So, I was not vitally interested in the Pope's visit but did hear that he had something to say about transgender folk. Avoiding the hype and hate crowd, I didn't look it up until this morning. It seems that T folk were compared to be Atom Bombs. Is that all bad?
So, does anyone know what he actually said? I can't seem to penetrate the media fog to see. I did find one youtube video that seemed promising but it was the usual ignorant bile.
Thinking about being the bombs that the Pope said we are, if I could choose where I was going to be dropped, where would we go? Well surely Washington DC, Moscow, Beijing, Rome, would be gonners. So, what about New York, London, is that all?
I'm going to forget this and go muddle around with my sink full of dirty dishes, and get some breaky...
Gwen
Comments
Pope's Words Are Filtered
It is very important to understand that the pope's words come to you through filters. When you read what he said about transgendered it is someone's interpretation of what he said. One of the reasons he came to the United States was to make sure his words weren't misinterpreted. The Catholic church is very conservative. You can be assured that the interpreters are hearing what they want to hear and giving us THEIR interpretation.
The pope is all about the Golden Rule. He preaches love and compassion.
Don't sell him short.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
I absolutely concur with Jill
I absolutely concur with Jill's assessment. The reports have been based on some rather 'interesting' articles and it takes a bit of digging and analysis to get to the truth (as far as one can when using the Internet).
Whilst there are still (very) significant elements within the Catholic church that are not as supportive as we might wish, the current pope is most certainly not as doctrinaire on transgender issues as most (if not all) his predecessors have been.
A useful (and remarkably honest) view of the Catholic church's official attitude to transsexualism may be found here. It suggests that they are moving faster than when the church tried to burn Galileo.
Persephone
Non sum qualis eram
Breaking up the status quo
Jesus said, "I came not to bring peace but a sword".
Very Interesting
It is my belief that the Catholic church is sitting on a ticking bomb with its exclusionary attitudes towards women.
It would be impossible for the church to embrace gender fluidity and remain mired in the muck of treating women as second class citizens.
This might have prompted his remarks.
Pope Francis is all about inclusiveness. Yet, he knows that if he pushes too quickly the church will explode. He is already unpopular in many factions within the church. He asks to be prayed for quite often. My guess would be that he needs help to maintain his course of action. His views are complex, because they have to be, but his priorities seem to be:
1.) Lead the world to follow the Golden Rule. The Golden Rule is embraced by most major religions. If you follow the Golden Rule most other things fall into place. Wouldn't the world be much better for us if people were more compassionate?
2.) Lead more people to embrace the Catholic church, especially those who have left it.
3.) Repair the damage done by his predecessors.
4.) Change the church to reflect reality.
He wants to change the church and he is listening, but it is his fourth priority.
This is strictly my opinion of the man.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
This Is Old News
"Pope Francis has been criticised for reportedly comparing the gender theory arguments that underpin transgender rights to nuclear weapons.
"Francis criticised theories that consider people's gender identity as not fixed and as instead a construct created by society, which are often used to advocate trans rights.
"His remarks came just a month after he reportedly embraced a transgender man who asked him if he still had a place in the 'house of God'.
"In an interview...the Pontiff compared gender theory to genetic manipulation and nuclear arms...
"He said every historical period has 'Herods' that destroy, that plot designs of death, that disfigure the face of man and woman, destroying creation..."
From The Independent, 21 February 2015
The article goes on to explain that the interview was conducted with Italian journalists the previous October, but had not at first been picked up by the English-speaking press.
My interpretation of this poorly worded report - in conjunction with more recent press releases - is that Pope Francis, whilst capable of feeling genuine compassion towards individuals who share his faith, has nevertheless decided to adhere to the deeply conservative stance the Vatican has adopted on gender issues.
As an aside, I can't help wondering if 'gender as a social construct' really helps the transgender cause. Is it not the case that the overwhelming majority of people who transition do so despite their upbringing? If I'm guilty of an error here please feel free to correct me.
I remember the day.
