I am not sure who reads my blogs or whether people go back to read my replies, so I am starting a new conversation on this topic.
In a recent blog I received these comments:
Alys9 said: One category of story I find unsatisfying ... where the new girl suddenly and thoroughly becomes nicer, cleverer, and often better looking and more skilled than the better-practised real-girls who have become her friends. It just exaggerates and makes the story unlikely.
Kez said: "I also find it bizarre that so many stories also promote such a stereotype of how to act like a girl. Dresses, makeup, nails, breasts etc. I know so many flat chested girls, tomboys, athletes etc but do many books seem to ignore this and seem to want to make their characters into the perfect stereotype of the most popular girl in the school"
My response was:
"Just another thought arising out of a couple of comments...
The stories where the new girl outdoes the "real-girls" may be unlikely, but I think that is the fantasy that many of us have.
Does this mean that we are projecting stereotypes?
If you read "The Transsexual Empire" by Janice Raymond then the answer is definitely yes. That is a book that argues that Transgender people like us would not exist but for the gender stereotypes imposed by men for their own benefit.
Is that right? Kez worries that we are perpetuating these stereotypes, perhaps as witless pawns.
Perhaps the author's most famous quote is: "All transsexuals rape women's bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating this body for themselves".
What do we think about that?"
I have to say that I am definitely in the "vive la difference" camp, and I don't feel guilty about it.
Should I?
Maryanne
Feminine Stereotypes
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Comments
"new girl suddenly and
"new girl suddenly and thoroughly becomes nicer, cleverer, and often better looking and more skilled than the better-practised real-girls who have become her friends"
It is often very true for the simple reason that TGs have a lot more to prove to others and even themselves and being more traditionally feminine helps with being accepted. I know from personal experience that the better you look the less likely you are to be harassed or discriminated against even if they know you're a TG and you can get away with so much more. Even now almost 20 years after my so called transition out of all shoes i own I only have one pair of flats (running shoes) and I never leave house without makeup. That's the thing, TGs so often beat GGs at their own game not because they're somehow superior, but because to them being feminine isn't a given and so they cant afford to take it for granted and put 10 times as much effort in to it.
"That is a book that argues that Transgender people like us would not exist but for the gender stereotypes imposed by men for their own benefit"
This claim seems entirely pointless, if stereotypes were different or imposed by "evil aliens" and not men it still wouldn't change the fact that some minority of people from one group would identify itself as being a part of another group altogether and if those groups were gender based you'd get "trans-gendered"
"All transsexuals rape women's bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating this body for themselves" - is another garbage statement, the whole concept of "appropriation" is a fallacy. The evolution of every culture on earth is based on "appropriation" all cultures take things from other cultures - its natural. When anyone talks about any kind of appropriation all i sense is insecurity and an inferiority complex. When one culture adopts from another it isn't stealing it's the ultimate acknowledgment of superiority (at least of the part that's being adopted) It makes me laugh that the very people that complain about stereotypes are the ones that that complain "appropriation" - one of major the ways stereotypes meld with one another and change.
GG have nothing to prove
Why do we see GG who look like they dressed from the Salvation Army cast offs? Their color co-ordination in doubt or they are color blind? They have nothing to prove and usually don't care. There are unbelievable wow GG out there who do care and they look runway model beautiful. But face it, it's work to look that good and most don't care. For example guys in cargo pants, tee shirt, hasn't shaved are NOT Walmart stand outs. They are the common crowd.
We, or at least I, have studied every single feature of what makes a woman beautiful. Every small detail from the top of her head to the bottom of her feet. How each good looking woman, each beautiful woman manages to give that impression.
The one single factor is they care how they look. They took the time and put the effort into looking beautiful. Most every single trans I know has that factor.
And when we write stories who wants to read about the daily life of the milk maid or the motel house cleaning lady?
hugs
Barb
Oklahoma born and raised cowgirl
GGs
You can generalize that all women who pass as women.
Sigh, this is such an old discussion, really.
I am admittedly among the lucky ones who are reasonably pretty even without surgery on the face and am on the slender side of things even now.
I was very pretty in my prime but having lived full time for thirty years I am pretty chill about the whole presentation thingy, now that I am in my middle years.
Like other posters have said, it is a lot of work to look femininely ‘perfect’ all of the time and I quickly gravitated to neat, clean or sometimes dressy casual as my comfort zone as I just am not that type of woman. Being a child of an immigrant mother whose only makeup was a lipstick, I did not see makeup was relevant. Dressing up really nice once in a great while was okay but that is it.
Being womanly is a synergistic combination of looks, voice, attitude, personality etc.
Women have it in various proportions and make it their own. Borrowing from mathematics, call it woman space (separate from the strictly women-to-women interaction, also called woman space, mind) if you will. Just live it would be my philosophy.
