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New signs went up in the park where I live. They say "Drive Slowly" which made me laugh. They mean "Drive Slow" because the opposite of what they mean is to "drive fast" not "drive quickly". It's the rare case in English of a pronomial adjective for a verb other than to be.
An adverb modifies the action of the subject, the driver. A pronomial adjective modifies the unstated object, the car. We want the car to be slow, not the driver. :) The driver should be quick enough to react to an emergency but the car should not be fast. Driving slowly is a mime act, driving slow is a precaution. :)
Everyone understands what the sign means but someone used two extra letters in an attempt at hypercorrectness while making a fundamental error.
I get a kick out of such stuff because in junior high, our English instructor gave us extra credit for spotting such errors in signs, newspapers, books and such. Early training to be an editor, I guess. :)
If they had said "Go Slowly" or "Go Slow" -- either would have been correct; cars can go but they can't drive themselves. :)
Since it was painted on the ground to be read bottom up, it actually looks like it says, "Slowly Drive" which is even funnier. :)
Hugs,
Erin
Not necessarily true.
The sign could be regarded as an abbreviation for 'Drive the car slowly' which I think would be correct a the 'the car' is the subject of the verb. Wouldn't it? The last English Language lesson I took was in 1956 when I was 16 (I had to drop Eng Lit 2 years earlier as I chose the Science route rather than the Arts one) so I'm not going to be too pedantic here.
Geoff
But...
You don't want the car driven slowly, taking the actions of driving at a slow pace, you want the car driven at a slow speed. My degree is in math, but I have a minor in English so I can't get too pedantic here, either. LOL.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Chinglish
Possibly the same people that write/translate the manuals that come with TV's, VCR's, and the like had something to do with this. Why not just post a speed limit sign and be done with it?
One of my favorites is the instructions on a can of aerosol cheese, which say in part: "Directions: For best results, remove cap . . ." (Underline added) I've gotta wonder who decided the bit about removing the cap was needed, and why.
Fractured instruction. Sometimes I worry when I don't understand them, and sometimes I worry when I do.
KJT
"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather
"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin
I once saw some instructions that read ...
For use only indoors or in a well ventilated area.
This was on a spray can of ant spray. Can't use it outdoors or in a well ventilated indoor area, huh?
One of the most difficult things to give away is kindness.
It usually comes back to you.
Holly
One of the most difficult things to give away is kindness.
It usually comes back to you.
Holly
And, here I was thinking...
They wanted the driver to move slowly as he or she manuvered the car. No rapid movements... (Swerving to avoid someone on a bike they didn't notice, despite bright reflective gear and such; or slamming on brakes or...)
In my old neighborhood
...the school kids started a petition to have the "Slow Children Playing" signs removed. They wanted to recall the whole city counsel too.
In Texas one is admonished to "Drive Friendly"; actually, I was exiled for driving friendlily (among other things). Of course, it is a whole other country.
Actually.....
It's more like another planet.
The fact that it's an imperative...
obscures the underlying structure, and we're not terribly consistent in any case, since imperative sentences can be analysed in many ways, and imputed objects may not actually exist in people's minds.
They walked slowly home.
You walk slowly home.
(You) Walk slowly!
They walked the dog slowly home.
You walk the dog slowly home.
(You) Walk (the dog) slowly! (home)
*You walk the dog slow home.* Unlikely, I think.
You drive the sheep slowly home.
You drive the horse slowly home.
You drive the car slowly home.
He finished his work quickly.
He drove the car quickly.
The fact is that either version *can* be correct, depending on how you think about it, and the exact shade of meaning you mean to impute, but some will be "better" than others.
You walk the dog slow. (concentrating on the interaction)
You walk the dog slowly. (concentrating on the action)
Language isn't entirely about rules, it's also about art.
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Gosh
"He drove the car quickly."
Well, he probably shouldn't, with all those animals around!
As you say
"Drive Slowly" isn't completely incorrect (though the verb in driving sheep and driving cars is actually describing completely different actions). It's just that "Drive Slow" is grammatically correct and idiomatically more common and someone felt it necessary to use an adverb were one was not needed and introduced some humorous ambiguity. :)
The other point is that in those examples above where "slowly" sounds correct there is an indirect object also, so the driving is not just an action but a process with a goal. "I drove slowly home," sounds correct. "I usually drive slow," sounds correct but swapping adjective and adverb in those two sentences sounds awkward, at least to me, though neither one would be completely incorrect.
