Okay, before I even start on this, I'm gonna lay down some ground rules.
This topic is NOT for bashing stories or story types that people don't like.
All discussion needs to take place in a calm, RESPECTFUL manner from both sides of the argument.
Now that that's out of the way, here's the deal.
I want a thorough, honest explanation of what the attraction of forced femme is.
Today I started trying to read a story. I like stories about cheerleaders and gymnastics, so the first couple of chapters I really liked, even when it got obvious the girls were being pretty pushy about things with the main character. Then came the part where his sister lied about him being transsexual to force him onto the cheer squad, and told him that the entire squad would blame him and get him in trouble if he didn't go along with it.
However, I didn't simply stop reading. I skipped a few chapters ahead, to see if things change for the better. Yet in the latest chapter of the story I see them threatening him again, this time forcing him to go on a date with a boy despite the fact that he is not gay, or even a straight transgirl.
So with that, I stopped reading.
What is the attraction of this kind of situation/behavior to those who write it? Why would someone desire such cruel treatment. And, from a reader's standpoint, what is the attraction of reading a story with a main character who is so weak/insecure/cowardly that they won't stand up for themselves?
For me? I don't see it, and I can honestly say that despite my own personal wishes to be 'just one of the girls,' if someone were to try this kind of thing on me I would make sure that they were prosecuted to the full extent of the law I could, and if that wasn't possible, I'd at least make sure they didn't get the satisfaction of being allowed to bully me into their little games.
At the same time, I understand that some people fantasize about this kind of thing. So, completely honestly, why do you think this appeals to people? I've heard that it's simply the wish to not be held accountable for their own choices, but that reads false given how often in the stories the characters end up taking the blame anyhow. Is it the fetish element of it, the masochistic desire to be hurt? Is it a wish to not have to make your own choices, to let others decide while you just do?
Why?
Bribery I can understand. Payback, even, with the changed character accepting it as an element of punishment, okay -- less so, but okay. Or even when the character shows at least some desire to do what they are being 'forced' to do without any coercion. But simply making someone be someone they're not, when so much of our community has had issues with that happening in so many ways? It always hurts me, in my heart, when I read this kind of thing, so I truly wish to know what makes it enjoyable to others.
Melanie E.
Best explanation I've heard
Best explanation I've heard is that forced femme relieves the feeling of guilt that comes with doing something or wanting something that is so far off the norm of what is expected by society, parents, etc.
Rape fantasies and some bondage fantasies also relate to this relief from guilt in some theories. Just think about how much guilt society, etc. try to load anything that has any relation to sexuality.
This can also relate to the enjoyment some peopkle have reading and writing stories where the character has complete amnesia for their previous life.
Not to say that that is accurate but it makes as much sense as anything.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
I have a post op friend
who once told me she would love to have someone to boss her around, tell what to do, what to wear and so on. I couldn't understand it then I don't now, as I tend to get awkward when people try to push me around - so I'd be useless in the armed forces.
The attraction I suspect is an element of masochism/subservience/fetishism, plus at times a misplaced belief that women submit to dominant men, so being subservient is extreme femininity. So often we are told being beautiful involves sacrifice or pain, the ideal female form being so different to the shape of most natural women thus to achieve involves dieting or constrictive garments and the discomfort involved. Then we get into all sorts of areas of dysmorphophobia and other mental conditions.
Otherwise, dunno.
Angharad
Angharad
Well????
...I sort of agree with Erin's explanation; I've read that in several places. I think that the whole genre' actually appealed to me almost up to the point where I realized my 'outlook' was more than being drawn to women's clothes. As guilty as I occasionally feel for so many reasons, I seem to feel less and less troubled or shamed about my gender identity. And as I've become more convinced about my transgendered status, I've lost any interest in the genre'.
I guess it's like many here say - why would I mind being 'forced' to be what I am already? Do me a friggin' favor, why don't you? I hope that didn't come off being self-serving; it's just where I'm at in this point in my life. Hopefully that didn't sound too crazy either.
Dio vi benedica tutti
Con grande amore e di affetto
Andrea Lena
Love, Andrea Lena
I think everyone got it right.
I think pretty much everyone hit the nail on the head. Forced femme, I believe, is about relieving guilt. You want to be a girl but if you try to be a girl then you're weird. But if someone else is telling you to be a girl, or someone else is making you be a girl, then everything is okay; it's not your fault.
I think some people are too afraid of what society or their family might say if they come out as transgendered. But they still desperately wish to be a girl. So they fantasize certain scenarios. These scenarios include being forced in to femininity. While the abuse that inherintly goes along with it, arguably is bad, it fulfills the criteria. 1) They got to be a girl, and 2) It wasn't their fault.
Those two ideas are very important to a lot of transgenders, I find. It's why you'll see a lot of intersex fiction as well. They want to be a girl and now they have a valid reason for being a girl that they can point to. It's very hard to explain "mental gender" to anyone. Having a physical piece to point to is much easier.
FF a question of degrees?