The main affirming thing non-GGs won’t experience, unless one is also intersex, is that we will likely never give birth given current technology. Yes, yes, plenty of GGs will never experience that too so maybe even that is optional in woman space.
For me, the spirit must be there to ‘be’, else woman space is not really for you.
Janice Raymond
Professor Raymond is a radical lesbian feminist. If there is one thing that she must hate more than men it is imperialists. By that she would be referring to an elite (here men) which dominates and manipulates the rest - hence the "Empire" in the title of her book.
But in a genderless world would transsexuals of any kind exist? I would be interested to hear views.
The point about the female form as an artifact is the notion that men have created their own view of the ideal woman, and some want to be just that, and therefore appropriate (seek to acquire or occupy) the female body.
Interesting, Raymond's analysis takes no account for FTM transsexuals.
Anyway, the point is that as a human being I appreciate and value the differences between men and women, despite the obvious difficulty I face for myself.
Maryanne
So many years back
The Professor whom I loved reading her stories was dragged over the coals by several readers for not writing the stories the way they wanted. With venom in my reply I responded they weren't paying for the story to be written. If they wanted a story written specifically telling the tale their way send me a synopsis of what they wanted. Depending on the length of the story, again their choice, the price would be anywhere from a thousand dollars up. I would need the payment before I began. The price included three partial rewrites and they could put their name as the author when it was finished.
They never responded? Strange that.
Does everyone like the same dress? The same car? The same shoes? Why do some readers expect a story written to please them specifically?
Human behavior, no one can please a hundred percent of the people no matter who they are.
hugs hon,
always
Barb
Oklahoma born and raised cowgirl
Amen
EOM
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Maybe just living new reality
transgender activist Jennifer Finney Boylan was on NPR's Fresh Air today. I admit I was paying more my attention to my pork chop than what she was saying but I understood her to say that for a while after she transitioned she was very much more of a girly girl than her wife as she was trying all the things her wife had experimented with as a teen. It wasn't that she needed those things to be female but that she had to find her own expression of femininity. Genetic females already have their self identity confirmed. They have picked and chosen the traditionally female behaviors that fit them
Mind the can, and don't step on the worms.
I can't personally speak to the first comment about the "new girl" being better than the other girls. I like to explore the failures as well as the triumphs with each character. And I honestly can't think of a single story I've read with that sort of trope.
The "stereotypical girl" mentioned, however, is usually a large aspect of my stories. Not so much because I disagree with the fact that there are "flat chested girls, tomboys, athletes," but because of my personal experiences with the female side of the spectrum. One of the first things I remember experiencing (and really liking) is painting my nails. It's one of those subtle things that speaks to me on a personal level, and does have the tendency to stir up feminine imagery. I've made it a rather prominent experience in one of my stories posted here, and it's something that sticks with the character when self-doubt sets in.
Another thought I have comes from Kez's comment, mixed with the quote from Janice Raymond. I don't associate actions done, with types of women. The two are not the same. Are we really saying that those "flat chested girls, tomboys, athletes" cannot explore "dresses, makeup, nails, breasts?" Can those "flat chested girls, tomboys, athletes" not be, or even desire to be the "popular girl?" Is the lack of "dresses, makeup, nails, breasts" holding them back?
A dress normally won't make a tomboy any less tomboyish. They'll still try to scale a tree with one on. Makeup and nails won't make a flat chested girl suddenly sprout boobs. Breasts only hamper a few athletes' careers as far as I know. (I think of gymnasts.) You can mingle and match what you'd like, but there are very few crossroads here. Even flat chest getting breasts doesn't necessarily alter who she is.
Then I think; is it even stereotypical? Setting body types and such aside... Do more women wear dresses than men in civilized societies? Is makeup worn predominately by women, outside of theater/television? Do more women get their nails done than men? Do more women tend to have breasts? Why are all of these questions answered with a resounding yes?
Society sets standards or "stereotypes." This is true. However, are stereotypes of this nature even inherently bad? Or are they simply the standard we've progressed to thus far? I personally like to look as pretty as possible, and look to those so called "stereotypes" as guidance. That's not for everyone. I understand that. But I don't find them a hindrance to some greater progressive society either. In fact, I feel they can be built upon, rather than cast aside. It's the same reason we bathe, brush our teeth, or run a comb/brush through our hair. We usually strive to look our best. We set our own personal beauty standards. Is it because we want to look good for society? Or because it makes us feel good?
Who's to say?
As far as these stereotypes being in TG fiction... I feel it's a good thing. What would you replace them with? A lot can be said about feeling womanly or manly. Whatever defines that is up to the individual. But if putting on a dress, makeup, or nail polish can move someone on an emotional level, what is the harm in that? And what is wrong with a character struggling to live up to that standard?
~Taylor Ryan
My muse suffers from insomnia, and it keeps me up at night.
Definition
We all live according to norms. We wait for the "Walk" sign. We cover our noses when we sneeze.