English usage is full of funny little non-rules like these, idioms and turns of phrase. And when someone misuses them it either clumks, or -- if done just right -- comes across as part of a characterization.
And that's another reason to talk about it here.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
I Beg to differ
I Beg to differ with you on this, Erin. In the UK (or should I say ENGLAND—where the language originated) such signs always say Drive Slowly which is correct gramatical ENGlish. Drive SLOW immediately shouts “AMERICANish†to my ears and would have been classified by my English teachers as "slovenly and lazy speech". To some people, “Drive Slow†could be confusing, as "drive" is a verb, and so is "slow"; but while "slow" is also an adjective and an adverb, "slowly" is only an adverb so using it to qualify "drive" leaves no possibility of ambiguity.
I reaalise that the version of "OUR" language that you speak in the US is different, having developed differently from the language of the Pilgrim Fathers that was spoken on both sides of the pond in the early 17th century.
Gabi
(being VERY pedantic!)
Gabi.
It's quite common in English...
for a single word to be able to function quite well as either an adjective or an adverb. "Slow" is one of those, although "slowly" narrows it down, and many words have no "adverbial" form, as you correctly pointed out with "fast," but can none-the-less be used in either capacity. Trying to formulate elaborate rules to guide these choices only obscures the underlying fact, that you can't tell from looking at either "fast" or "slow" what function it serves in the complete sentence.
In "Drive Slow," "slow" is being used adverbially, so either variation of the word can be used at will, although I don't doubt that in some areas, and in some circles, one variation may be prevalent and the other seen either as a hypercorrection or slovenly, depending upon which circles one runs in.
There may be some degree of onomatopoeia involved as well, since "Drive fast!" sounds "quicker," where "Drive slowly..." drawls out the adverb a bit, lending a certain "leisure" to the phrase.
>> driving sheep and driving cars
Actually, they're the same, through the practice of hitching horses to carriages, in the handling of which "drive on" is what one says to a horse one wants to move forward, unless one is a semi-literate frontiersman, in which case "giddup" may be appropriate.
>>>> 2. to cause and guide the movement of (a vehicle, an animal, etc.): to drive a car; to drive a mule. (from the Random House Dictionary)
This only *sounds* odd to many of us because we're out of the habit of driving animals, so instantly imagine a steering wheel when we hear the word "drive." But we humans have been driving animals for a *lot* longer than we've had motor vehicles to play with. At their inception, some thought marine navigation the better metaphor, which is where "steering wheel" came from.
This reminds me of the heated controversy, many years ago, between the choice between "as" and "like," where "like" was (famously) used correlatively in an advertising campaign, although this usage had been "current" in some areas for many, many years.
Language is a river, one in which we can never step twice. What we say tomorrow may have a fairly limited relationship to what we said yesterday.
Cheers,
Puddin'
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English usage is sometimes more than mere taste, judgement, and education -- Sometimes it's sheer luck, like getting across the street.
--- E. B. White
There is a satisfactory boniness about grammar which the flesh of sheer vocabulary requires before it can become a vertebrate and walk the earth.
--- Anthony Burgess
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Hmmmm
I wish I knew enough about this stuff to comment intelligently. But the last time I remember studying grammar was in junior high school, and when we were supposed to be diagramming sentences, I spent all my time staring out the window wondering what I would look like in Leree's dress. Honestly, she wore the cutest stuff.
To "Slowly Drive" ...
...where no one has driven before ...
Car Trek!
You should see the typo on one of our forms at the bank. It's for ordering/selling back cash from/to the vault. Can any one explain to me what currency a *tow* is? Hundreds, fifties, twenties, tens, fives, ones/singles, even two dollar bills I understand but a *tow*?
Can't be wrong, HQ did it and they're infulible
John in Wauwatosa
John in Wauwatosa
I'm impressed!
I'm impressed by this debate.
As someone who takes a pride in writing correct English (and who went to a Grammar School), I normally have no problem with the theory; however, I have to say that I never got to do pronomial adjectives at school so I cannot speak from theory.
However, my gut feeling is that 'Drive Slow' sounds wrong - slovenly even - whereas 'Drive Slowly' does not.
Perhaps there is a real difference in the theory between English English and American English, here, or maybe it's simply common usage which makes one appear more correct than the other, depending upon which side of the Atlantic you reside.