And that begs the question. What exactly is Forced Fem.? I think that a degree of guilt banishment is present in most stories. Even our most beloved Cathy from "Bike" was just sitting on a dime until Stella came round and knocked her off it. I really don't know how probable that premise is but it has led to a great deal of fun. :)
On the other hand, there are those stories that challenge the boundaries of decency. I can think of one that I read many years ago on ASSTR that I would say was the strangest porn I had ever seen, where a young couple are kidnapped and turned into sex objects, the male being operated on chained and violated in countless ways. At the time, I thought that this was probably just the product of the demented mind of some bored college student, but in recent times with the surfacing of the Jaycee Dugard story, and a few of foreign origin that shocked me to the very core, I now see that some of these stories were in fact rooted in truth. It really caused me to reassess where I will allow my mind to wonder off to.
If anyone ever has a good answer to the why of the extreem FF stories, I would sure like to hear it.
I have been thankful these last several years, that mostly the extreme stories do not seem to flourish on BCTS.
Much peace
Gwendolyn
Some of my stories are Forced Fem.
At least, the first ones were. And the relief of guilt rings true for me, as I felt very guilty and wanted to be punished when I first was outed. And for years insisted that I'd been forced to become what I felt very guilty for doing, considering the loss of family, friends, church, job, and housing.
Now, I notice that I no longer feel that way, and have accepted that this new life I live is indeed better in many ways than the one I left. My present story, whose last enstallment is long over due, is also forced fem in that Frank had no control over getting blown up in Afghanistan, but he did readily adapt to it all. In one of my coming stories, this discussion had helped me make up my mind on FF in that I will now have the protagonist elect the fate, instead of being forced.
Maschochisim still runs deeply in me, though not like it once was. I still find the idea that a well administered spanking, done just right, can be extremely pleasurable and the feelings last for 2 or 3 weeks. It is all quite confusing. Now that I am running in more center of the road society, they are no longer available. :(
Gwendolyn
I sort of go along with Gwen
Before I was told about TG story sites, indeed, before I knew about Transgender, transgendered individuals,
or more about Transsexuals than Christine Jorgenson & Renee Richards, Forced Femme was really the only way I could imagine a male, whether wanting to be made to live as a female, could really happen.
Somewhere between the age of 7 and 11, ( I can pin it down that far, as I know where this was ), I had 'daydreams' that ran through my head after I went to bed, but before going to sleep, that looking back were forced femme, whether by magical means, aliens or mythical creatures such as silkies, or more 'conventional' means.
And still, before finding out about TG, etc, I found a bag of Nan Gilbert's 'Leslie in Petticoatland' someone had tossed toward the dumpster, but missed.
It seemed to back up the thought of forced femme as the only way it might happen.
And thus, some of the fiction I wrote over the years before learning about TG fiction,, tended to be forced femme.
BUT, after beginning to read TG fiction from online sites, my feelings began to change, to where now, I really do not care for it. But I can see where it may appeal to some.
I have told this to a few before this, but this is the first time I've come out this openly about it.
My feelings have changed enough that I do not wish to edit stories that go in this direction, though I have done some that barely trend in that direction.
But,I also wonder if someone who has been forcibly feminized against their will, can really be considered to be transgendered.
Holly
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.
Holly
Forced fem
I wrote a sort of response to the genre...but I have a simple habit when stories appear on the site. If they are marked 'explicit', or 'retcon', or 'forced fem', I take a quick look. Most times that is all I do. Not my cup of tea.
If the story has legs, draws me in, then I will read it, but so many of the forced fem stuff says nothing to me. All those attached appliances and stuff, na, not mine.
But what I do is stop reading, and look elsewhere. I don't leave a comment to say that I hate the story, I just exercise the prose equivalent of the TV off switch. Nobody gets hurt, no arguments, no discourtesy. I think that is the right way to deal with something you don't really fancy reading. I am sure many people do it to my stuff.
Now, in reply to the OP's question about what attraction there is in such stories, I am similarly confused. yes, I get the 'guilt' bit, but it is one thing being given an explanation and another feeling the attraction.
What's been said...
What's been said - about relieving the guilt. That may have something to do with it.
When I think back - to stories I read (once I discovered there were more than a few dozen TS folks in the world and there was trans fiction even!)... Many were forced fem - to varying degrees. Given my position, there were even times I thought that maybe having something like that done to me might make it easier to take for my family.
That said... My circumstances have changed, and (I believe as a result of this change) so have my reading interests. There's a LOT of stuff to read. I no longer "choose" to read a story with forced fem features. I've read a few, as friends convinced me that there was more to the story than the apparent force... And, I enjoyed most of those stories. A few, I still couldn't deal with. *shrugs* It's me.
But, based on my experience (a large scientific sample... Yeah, right. LOL), I'd say that it's not just the relief of guilt. It's also that it's "not your fault" so others would be more likely to accept.
Why do I say that? I look at people who are injured. Many get sympathy. Those who are injured by others - get much more. Those who do it to themselves, sometimes get ridiculed and laughed at. I think there's a lot of similarities there.
Anne
Wo Knows What Evil Lurks in the Hearts of Men
Like so many others have said, this is not my cup of tea. Nor do I understand the attraction to this particular brand of fiction and expect I never will. As far as trying to figure out why some enjoy it is like predicting exactly how much Playdo will be squished out between which fingers. The harder you squeeze, the more difficult it becomes to figure out.