These are widely held codes of behavior which allow a society to function for the good of all.
Society has created different norms that define the sexes - so what?!
Define "stereotype": "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing".
So what?!
Maryanne
It's all in the perception.
While it is true that when we write about a trans person, we tend to present them in a way that will make it plain that they've crossed over the gender line. (Which by the way I think is a very fuzzy line)
I, for one, tend to write most of my stories in first person and the view of the presentation of the protagonist is from their own perception. My most popular story here, both from number of hits and kudos, involves a young man who, after getting himself into a fix that requires him to dress, sets out to out feminine his tomboyish neighbor and his sister. In his perception, he's nailing it. He is seen and accepted as a girl by neighbors and the public at large. He originally was required to do so for only a week, but due to the fact he babysat for an neighbor down the street, had to extend the time to keep babysitting. In his/her mind, he was passing totally. But at the close of the story, it's revealed to him/her that no one who had one on one experience with him/her didn't realize that under it all he was he, not even the child whom he babysat.
I think that story expresses a reality. At least it seems to mirror my personal experience. It certainly expresses my hope. That is that those I have one on one contact with would see me as I am, at transgendered individual and accept me as the gender I aspire to.
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
Ich bin eine Mann
You Nailed It
E O M
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
My 2 cents
Late commenting as usual. I'm in agreement with many of the comments above. I just wanted to relay my experience with a person, born male, who was announcing he was transitioning to the female gender. I had several long face to face talks with this person a few years ago. Tall; deep bass voice; never wore distinctly feminine clothes (jeans and an old T-shirt every time we met); no jewelry or make-up; no plans for counseling/meds/surgery; wasn't really concerned that all who saw and interacted with her identified her as male. She mainly wanted to become a female legally - for what purpose, she was never too clear. I was confused as to what her goals were, but after further questioning she really couldn't elaborate them for me. It was my first and only person I've met who wanted to be trans legally without changing anything about her presentation.
I still am confused about this experience. Anyone else here with a similar one?
Hugz! - **Sigh**
Sighs are the natural language of the heart.
-Thomas Shadwell
An author can avoid
An author can avoid stereotypes by writing stories that run counter to the stereotype, are in the future or past, in a different culture than "American" or are truly alien. Ask yourself what would your character do differently if everyone had the same uniform, was treated the same by society, and occupations were interchangeable.
Late reply
I'm another late to reply ( it was my comments on stereotypes that was quoted). I will say that my original comment has probably had more read into it than meant, although it has got me thinking about what I meant to convey. This one probably won't convey what I mean either because I'll read someone else's comments and think 'I didn't mean that' or 'I wish I'd thought of that'
I think what I was trying to say as a GG to a TG is that every person is different, and that you don't have to master heels, makeup, hair and wear dresses to be a girl or be seen as a girl.
In a lot of stories this seems to be a large part of the plot. In most cases I enjoy the stories and don't think too much about it. Where I usually have a mental hiccup is when well meaning outsiders force their idea of what it means to be a girl on them Eg short skirts/bikinis etc or make comments like every girl can wear 5+ inch heels or takes care of their nails or learnt xyz as a child. As a GG I'll say to the TG that is not the case. Everyone grows up in different environments and also as individuals. I have 3 teen nieces and only one of them will wear a dress without a lot of coaxing. Two have mastered makeup, but the other flatly refused to wear more than lip gloss. Two are sports fanatics (one wants to go pro (proud aunt brag)). I could go on, but you get the idea.
I think I've probably strayed from the original topic..
To the authors - I know these works are fiction/fantasy and I appreciate that you share your stories with us, so don't take this as a criticism.
Transitional Elements
I did my thing, many years ago. Here is what I learned:
I have ugly legs. Heels make them look better but then I am hopelessly tall.
I love the idea of dresses but I always needed to be careful to conceal my big shoulders.
I like makeup, but it is easily overdone. I learned that good skin and mascara is the key - lip gloss is for teenagers.
Properly maintained healthy hair well styled counts for alot.
Then I opened my mouth and everything seemed to come undone.
My stories are a lot about what was impossible for me.
No apologies for that.
Maryanne
Most fiction
Most fiction is genre fiction, meaning it deals in stereotypes, tropes, and formulas. TG fiction is the same; most TG fiction is written according to formulas and deals in stereotypes and tropes. This is what readers enjoy most; generally predictable fiction that hits the points they like to have it hit.
Non-formula fiction (there's very damn little of this, anywhere, btw) is harder to read and isn't necessarily better, by any standard, than formulaic genre stuff. Twisting the formulas, playing with the tropes, and finding new angles on the stereotypes are what the good authors of genre fiction do.
This is all great stuff to talk about, yet some facts remain true throughout the discussion. Readers are going to look for the sort of stories that they have enjoyed in the past, and writers will write what they think their readers (meaning themselves as primary example) want to read.
Good discussion here. :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.