trying to translate jokes is good exercise if sometimes frustrating. I do it to amuse some of my friends, many of whom do not speak Spanish any better than I. :)
This joke in Spanish probably works only for someone who thinks in English with a dirty mind. :)
Una vez Caperucita Roja está caminando por el bosque, para llevar una cesta de cosillas buenas a su abuela. Caminaba sola cuando un conejo se acercó a ella y le dijo: "Me temo para ti, Roja. Hay un lobo en el bosque y él podría intentar herirte."
"Lo que mejor sería si él no lo probara," dijo Roja. "Por que tengo una pistoleta en la cesta." Ella lo mostró al conejo y él estuvo de acuerdo que estaba bien.
Luego, un pájaro azul aterrizó sobre su hombro y dijo, "Roja, me temo para ti, que causa del lobo." Pero, ella lo mostró la pistoleta al pajáro, y otra vez ellos acuerdan que era una cosa buena de tener.
Roja fue casi en la casa de su abuelita cuando el lobo saltó de los arbustos al lado de ella. "Ay, Roja," él dijo, "eres una joven tan fina con un tan gran culo, creo que voy a joderle allí primero."
Roja sacó su pistola y le apuntó. "Pero no, señor lobo, ya vas a comerme justo como dice la historia."
Con abrazos,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.