Driving a Slowcoach
I agree with Charlotte. Drive slowly sounds so much better. Surely it is an imperative directed at the driver. And it doesn't imply that he has to react slowly? Maybe it is indeed an American v English thing as is suggested. 'Go slow' has quite a different connotation from 'go slowly' having acquired an aura of perverse wilfulness associated with some aspects of political Trade Unionism. Maybe the mind associates 'go' with 'drive' in this context?
But of course I am grasping at straws or building castles in the air. I don't really know.
I confess I largely go by sound rather than technicalities though. It occurs to me that the description of someone as being a 'non-driving friend' sounds perfectly reasonable. Whereas to say one has a 'driving friend' sounds wrong. The difference being surely solely that one is worth remarking and the other not. It is not that non drivers are rarities, I know several, but that one expects adults to be able to drive. It is all very subjective. In the simple form of the nouns, 'driver' and 'non-driver', the assumption is that the situation is a temporary one, again because that is the more likely. And so no jarring note is struck.
I will stop here as I seem to be wandering into a morass of contradictions and haven't really a clue what I am talking about. I can feel confusion creeping over me like a traditional pea-souper.
Perhaps after all it is just what one is accustomed to. I cannot recall ever having heard someone say 'Drive slow'. So to me it sounds as odd as if they had said 'drive careful'.
I think I will go to bed. I feel a headache coming on.
Hugs,
The context is the thing, Erin
On a traffic sign, things are often shortened. The intent is to get the meaning across with as few words and letters as possible.
There are standard sizes and shapes, and standard font sizes desired, so that a driver does not have to read a book to find out what they are supposed to do.
In an area such as you described, while speed may be low, the whole intent of the sign is to protect children. So the slower speed still should not allow more time to read a longer wording, as that time is more likely to be needed to watch for the kid chasing a ball into the roadway,etc.
Yes, technically it might be grammatically incorrect, but one should not take time to think about the grammar on signs while driving, it it reduces alertness. For the 99+% of the population that does not deal with words and grammar most of the time, either wording will work.
And if a symbol gets the intent across it is even better than text. A yellow diamond shaped sign with a wiggly arrow works better than 'Watch out, there are a lot of curves coming up ahead'
One of the most difficult things to give away is kindness.
It usually comes back to you.
Holly
One of the most difficult things to give away is kindness.
It usually comes back to you.
Holly
Paint on the pavement
The sign is newly painted on the asphalt of the driveway inside the mobile home park where I live. Seniors only, too. :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Re: paint on pavement
If the sign is inside the seniors' mobile home park isn't the sign redundant anyway? Or, does that question make me guilty of profiling?
I'm confused now.
Hugs
Carla
...but you shouldn't be driving ...
... on the pavement. In fact driving or cycling on the pavement is illegal in the UK. Pavements are where we walk. Roads are where we drive :)
Oh the joys of the common language.
Geoff
Pavement vs sidewalk, kerb vs. curb
Pavement in America usually means a paved road but can also mean a driveway or sidewalk. In America, roads were usually paved before sidewalks, by decades sometimes. The town where I live has paved sidewalks only in the business district and civic center.
In London, I can see sidewalks being paved before roads in some areas, so that kind of makes sense.
And the different words for parts of a car came about because the two car cultures developed pretty independently. There are even regional differences in the US, like turtle for the trunk (boot) in some parts of the South and boot actually used for a small cargo area behind the seat in a pick-up truck. I think car parts got named after coach parts in the US and perhaps after carriage parts in the UK or at least, the mix of sources was different.
I thought of another justification for the "Drive Slowly" sign: since "Drive Slow" is more idiomatic in the US, perhaps "Drive Slowly" is used because people will actually think about it.
Let me ask something: in the UK are there signs on city streets that say "Kerb Your Dog" or do they say "Curb Your Dog"? :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Neither
Although in that sense 'curb' would be the word but perhaps 'kerb' might indicate you should drag your mutt to the gutter before it deposits its load :). Signs usually say something like 'Dogs must be on a lead' or 'No Dog fouling' :) (Dog walkers are expected to pick up the mess, and usually do) The dogs on a lead signs are very common on country paths because they're inclined to chase sheep or cattle.
I'd better not raise the matter of 'less(er) or few(er), had I? LOL
Geoff
Kerb Your Enthusiasm
"Curb Your Dog" signs in the US generally have been replaced by more explicit directions to "Clean Up After Your Pet" and a civic supplied dispenser of little bags. I never was sure exactly what was meant by the originals, whether the admonition was to restrain the animal or as you suggest, urge them to poop in the gutter. :)
Not a good idea, that last, and highly illegal in California where nearly all gutters lead to storm drains that empty into the ocean, usually near beaches. You're not allowed to wash your car in the street, either. Storm drains are supposed to be reserved for natural runoff as much as possible.