I remember the day. I was about 4 years old. I sat there in the living room that was heated by a wood stove that was so hot that it was red in places and "jumping". I looked around the room full of the family, all 7 of us, sitting on wooden chairs and crates; no carpet, just bare wood plank floors that had been worn smooth from traffic. The cigarette smoke was so thick and stratified that I could lay on the floor and look up through the layers. I was sitting by mom, with Gloria on the left side of me. The men and boys were sitting around the room. As hot as the stove was the room was still cool and drafty. I remember the rough angry tones of my step father, and the calm soothing speech of my mother. My sister was mostly quiet.
It was like an important epiphany, a sudden light. I looked at the males in the room, "they are icky and I will never be like them". Then I looked at Mom and Gloria, "I like them, I will be like them". The decision was final and though the years would be really hard and traumatic at times, I never violated that decision in my heart. I remember the first time I met the step father, when I was around 2 1/2. I had long hair and a pretty blue dress. I heard him yelling at Mom in the other thing and was not experienced enough to be afraid of him. Then he suddenly came into the room yelling at me. He grabbed me and tore my clothing off, all the while screaming irrational epithets. He cut my lovely hair off that day, hurting me often and when he got done I was nearly bald. Those beatings and angry criticisms never stopped for the next 10 years. He often beat me unconscious. I have a scar in the left frontal lobe of my brain; due to that abuse? I do not know. One day, he was about to beat me and I picked up a hatchet and went at him. He took it and beat me anyhow, but something had broken in me and I said, "You have to sleep sometime". He got a funny look on his face and never touched me again.
I forgot all about that earlier promise to myself because of his beatings and beratings for most of my life.
When I came out in 2004, the pot had been stewing, forgotten ever since 1961. In my fantasies I thought that I could become a woman and find a man that would love me, hold me, comfort me, whom I could cook for and obey. It is now clear that will never happen. Men do not want women like me. One even said I was too much of a hand full. I wish he could have given me a chance to be obedient to him, but he didn't. He never wrote to me again, saying that I pushed him away. Why did he not give me a chance? This is the lament of many of us. I and my sisters are together in this.
Lately it is more clear that my fate is not to be mated to a man that will love me, comfort me and help me to obey. My fate is to speak the truth as fervently as I can, to try to lead people to understanding, to anger them if necessary, and then to die.
Okee dokee
So just another social conservative who wants to hem us in then by denying our validity.
I am go glad I am not an adherent to one particular faith anymore.
Okay a little off but my intentions are good ....
The Pope is conservative, he is religious and he is not NICE to the LGBT community. I have read many of his comments about the community and have concluded ... I am spiritual. I believe in a God, and I believe in a lot more. I do not believe their/his God is my God. Nor do I believe their/his God exists. My simple reasoning ... he/they judge and he (and his church) forgives heterosexuals of most if not all sins.
Why do I say this ... mainly because I will not let others define me. I am me. I am me. If I am wrong ... I will be wrong. If they are wrong ... they will be wrong. The issue is one of magnitude. If I am wrong I only effect myself and a small group of people. If he is wrong ... oh my ... ouch.
So, I will be me, and try to be the best me I can be. I will let everyone else be who they are ... and pray kindness and love returns to the world.
Here is a really good article that explains the Pope's views ... at least as they were. http://qz.com/511809/pope-francis-is-not-a-progressive-he-ju...
Kendra Manderscheid
(One step at a time is working)
Pope's reoccuring theme about transgender
This US visit isn't the first time he has said transsexuals do not preserve God's order of creation. The take on the atom bomb and transsexuals is they are only capable of destroying not creating.
google it this way without quotations "pope transexuals are not of God they are nuclear destroy creation"
Not a big help for all those caught up in the boy-girl gender blender trying to understand their life. Every single one of them needs to understand God loved them so much He gave each of them a double dose of boy-girl.
Believe, don't believe, not my place to judge anyone.
always,
Barb
Oklahoma born and raised cowgirl
This from the guy
who has supposedly taken a vow of celibacy! Religion may be seen as a nuclear bomb as well and probably destroyed more lives than either of the two dropped on Japan.
Angharad
What's wrong with celibacy?
I've been celibate, by nature, my whole life.
Nothing At All
Nothing at all, but anyone who chooses to be celibate for religious reasons should be slow to criticise other people's sexual behaviour.
The actual quote
Let’s think of the nuclear arms, of the possibility to annihilate in a few instants a very high number of human beings.
Let’s think also of genetic manipulation, of the manipulation of life, or of the gender theory, that does not recognize the order of creation.
