Over the past several months, I've been going over how Big Closet operates. I've had a couple meltdowns over it and now I've come to a conclusion.
I managed to get over my obsession with hit counts (see my blog if you're curious), and I can handle comments, or lack of them. It's the voting that bothers me, and I don't think I can get over it.
Voting is nice when you're a really good author and you're steadily improving. You can see your vote totals creep up and get a nice, warm feeling in your tummy. But I've also seen a negative effect.
Low or relatively low vote totals can be demoralizing. They've demoralized me and I've seen them demoralize others. Recently, I caught myself appraising a story based on how many votes I think it would get and when I realized it probably wouldn't do well, I found it hard to continue writing it. That really upset me!
If I continue posting all of my stories on Big Closet, I'm afraid I'll get stuck in a popularity contest. I'm afraid I'll start writing only for Big Closet readers and neglect some stories that I really want to write. That would be a shame I think.
I could turn votes and comments off. I did so for two stories after my first meltdown. But then I wouldn't know if readers liked my story. I want feedback to help me improve as a writer. I can't have it both ways.
I want to share my stories and I want readers to like them. I realize that there's no use posting them if no one else wants to read them. I just have to make sure I don't lean too much in favor of the reader and neglect my own needs.
On that note, I plan to occasionally post a story here, but only if I think it'll do well, and I'll leave voting turned on to see if I'm right. For those of my stories that I don't think will do well here on Big Closet, I'll post them elsewhere.
If you're one of my fans (yes, I have a few loyal fans), I'll post a blog here to announce each of my new stories and where it can be found. That will have to do.
Voting isn't necessarily a bad thing. Votes are a way a reader has to shape the story landscape to make it more entertaining. They influence authors to write the stories that readers want to read. There's already a fairly strong filter for transgender fiction but that's still a fairly broad genre. Readers can use their votes to sway authors to further pare down the types of stories, and that's fine. There are plenty of other websites, plenty of other fish in the sea.
- Terry
Comments
Write for yourself
And maybe a small number of people you trust to read it before it gets posted. But if you're not happy with it, why would anyone else bother to read it?
Writing for an audience is a tightrope but I think the most appreciative TG fans anywhere are here on BC. The only other place I post is Stardust which is probably 90% the same people.
But here's a key thing, Stardust doesn't have voting. So, it's like BC without the voting. Put a blog or one of the new storylinks here and let people come and read your story on Stardust. And storylinks and blogs don't have votes here on BC but storylinks get counted with your stories.
I think that pretty much solves the problem. ::smile::
-- Donna Lamb, Flack
-- Donna Lamb, ex-Flack
Some of my books and stories are sold through DopplerPress to help support BigCloset. -- Donna
I know what you mean about it being demoralizing...
I was really happy at the reaction to my first series, Pass On What You Have Learned, because I was afraid no one would like my writing. Then I started writing KittyHawk, and it gets more hits, comments, and votes. Every time I post a new POWYHL I feel a little down about the lesser reaction. I realize it's because it's a different type of story (And the name probably doesn't help any, either), but it still can be a bit depressing.
I've decided not to let it affect my writing, but I can understand your decision. I'll be sorry to see less from you here, but I'm glad you'll let us know where to find it!
Keep on writing what you want to write, lots of us like it!
Saless
"But it is also tradition that times *must* and always do change, my friend." - Eddie Murphy, Coming To America
"But it is also tradition that times *must* and always do change, my friend." - Eddie Murphy, Coming To America
Comparing numbers
All I can say is if you are only writing to get votes or comments, you are chasing the mist. I'd be interested in seeing a graph with the last three year's traffic displayed on it, along with an overlay that showed the number of stories posted. I know just three years ago I could check here once or twice a day and see every comment posted. Now when I visit the time span of the comments may only go back an hour or two. Voting has been all over the chart. This is not the first rating system Erin has put in place, and stories under the older system lost out on votes when this one was put into place.
And what some of the newer members don't realize is how much the traffic levels have changed on BC. The breakdown of FM gave the traffic here an incredible boost. When StorySite and Sapphire's quit posting updates, it changed again. Now that FM is back and SS is posting again, traffic has changed yet again. How do I compare my stories from several years ago with stories that are posted now? Authors are complaining about numbers that I would have been thrilled to get two years ago. How do I compare those numbers with today's numbers? I decided long ago I wouldn't. It just doesn't matter.
