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There has been, and probably will continue to be, many arguments on who speaks proper English.
This is not about that.
Recently I have been watching some videos from British pathe. Basically video archives from 1930-1970 ish as well as some other videos, again british, from 80s.
Note I am Canadian and therefore part of the "British/English commonwealth". Ie Queen Elizabeth is our queen monarch as well. Our language is a mix of American, British, and french.
Because of that I have an ear for accents, and from being on the phone for years, I pick up slang easier.
What I can tell the "die hard" I'm from uk and WE speak PROPER English!" is that your bias is just that. Do you speak "proper" English, using your very own standards, NOPE not at all. Why? Let me explain a bit before you get all huffed up.
Between 1930 and 1960 the general language use in the uk changed quite a bit as well as the accents. Not much but they did. 1960 to 1980 they changed again. Not much but noticeable.
Between 1980 and now, almost forty years later, it has a noticeable difference that is quite pronounced.
example 1980 Router was router, now its rooter. At least according to a business advertisement commercial from pine wood studios.
There is so much that changed that people didn't see. This is because, unlike many other languages, English as a whole is an evolving language.
This is just an observation I have made as a whole and find it quite amusing when someone from the UK does the "Bristle snarl" WE speak PROPER English!
Please don't turn this into a flame war. IT IS JUST AN OBSERVATION!
Comments
Not wanting to start a flame, but let me hold up a candle...
Yep there is English and then there is English. While some of you know I'm not a native speaker let alone born British, I do feel with my choosen 'neighbours' about the use of English. However much of it stems from exactly the fact of evolution and I hope that both sides can actually agree on their differences and accept each other versions as correct too. No need to be uptight about it.
However the Queen's English is still that... prim and proper. ;)
Saphira
--
>> There is not one single truth out there. <<
Hold yer Horses
I beg yer pardon, ma'am but my kin and kindred souls across the pond do not speak proper English. When I "try" and talk to them there is absolutely nothing coming out of their mouth I understand. To make it wurse, theys don't understand me either. Now I agree they can write English almost but the have the most annoying way of inserting u into words such as colour, and neighbour. I guess their schools don't teach them proper spelling. I only put two things in the gas tank. Gasoline or white lighting and I have no idea what that petrol stuff they talk about is.
Proper English? More like Mongolian or some sech.
Hugs Tels
Barb
Life is meant to be lived, not worn until it's worn out.
Oklahoma born and raised cowgirl
Petrol?
That's a bird. Kind of an ocean bird (how they build a nest on the water I dunno). Why they'd put birds in their cars is beyond me. I'd think the feathers would plug the gas filter.
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
Barb, you silly girl,
there's English and there's American. The of course there are regional dialects and such funny things as Indians (from India) and Canadians speaking something resembling either. And then there are the antipodes! Aussies and New Zealanders! It's a great big effing mess.
Yet to mix upt they're,there and their is outright silly and a tale is still a tale, not a furry appendix of a pet or the other way round. Precision of speech or babylonic confusion of languages? Take your pic, but I'll stick with Franglais, as they said in the seventies here. giggles madly
Luv ya, Barb, Monique.
Monique S
Ooooh boy!
Sorry to say 'Tels', but this looks as though it is about to turn into a flame war already. What with bad grammar, flawed vocabulary, faulty spelling, double negatives and worse; double prepositions, being advanced as 'proper English' this could get exciting.
This time, I'm just going to lie back to watch and listen to the fire works
Proper English?
Proper English? Gloucester, Worcester, St. Mary's Axe, Ralph, -shire (not so bad), Greenwich, gaol,...
Of course, American English has its own strangeness: the "victuals" standard pronunciation has been bumpkinized. And "pronunciation" is often mispronounced. So is "New Orleans" well away from Louisiana. (Possibly not so much after Hurricane Katrina.)
Who sings the Alphabet Song like this?
A B C D E F GEE,
H I J K L-M-N-O-PEE,
Q R S, T U VEE,
W, X, Y, ZED!