Best advice I could render is those who enjoy it, write on. As for the rest of us, as the police say, 'Nothing to see here folks, move along.'
Nancy Cole
"You may be what you resolve to be."
T.J. Jackson
I started by reading "Forced Femme"
and the first place online I went to that's the only kind of stories they featured. I didn't know there was such a thing as someone who openly wanted to be recognized as a girl and worked towards that goal until I had found this place. Many of my stories have elements of forced femme in them, but I'd like to think that they have interesting characters or situations that go beyond that genre.
Dorothycolleen
Rasufelle
Please PM the name of that cheerleading story, it sounds yummy!
Five second before I read your blog I posted a forced-fem story. It's the best story I've ever written, so if it doesn't get 5,000 hits and forty comments and 150 kudos I'll have you to blame.
Now I know who's the Lucy around here.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
What's that I hear?
What's that I hear?
It sounds like door chimes.
Oh, It must be Jill pressing somebody's buttons!
Now start reloading that page! Drive up that hit counter!
Kris
{I leave a trail of Kudos as I browse the site. Be careful where you step!}
Kris
{I leave a trail of Kudos as I browse the site. Be careful where you step!}
Plot device
I haven't read FF for several years, the genre just doesn't appeal to me - although when I first started on this site I read the tales by Vickie Tern and StaceyInLove - usually cringing and wincing at numerous points but soldiering on to the end to see if there was any redemption for the protagonist (usually none whatsoever unless they grow to not only accept but like their predicament).
In many cases, it seems as though the antagonist is taking a pseudo-moral stand in patriarchal societies, men have been at the top and derided women and help them in low esteem - sometimes to the point of effective slavery. She acquires her victim - ironically usually an introvert who's a bit subservient anyway or a closet crossdresser (with no intentions whatsoever of living as female 24/7 let alone transitioning), sets up her trap, then uses the forced fem as a blackmailing factor to ensure the victim's compliance with the domestic and sexual slavery she's imposing on him. Quite often the victim is dressed as a grotesque parody of femininity to further degrade him and ensure his compliance. Therefore, she's in charge and he's a mere plaything, to use / abuse as she sees fit. However, sometimes the victim can be a misogynistic jerk, and that's used as an excuse to effect the permanent transformation. Need I remind everyone of OABM?
As to the motivations behind it, the role reversal is probably one factor (the author has a perception that some men have done wicked things to women in the past, therefore reverse the roles with the implicit assumption the victim is a scapegoat for all men), an extreme rendering of the author's fantasies, as well as the reasons others have noted above.
Personally, not my cup of tea. Give me sweet / sentimental any day!
There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't...
As the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only left-handers are in their right mind!
why feelings run high ...
First a comment: a better way to get this answered might have been to ask "why do *you* like forced femme?" rather than "why do you think other people like it?"
I don't think I can speak for those who like it--certainly I have theories, but they're essentially unprovable, untestable even--but I wanted to comment, for the FF fans reading this and gnashing their teeth, that there's a reason that some of us really, *really* dislike FF:
it denies our experience in life.
Well, sort of in reverse. If 'forcing' is possible, then 'forced homme' is what I and others have been subjected to--sometimes subtly, sometimes with stark violence. And yet I--and others--rejected the identity and role pushed upon us, and chose differently. Or had to choose differently. Or had to acknowledge that no amount of force could turn us into hommes.
But ... tastes differ, horses for courses, and so on and on.
Amy!
Should I remove some answers here?
Seems a lot of people here ignored Rasufelle's question to use the space to moan instead about how they, personally, don't like forced femme, don't understand why anyone would like it, and that the very existence of forced femme offends them because they feel it is evil. A few did answer the question or tried to honestly but the longer is has gone on the less friendly people are becoming.
How about this:
"I don't like TG fiction, I don't know why anyone would like it, and it offends me that it exists because I think it is just evil."
Put that in all of your smipes and poke it, ladies. I'm incredibly disappointed in many of the reactions to this post.
Just so no one misunderstands, I'm not a particular fan of forced femme and when I've tried to write, I find I usually cheat making the "victim" obviously enjoy it or some other way of bending the rules. I'm not found of vengeance stories either, and frequently those squick more than does plain forced femme. But the question was why do you think someone else likes it, not why do you not like it. Nor was it why do you think other people are crazy, perverse or evil for liking something you don't.
When you're poking people with dirty sticks, your hands end up filthy, too.
Hugs to all Erin,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Somebody answered my question
I've removed about 1/3 of the replies here and am closing this thread to other replies. If your comment was one of the ones removed, take a moment to think about what you said.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Could it be ......... SATAN?!!?
Sometime I fantasize that somebody is making me read forced fem. Kinky or what?
Well shit, I guess it really CAN happen here..,
.
Forced Forced Fem Reading
BEFORE you posted that, I was thinking of making a joke about a new genre of story, the "forced forced fem reading" genre, where someone's forced to read forced fem stories.
Great Minds Think Alike...
(and fools seldom differ)
Lisa