With this attitude, man commits a new sin, that against God the Creator.
Notice anything missing from that quote?
I have no idea what his actual beliefs are, but I do not believe he is about to lead a Crusade against transexuals any time soon.
Ignoring Science
Just got back from my endocrinologist.
The pope totally ignored the Intersex population, which I think that many transgender folk are. Religion will be forcibly dragged, kicking and screaming into the 21st century.
Gwen
The problem is...
What does the Pope mean by "gender theory"? And how much is changed by translation errors.
"Gender Theory"
There are two possibilities for what he means by "gender theory." The first is the belief in parts of the feminist community that gender is completely a social construct, and hence malleable. This viewpoint is rather obviously not held by the transgender community.
The second is held by a large swath of the transgender community, that says that gender identity is not a simple male-female binary, but is more nuanced even if it is not particularly malleable.
Both of these essentially break traditional gender roles in one way or another, so it's not all that significant which one he means. He may even mean both.
The pope is a firm believer in traditional Catholic doctrine - how could he be anything else? Catholic doctrine is firmly on the side of traditional sex and gender identity: there are two sexes: male and female, and in proper order each of them has distinct social roles. Anything else is disordered, and the person so afflicted needs to deal with it without further disturbing the "natural" order. In the case of gays and lesbians, he's on record as saying that this means they are called to celibacy. I don't know what he said specifically about transgender, but I expect it's pretty much the same: deal with it without disturbing the natural social order. That means no sex changes, no crossdressing, etc.
Anyone who thought he would have any other viewpoint, was, in my opinion, guilty of wishful thinking.
Xaltatun
That's the thing
As far as I could find, he has NOT mentioned transexualism at any time recently, only "gender theory."
There is a big difference between the feminist idea of gender theory, and the idea that gender does not equal sex (noun).
Traditional Catholic Doctrine is also big on forced conversion and a lot of other things that no longer happen.
Gender and faith?
From where I am standing, it takes some pretty obtuse mental gymnastics to somehow connect gender and faith no matter what the denominations.
I simply accept that there is no such thing as a sky pixie created by men in the image of men. This acceptance enables me to avoid religion at all levels and thus remain sane.
Catholicism and gender
It's quite likely, as someone mentioned above, that the Pope believes in the gender binary whereby the gender you're assigned at birth is the gender you must carry through to death - although individuals who are intersex (I still prefer that term to the medical community's currently preferred "disorders of sexual development", which while technically accurate, is a heck of a mouthful and the word "disorder" could be seen as loaded).
However, regardless of his personal beliefs, his duty is to lead the Catholic Church, which has a significant number of both clergy and laity who have very conservative views on gender and sexuality - even extending to social gender roles. If a Pope appeared who embraced gender equality, he'd likely face the prospect of a schism.
After all, when the Anglican communion first started ordaining women, the Catholic Church welcomed a bunch of clergy into the "Personal Ordinariate", a special organisational structure dedicated to disaffected Anglicans; while at the last Lambeth Conference, 250 of the 800 bishops did not attend as they viewed the then Archbishop of Canterbury (Rowan Williams) as too liberal, while the current incumbent (Justin Welby) has proposed weakening the links between the various Anglican Churches so they can follow divergent paths without being either told off or splitting away to form (yet another) denomination - e.g. the US Episcopal Church welcomes homosexuals, while many African Churches not only forbid it, but put pressure on their countries' governments to outlaw it or even (in the case of Uganda) impose capital punishment.
As the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only left-handers are in their right mind!
No gender says Endocrinologist?
I had a very interesting chat with an Endocrinologist today. She agreed that the prevalence of intersex is much higher than most know. I have always felt that transgender folk, especially those who go on to SRS and all that have an undiagnosed intersex condition going. It is just my gut feeling.
I do not know where masturbatory drives come into play and I am not casting aspersions on anyone who does what they do for that reason, clear?
Trust yourself
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/the-popes-take-on-tra...
Here is the Pope's take on Trans issues. Typical cis sexism and trans misogyny.
He is not to be trusted. Be careful.
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
Pope & atom bombs...
Well that IS paying a rather high compliment to TGs!
Just think, merely for being TG, someone "high up there" thinks you're "the bomb!!"
>;D