-- Daphne Xu
Rhyming
Well, if you did not sing it that way, how could it rhyme to "now I know my alphabet" ?
After all, this is to teach children the alphabet, not an "abc" (which to me are classes of internationally banned wepaons).
Flame on! ;-)
Rigid (non-native speaker, but educated to use her majesty's english, of course)
Ye olde englshe?
As my learned friend is always pointing out some American English spelling is how the British used to spell way back, check out Charles Dickens. Language evolves, which I accept but one thing that drives me crackers is the rise in inflection at the end of a sentence that turns it into a question. That’s ok for the odd occasion when it is intended but hearing it constantly is just too much.
Glenda Ericsson
Question?
The rise in tone for a question? That's outright standard English. Also, "ye" in "ye olde englishe" is routinely mispronounced. It's properly pronounced "the", however "the" is pronounced.
-- Daphne Xu
Rise in tone for a question
Is correct but is over used making a string of questions instead of statements. Eg, “I go to work on my bike?” , where the rise at the end makes it an unnecessary question. I notice this starting to happen around the start of the century but it has become commonplace now in the UK, particularly for younger folk.
Glenda Ericsson
routing vs. routing
As a systems and network administrator I hate the common mispronounciation of "routing" by CS professionals. It is pronounced "rooting" as that is what should happen: a coordinated direction of data according to plans, not an uncoordinated, disorderly retreat of soldiers (which is what the other routing is about). Ahd the corresponding nouns are "route" vs. "rout"
Of course, learning BE in the 1980s, I was taught the proper, currently valid, pronounciation. ;-)
It always irks me when professionals whose primary subject is the science of information and communication do not make use of every opportunity to communicate clearly, but rather opt to use easily misunderstandable or misinterpretable words and/or pronounciations. That is something for teh arts, where it can be used (intentionally) to very good effect (which I enjoy and plead guilty of, too).
Roots
I grew up about half the time in Missouri, and half in California, surrounded at all times by Arkansawyers.
In Missouri:
root rhymes with foot
route rhymes with boot
rout rhymes with bout
In California:
root rhymes with boot
route and rout rhyme with bout
It's not wrong either way, it just is.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Drove me further over the edge of insanity
All the TV announcers and TV shows called it Root Sixty Six. I screamed at them I lived on Route Sixty Six not a weed or tree root. Didn't do any good. Them easterners aren't that far removed from the British and talk funny. When we were in Tennessee there was a gal from Nu Jousey lived next door. I never did understand what she was saying. Jean had to translate for me as she explained the gal was from New Jersey.
Donald Trump drives me over the edge to hear him speak. To sound like him, pull in your cheeks, pooch out your lips and start talking. Definitely eastern, maybe all the eastern coastal states all rolled into one? Thank God for the rest of the nation where they didn't get contaminated by the British and know how to pronounce their words.
By the way Erin, did you get the wine spill wurshed out of that green dress you wore to the party last week?
Hugs hon
Barb
Life is a gift, don't waste it.
Oklahoma born and raised cowgirl
Scream more
There is two songs that also say root 66. Seems area affect, or effects how route is said. I'm Canadian we use both.
Seriously in one sentence we say take this rout here or take that root there to get to X.
You shouldn't be going to X,
you should be going to Wayland
Show me!
You can never trust Missourians with how to pronounce anything. I've lived here my entire life and they can't even decide how to pronounce Missouri. :P
Strangely enough, I pronounce the two words the way they're pronounced in Cali. Strictly speaking, I will go to Sonic to get a Route 44, would rhyme with, I swallow two tonics to forget about portly Thor.
Sure the second phrase doesn't make a lot of sense, but neither does slapping "uh" on the end of a state name that ends with an I. :P
~Taylor Ryan
My muse suffers from insomnia, and it keeps me up at night.
I think it's pronounce the
I think it's pronounce the same way as "Misery". The original settlers just couldn't spell.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
giggle
You have a very large industry, as well as the inventor, to argue with about that.
That is not my concern in this blog.