I posted a blog a year or so back stating my opposition to what was then the increasing number of story contests. Several people were not shy about attacking me for even daring to suggesting that fewer contests should be held. One writer used language that would likely get me in deep trouble if I used it today. I don't enter contests, even if I have a story. I have a romance story that I came up with before the Summer Romance contest was announced. I've had it out to a few Alpha readers, and now I need to go back and apply the suggestions. I may post it before the end of the contest, but I will not enter it.
Terry, I'm sure that you can find a hundred different ways to compare yourself to others, and many of them will have you coming up short. So What? You need to decide whose opinions are important to you, really important. Husband, wife, parents, children, boss, coworkers, whatever. Beating yourself up over the number of votes or comments you get for your stories on here, that is just silly.
Karen J.
"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin
If it just doesn't matter ...
why have votes, comments and hit counts? I think it does matter, and it does encourage some authors. The problem is that it's a double-edged sword.
- Terry
Why not?
Why not have them? They are a tool, to be used as you see fit. But don't place them on top as the only measure of the worth of your stories. Comments in particular can be very interesting. They give you an indication of what the readers are thinking. Ever seen some of the discussions I've gotten into with John from Wauwatossa? We have a great time kicking things around. But it is a scale of relative values. Don't use them as the sole measure of the worth of your stories.
Comments can be a valuable tool. Hits or votes - less so. They are kinda like those pneumatic traffic counters cities use. You know, the rubber hoses staked down on a street, attached to the boxes bolted and chained to a sign pole. A blind reliance on the numbers, with no consideration for events occuring at the time, can give city planners a false idea of traffic patterns. If the counters are set up on road A, and a traffic accident on road B diverts a bunch of traffic to road A, the numbers alone are going to give a false indication of the traffic levels.
Why do newspapers run horoscopes? Do most of the readers really use them to determine their day-to-day actions? I don't think so, I know I don't. But they are fun to read.
Use hit counts, votes, and comments as tools, not messages from God. Weigh what you see and read, and apply it to what you are doing. They can make you a better writer, and a better reader.
Karen J.
"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin
Reads, Votes, and Comments
Unfortunately, NONE of the three are really effective in determining how much people like or dislike a story. One of the biggest drawbacks to the voting score is that everybody gets one. That may sound like a good thing, since it means that nobody can artificially boost their votes, but it also means that for every guest reader who logs on and would vote, there is only one vote total. Comments and hits have no such limitation, which is both a blessing and a curse, but that should tell you that while voting is nice, it isn't everything.
I'll admit it -- I often forget to vote. Even if I comment, or read a story several times over, there are still times that I forget to vote for stories I like. In truth, though it was considered inferior, I much preferred the star system the site had for a brief time. It wouldn't matter if you only got a few votes, then, it was a more detailed representation of what each individual reader thought of your story.
And that's where the rub with voting comes in. It's too, well, I guess binary to be accurate or really useful. You either get a vote or you don't. A reader who loves your story has no more input in a vote than a reader who only kinda liked it.
I get obsessed with votes, comments, and hits too. I can't help it, this is the only site I post to, so I like seeing that my work is appreciated. But I don't think about those things while I'm writing. I write what I want to write, what I enjoy writing or I think will help me to grow as a writer. If people like it, great! If they don't, well, pardon my language but tough titty, I'm gonna write it anyways, and I'm going to post it. I've got a lot of stuff posted here, a good portion of it being drabbles. They all have pretty low vote totals overall -- come to think of it, I don't think I have a story out there with more than maybe forty-five votes total. But you know what? I'm just as proud of some of my fifteen-vote drabbles as I am some of my bigger stories, and just because they don't appeal to everyone doesn't mean they aren't worth having out there.
I'm not saying you shouldn't post some of your stories to other places -- that's actually a good idea, and something I should look into doing as well. But at the same time, at least consider posting them here as well. Even if they get less of a response, it's still response, and almost all responses here are of a positive or helpful manner. Sure, some other sites cater to particular genres or audiences more, but the reader response here blows away any other place I have seen, if not in quantity than in quality and usefulness.
Sorry to blather on so long, but this is an issue I usually get a little talkative about.
Melanie E.
One Alternative...
...though it sounds kind of silly. Post your stories with a line at the bottom: "DO NOT VOTE FOR THIS STORY! Comments are welcome, votes are not."
Then ignore whatever votes you get anyway, since you'll know that they really ARE meaningless.
Eric
No Guarantee
You can't guarantee that people will see the notice and not vote. Thanks for the idea though. It's appreciated.