Sanitary drains (sewers) lead to water treatment plants that are supposed to remove solids and kill pathogens before dumping effluent into the ocean at the ends of mile-long offshore pipes. New regulations are being designed to require removal of other biological contaminants like prescription medicines.
I see more and more people walking cats on leashes, nowadays. Every cat I've ever owned would have played dead or tried to climb the leash! :) Oh, leads are what you walk horses on the ends of here, except that professional dog trainers use leads, too.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
A yellow diamond shaped sign with a wiggly arrow works better...
Actually, there are studies that show that *words* focus the attention better, as long as the word is written in a language one understands. Pictographs are a compromise between "legibility" and "universality," and many are quite opaque until their meaning is explained and memorised.
In some cases, generic symbols are used because describing the exact nature of a potential hazard would take too many words.
One notes, for example, that "STOP" signs still have their words on them, although in Japan they're upside-down red triangles.
Cheers,
Puddin'
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Different registers, different rules.
Exactly.
The technical term is "register". There are different rules for formal, informal, headlines and signs. What's grammatical in formal English (which is mostly what we're taught) isn't always in "sign English" and vice versa.
I was going to write a lot more, but you got it.
Xaltatun of Acheron
The English...
...tend to make, in some regions, in some classes, more effort to speak and write "correctly" than they do in some regions of the the USA, but creeping Americanisms appear on the pages of every major newspaper in the UK, decried by angry writers of letters to the editor and subject to the odd guideline passed down from on high, chastising sloppy writers and urging them never, ever, to do it again.
In the meantime, two thirds of young Britons say "skedule" rather than the "preferred" "shedule", whilst those over 60 are still grimly holding onto PrinCESS rather than PRINcess.
Thank Heavens that even the young still prefer that "niche" be pronounced as "neesh" rather than "nitch", preserving at least a vestige of decorum and respect for the past.
There'll always be an England, but life goes on...
Cheers,
Puddin'
--------------------------------------------
Noah Webster once said that. in America "...the body of the language is the same as in England, and it is desirable to perpetuate that sameness, yet some differences must exist...," since "...language is the expression of ideas, and if the people of one country cannot preserve an identity of ideas" "with the people of another country, they are not likely to retain an absolute identity of language."
The same thing happens in *every* major enclave of English, whether it be Australia, Canada, India, Scotland, Ireland, or wherever. not just in the USA, and even in Britain, where "errors" perpetuate themselves as "au courant" with as much facility as they do anywhere else in the world.
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
The American Niche
Actually, it's pronounced neesh here, too. Except by ignorant people trying to sound British (who are notorious for mispronouncing French :) ), some regionalists and the odd biologist or two who pronounce it "nitch". Which is reasonably legit since that's the way it may have been pronounced in Anglo-Norman rather than Parisian French, the ch digraph being more often pronounced instead of eroded into sh in regional French.
That's something about Americanisms, they often turn out to be antique British regionalisms that got wider currency on this side of the Atlantic then swam back home to roost. :) Like "skedule" which I think (may be wrong here) was the West Country pronunciation as opposed to the Southeastern "shedule". Even "okay" turns out to have a plausible origin in England in a jocular imitation of the Scots, "Och, aye." :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Not used often
But whenever I've heard 'niche' used around here (Texas/Oklahoma) it has been pronounced to rhyme with 'itch'. I don't recall ever hearing it pronounced the other way. Like I say, it's not used very often.
KJT
"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather
"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin
Karen, I've heard it both ways but nitch/nich is the moe common
neech is too close to Neiche, the German Philosopher Hitler loved. But then my spelling sucks.
John in Wauwatosa
John in Wauwatosa
Nitch
>> I don't recall ever hearing it pronounced the other way...
I reckon your neighbours have all found their predestined niche, eh?
Puddin'
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Uncommon origins
The language spoken on either side of the Atlantic really comes from different places, even three hundred years ago. The dominate American dialect is close to that spoken on the southwestern and western coast of Britain at that time, except for that of some parts of the southern states, which is closer to what was spoken in the home counties. The usual British accent is closer to that of the mid-lands.