I just pointed out that in the 80's uk pronounced it Rout-er and now its rooter.
Darling,
a router is a carpentry tool and a router is something to direct bits into the right wire, if I am not mistaken. Rooting, on the other hand is conneting itself to the soil by a plant. Want any more confusion? Ask a German what a handy is. Rofl.
Monique.
Monique S
Pronunciation
Route is pronounced r-out. Root is what a plant or tree has(or in impolite company akin to the f-word. ie.the washing machine is rooted. He/she is a good root). Hence rooting is something you do in bed(preferably) :-)
On colour - well it's no contest to that washed out similar word
ROFL
Jo
Do I disagree? Of course!
The 'e' on the end is what makes the difference.
English has rules, it is just that almost everyone uses them without even realising they are there.
Putting an 'e' on the end of a word lengthens the vowel before the preceding consonent.
Try it. Bit -> Bite. Bat ->Bate. Cam -> Came. Not -> Note. Cut -> Cute. Pet -> Pete. And so on[1].
Another way of doing that would be to double the preceding vowel, but that won't work for all cases, or would give you the wrong sound.
The problem with 'route', specifically, is that the spelling has the affectation the British had in the 18th-19th centuries for things French, so it has a surplus 'u' in it like so many other words. On the other hand, if it hadn't, it would have spelt 'rot', not the same thing at all. 'rote' doesn't work either, so maybe 'route' is the best of a bad attempt to get over the sound.
Spelling it like that means that everyone can make their own mind up how to pronounce it, and most do.
Incidentally, as a retired IT person who has been wrangling hardware since the '70s I can tell you that in England I have never heard it pronounced anything other than 'rooter', even by the phone people when they were still called Post Office Telephones.
Penny
[1] No, of course it doesn't work everywhere. English is a mongrel language. So sue me.
You're All Wrong
You bloody Brits and Amurricans have this Imperial approach to how English should be spoke. We Aussies are the only ones who speak true English (although the Kiwis come close). You all have funny accents.
Rout(e)
Three different words here.
1. 'Route' is a French loanword, referring to the path someone travels. It is properly pronounced to rhyme with 'shoot', as that is the original pronunciation. A 'router' (rhymes with shooter) is a computing device to route ('root') an internet connection, etc.
2. 'Rout' is pronounced to rhyme with 'out'. Its first meaning is as a noun and as a transitive verb. A 'rout' occurs when one side routs the opposition in a battle, defeating them in such a way that morale, discipline and order collapse, and the cry "Sauve qui peut!" is heard from the routed side.. Think "RUN AWAY!"
3. 'Router'. also pronounced to rhyme with 'out', is a tool used to 'rout'. In this sense, routing describes widening a hole already drilled or to produce a recess.. As an example, when using flat-headed screws in woodwork, they may be countersunk. The tool used to shape the edges of the hole in order to allow this is called a 'router'. They can be specialised planes, but the most common these days resemble fat drill bits. A similar process is used for metalwork, called 'milling'.
I love this!
Thank you all!!
I love discussions/flame wars/arguments like this one because I always learn so much and I love learning new things.
As a child I lived primarily in Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, and Mississippi with one 4 month time period. I believe we moved about 30 times before I was 18 years old. I went to 13 different school systems in 6 years. When I turned 18, I joined the Air Force to settle down. During my 25 year career I was only in 26 different places. I still have problems trying to pronounce when I read, even when I know their meanings. Discussions like this show me how much I missed out on when learning how to read as we skipped around. I have gone to three different school systems in three different states twice - I know why I have gaps in my education, so thank you all for filling in some to the empty places.
Jeri
Jeri Elaine
Homonyms, synonyms, heterographs, contractions, slang, colloquialisms, clichés, spoonerisms, and plain old misspellings are the bane of writers, but the art and magic of the story is in the telling not in the spelling.
Hey, don't forget
The above discussion really only applies to normal English, written or spoken.
When you are talking about names of people or places, all bets are off!