Also remember that when I do post a story here, I still want to see how many votes it gets.
- Terry
You can't
Writing to some possible audience will get you nowhere. Any story is an idea that the writer hopes will connect with others but in the first instance it has to come from within. Mechanics play a part, spelling and grammar, the flow of plot. But it has to breath, to be real, regardless of the world within. If you can't feel it why should anyone else?
Some I think believe I can tell a story. Does that make me a writer? I dunno. I won't pretend that votes and comments mean nothing, they do. Votes say...yes okay not bad but I don't want to put a word or two down. Comments, even not great ones mean much more. It takes a bit of time and actual effort to do. Thought even. How can you not appreciate that or at least acknowledge it? There is a huge block that I know will not, regardless. If I saw comments from some on something of mine I'd fall off my chair. Just the way it is. That silent weight.
A lot is not everyones, which by no means makes it bad or wrong or anything, it just is. Taste, style, quality, all highly subjective once past the basics and small errors can be overlooked, everyone makes them.
Pretty pictures, fancy fonts and cutesy avatars mean nothing if the idea doesn't work. But they can help sell it. Up to a point.
Please anyone that wishes to write, do so, but don't do it to try and please someone else. It may or may not work but it will still be ultimately unsatisfying.
Kristina
I've come to the conclusion that...
Votes, while not meaningless, is not as important to me as the comments.
I've written a variety of stories now, and have noticed that some (one in particular) received almost twice the number of votes compared to the rest. It also received a LOT more reads. I lay this down to more readers imply more votes - a simple correlation (not linear - my sample is too small).
We all have different people that are willing to read what we write. There ARE some categories of story that are FAR more likely to get hits than others. If you decide to go for hits - you probably can "churn" out a piece that will suck them right up. Angela Rusch has pointed this out on a few occasions that I'm aware of.
So, I'm "mostly" okay with vote counts, but I've come to discount the actual number more than I did to begin with, except in one area. In my multi-part stories - if I see the "votes" increasing as I go on, I come to the conclusion that those who are following the story must find that it's getting better. (Hit count goes down. Also hit count going down with vote count staying the same or climbing indicates this to me as well.)
It's still not all THAT useful to me, as far as improving or knowing if the readers are "getting" it. Comments and to some extent PMs are the only way I trust to know if I'm getting to the readers and/or improving.
For what that was worth - I doubt 2 cents even.
Annette
Why votes?
Basically, votes are here on BC because more than one person asked me to provide something for readers to indicate their appreciation to an author when the reader had nothing to say that deserved being in a comment.
I tried a multi-level voting system, 1 to 5 stars, but cliques sprang up immediately and votes were either 1 or 5, with each clique voting 5s on all their own stories and 1s on all the stories of others. Less than 10% of votes were any value other than 1 or 5. I considered that situation incendiary and went to the current system.
If you don't want votes counted on some of your stories, Donna's suggestion is one I hadn't thought of. Post the story on StarDust and post a storylink here. Then fans of your stories can easily find it since it will be listed with your stories here and you can get comments in both places. Storylinks do not have vote buttons.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Star Voting Cliques?!
Really? Wow. I kind of liked the idea of star voting but not after hearing about the star cliques. That's horrible! I like to think better of people but I'm disappointed far too often. *sigh*
- Terry
Not organized or deliberate
It just happened. People who liked crossdressing stories voted 5 on those and 1 on others. People who liked transitioning stories voted for their favorites and against everything else. People who liked transformation stories did the same. There were other patterns that could be seen, too. For and against erotic, or magical, or sentimental, whatever.
Having a rating system turned into being able to vote AGAINST stories that were disliked. The current system allows voting FOR but the only way to vote against is to not vote. Some authors threatened to quit writing. They might have 8x5 for votes but 12x1 against votes gave them an average of 2.6. Only the most inoffensive stories could expect to get ratings above 3 or 4. Even really excellent stories were not getting the high ratings one would hope for.
While the current system has problems, it's simple and it works and serves some useful function. A vote for a story is a recommendation to others that the story is worth reading and an encouragement to the author that someone cared enough to click the button.
I really don't see a way to improve this system or avoid the pitfalls and pratfalls of any sort of rating system. FM does not even show hit counts in part due to the jealousy and rivalries those numbers caused and, officially, because of the load on the server they represented. At StorySite, only authors can see hit totals and only for their own stories.