The American speech seems to have changed less than that of the British over times. There are lots of hypotheses for this. Perhaps the number of immigrants, who depended on teachers, fixed the language to some extent.
The reason for the midlands becoming dominant is often blamed on the location of most public schools, and the nineteenth century growth of the middle class in England. BBC has long preferred that accent for the readers, and even actors that weren't doing character parts. In the twentieth century some changes have been made deliberately less 'American' (the -ize rejection, which was once preferred for some words, and which even the OED long fought)
At any rate, if Dr. Johnson woke up today, he would be upset with all of us, no doubt.
Joy, Jan
PS: I say 'nich', with a short 'i' (to the extent I have over come my upbringing and can differentiate a short 'i' from a short 'e'.). My niece, who speaks such beautiful French that even French persons won't believe she is American, uses the long 'e', but that's not as bad as what she does to 'crapes'
Our "midlands"...
...are the mostly the states of West Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, Missouri, and Arkansas and neighboring areas where the modern speech is based mainly on 17th and 18th century versions of Ulster, Scots and north end of England dialects. Those areas got into the emigration trend late and had to take the less desirable inland areas during colonial times. Some German protestants "snuck" in during the same era. There's even a part of the southern Appalachians where the original colonists were from Turkey!
The Australian accent seems to be a mix of East End of London, Liverpool and Ireland. The distinct East End accent had very little input into American accents since it arose in London AFTER the colonial period here. The settlers Down Under were later and had much more urban origins than the colonists to the American shores. To me, New Zealand accents sound like they got a bit more Yorkshire and Scotland mixed in and South Africa is more Londonish (or maybe Midlandsish).
This kind of stuff fascinates me and the scholarly arguments often seem no more enlightened, and just as entertaining, as the rawest of folk etymology. :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
BBC English ...
... has changed dramatically in my life time. In the 40s and 50s it was very much more like the way the Royal family (well the Queen and her children - the grandkids are a bit less extreme) tortures their vowels. As an example 'off' was pronounced 'orf'. It's very apparent when the Beeb broadcasts old recordings.
Regional accents were rarely used and there was a furore when Wilfred Pickles with a northern accent first read the news. Happily the only requirement now is that the speech should be clear and there's a continuity announcer now with a Caribbean accent. However so-called educated Scottish or Welsh accents were always acceptable, perhaps because Lord Reith, the first Director General, was a Scot :)
Not sure what Jan means by a Midlands accent, assuming she's referring to the English Midlands, that is because there isn't one. There are several. Speech in the West Midlands (Birmingham/Coventry) is quite different from that spoken in the East Midlands (Leicester/Nottingham/Derby) and there are quite distinct variations within those areas too. Public school pupils certainly don't speak with a Midlands accent despite the fact that schools like Rugby and Repton are in the area. They would all acquire an upper class (RP - received pronunciation) accent even if they came from a more humble background.
In England, particularly, accent is an indicator of class and social position though it's gradually getting less. Where I was brought up miners spoke almost a different language from the local gentry who employed them despite both groups being native to the area.
Geoff
by 'Public' schools ...
I suspect you mean private schools which are not open to the public unless they can pay to get it?
Here, a public school is open to anyone, and payed for from tax money, ( well mostly )
Right now, the economy and expected taxes are so bad that many schools are looking at cutting 'frill' programs, such as art, music, many after hours programs such as drama and clubs, sports, home economics and shop, to concentrate their money on 'the basics'.
That is also because of the 'No Child Left Behind' federal mandated testing that forces them to teach to the test, instead of teaching how to think.
One of the most difficult things to give away is kindness.
It usually comes back to you.
Holly
One of the most difficult things to give away is kindness.
It usually comes back to you.
Holly
That's right.
Confusing isn't it?
In the UK so-called Public schools are 'public' as opposed to having a private tutor and were all intended to serve the sons of gentlemen. They include Eton, Harrow, Rugby, Repton etc and also schools for the daughters of gentlemen like Roedean. What any sensible society would call public schools are known as State Schools here. Like a lot of things here it's all in the history.
Geoff
I've often wondered...
>> but that's not as bad as what she does to 'crapes'
...why anyone would name those cute little flat pancakes with such a alarming cognomen, although the circumflex in crêpe usually indicates an ancient "s" sound, just as the same indicator in crêtin reveals that the word was, at one time, synonymous with Christian. Probably cognate (the crêpes) that is) with "crisps," although one shudders to think of Crisps Suzette.
Cheers,
Puddin'
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style