Keep very quiet until you find out how that person/family/locals pronounce the names, or you will instantly put your foot in it!
Penny
oh yeah
Cookna doesn't show on any map, its just outside Northampton (the real one not any of the imposters), Beechuff had me scratching my head when I first moved to Sheffield but the one that gets my ire is Grinitch, it isn't Green Witch, or Gren-idge, 3 generations of my family were born and lived there so we should know how to pronounce it! And the Antipodeans can fall foul of this, the Australian couple looking for Loo-ba-roo had a lot of people stumped until they spelt it out (its actually Loughborough, pronounced by most people Luff-burra).
Often weirdly spelt/pronounced family names are a result of accent and/or laziness which has fossilised a spelling - Singent (St John) is one such, there are many more. Of course this can be exacerbated when someone uses a phonetic spelling of a name (for any number of reasons), Bough becomes Buff, others lose letters that normally define pronounceation or meaning.
And lets not even start on 'misheards', quotes that become gibberish when a wrong spelling or word creeps in, what the hell is a 'pon pon'? sounds Chinese to me lol (Pom-pom, also called a pom, is derived from the French word pompon, which refers to a small decorative ball made of fabric or feathers. It also means an "ornamental round tuft" and originally refers to its use on a hat, or an "ornamental tuft; tuft-like flower head.") and with that insight, i'll leave you all from ere in Brizzle.
Madeline Anafrid Bell
Is that...
... the Grinitch who stole Christmas?
-- Daphne Xu
Let's throw another log on the fire...
Or perhaps, fyre.
In the English language, as well as Frisian and Old Scots, grammar is the only thing that has stayed reasonably stable for the last 1300 years. Spelling has changed, the great vowel shift is -still- happening in some areas of America ('pretty solid', in Rochester, is now 'party salad'), and words stolen from other languages has happened in all three of the 'English' sub-grouping. (Old Scots has a lot of old Gaelic/Irish in it, Frisian a lot of western Germanic words, and we all know about English and French) (We won't talk about Welsh)
Most of what people are complaining about in this thread, it seems to me, is the effects of the great vowel shift. I'm not going to explain it, there's a few good lectures on it on YouTube, one of the best was by a Dutchman, (Nederlander) although his accent made explaining the vowels even more of a hoot.
Roughly, 'bow' and 'bough' are pronounced the same way - and two different ways - because of that vowel shift. Same with 'draught', 'slough', 'house', etc.
So, at this point, British English is just as messed up as American English - just in a different direction. Let alone the difference between Received Pronunciation, Cockney rhyming slang, Liverpudlian, and let's not forget the Geordies.
For that matter, most South Africans I've worked with sound just about the same as the Brits.
(this is coming from a dual citizen, Canadian/American, living in Houston, with family in the most Irish sounding area of Canada I know of - the Upper Ottawa Valley. My father was watching drone overflights of Ireland while we saw Celtic Women in concert, and his comment was "No wonder they settled there (Ottawa). It looked like home!" )
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
Vowel shift
An excellent example are the words 'work, bird, burn'. In the NE, where my character Jimmy Kerr* is from, they all use the vowel sound in 'four'. That is the original Anglo-Saxon/OE pronunciation. The word 'four' is itself pronounced to rhyme with 'tower/bower'. and 'walk' to rhyme with park (think Bostonian 'park' for colonials].
As a result, there are plenty of places in England that used to be spelled '-burn' but, retaining the original vowel sound, have changed the spelling. See Eastbourne, Bournemouth, Winterbourne, etc.
As an example of NE (original) vowels:
Geordie calls the doctor about his bad back.
"How bad is it, George? Can you still walk?"
"Work, Doctor? I can't even walk!"
*Pronounced "Carr"
How will we explore the Stars?
It's gotten better in the passing years. It used to be that the Language "People" went about with their dictionaries waiting to find someone to pounce upon. Personally, I am thrilled when one my favorite Wordsmiths waxes eloquent in some version of old English, or some such.
Of course I never learned to diagram a sentence.
Gwen