I think hits, votes and comments all matter, and they matter in varying degrees to different authors. But they probably don't matter that much in the big scheme of things. Certainly, some of the best stories on BC have low hit, vote and comment totals. Sometimes it's just timing.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Sword...
True, but so is everything. All these things measure popularity, to be sure, but not necessarily "best," any more than the popularity of Cosmopolitan makes it the best women's magazine, and they don't measure universal popularity either, but just that bestowed by the particular demographic that reads at least some of the stories on this site.
Maybe the stories you want to write aren't the stories the majority of the people here want to read.
That doesn't mean that they don't have an audience, even here, just that there aren't as many as there are who fancy other things. It's an obvious truism that certain sites attract different readers but it's also the case that for writers to take hit counts and votes seriously is to start changing their stories to match the most popular formats, writing, in some sense, to "focus group" specifications.
But this sort of "marketing" strategy almost guarantees bland stories that vaguely appeal to a large number of people, but are fuzzy enough at the edges that considerable overlap occurs.
And the thing is, hit counts measure *mostly* traffic through the host site, so one could put a story on FM or Story Site and receive more "hits" but not necessarily more readers, since many back out of a story immediately if it doesn't seem quite their cup of tea, or even later when they stumble across something they don't like. So some sites might generate thousands of hits, but very few actual reads.
Big Closet, and Stardust especially, tend not to attract the people who generate the most hits of all, those who are looking for one-handed stories, as these have their very own own venues, ASSTR, Literotica, and many others scattered around the Web.
So the real question for me would be not whether one pleases the *most* people, but whether the stories one wants to tell please yourself, and whether the audience one might like to please includes the sorts of people one would be proud to call admirers.
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Nifty
Has become a archive essentially for one handed stories.
Daniel, author of maid, whore, bimbo, and sissy free TG fiction since 2000
What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.- Oscar Levant
Self focused
I've come to have a pretty low opinion of readers. I mean that I understand why people don't always comment. A case in point is Angharad's "Bike". I doodled around for a long time before I got interested in it, but when I finally took the hook, I simply can not put it down. In less than a week I am at chapter 145, and loving it. Many of the chapters simply seem so complete, and written in such a manner that I simply don't have anything to say afterward. So, comments don't matter so much, I think.
Voting is another matter to me. If it was worth reading, it was worth a vote, DAMMIT! How can some of you be such PRIGS?!!!!!
Now, as far as MY stories are concerned, I well know that I don't write the ones that fit the formula, and I do not intend to write what I do not feel. You see, I write what I like and feel, and it is NOT for the benefit of the reader.
So, those of you who can not be bothered to vote, well, you can just PISS OFF!
Don't hold back
Don't hold back, Gwen. Tell us how you really feel. ;-)
I went outside once. The graphics weren' that great.
I can't understand it!
I normally would not even be cross with a Dormouse. I must be getting ready to be on.
Khadija
In Summary
I've had lots of good comments and some good private messages but I still haven't changed my mind.
Here's a summary of my points:
1) Telling me not to worry about votes is like telling a mother not to worry about her child. It's not going to happen. Authors give birth to stories (OMG! I'm a mother!) and votes are like report cards for those stories. "Look, Mommy! I got an A!"
2) I agree that votes can be a good thing. They can encourage writers under certain circumstances.
3) Votes can also be a bad thing. They can be demoralizing no matter how much one tries to brush them off (see point 1).
4) Fussing about votes has begun to affect my writing. It's making me question the value of writing some of my stories. When I don't think they'll be well-received, I find it increasingly difficult to write them. That's a very bad thing.
5) Even my less popular stories have the potential to touch lives and help pull distressed readers from the pit of despair. But those stories don't have to be posted on Big Closet. I can post my stories somewhere else and post a story link on Big Closet.
I hope that puts everyone at ease about this issue. I'm sorry if I've rattled anyone's cage.
- Terry
Gwen will have a fit and thanks, Karen
I think I have voted a couple times tops. I don't always vote in the contests either.
Problem is I don't know how to be fair. I suppose vote for what you like and ignore the rest.
I do try to leave comments as much as time permits. I sometimes don't but I often manage. To me a comment is more useful as it can express WHY I liked or disliked something. Comments have helped my occasional postings here , I hope mine help others.
As to Karen and my interactions, Karen and others such as Grover, Itinerant, and so on have bantered with me but ... is it because I stir the pot, ask/add interesting questions/observations or is it to save civilization as we know it by mollifying the Looney?
John the Looney in Wauwatosa
John in Wauwatosa