i have also been posting my story on fm and i have recieved this review
{Reviewed by Chauncey on 08/12/2008
Absolutely cringe-worthy. You're exhibiting the crudest, most base, unsophisticated instincts as a would-be writer. It's a misguided foray into childish, moralistic wish-fulfillment fantasy, made all the more stunningly embarrassing by the sheer commitment of time and energy to the whole endeavor.
Alicia's Summer Vacation offended you? You didn't like the ending? Don't read it. It didn't actually happen. You're not changing lives by adding a new outcome.
You want to write a comeuppance/revenge-fantasy story? Write your own goddamned story. Don't shit all over someone else's work.
Why not write epilogues for other works while you're at it? Didn't like the outcome of Gone With the Wind? The Story of O? The Great Gatsby? Anna Karenina? Make a public spectacle of yourself by basically changing the endings of all those by adding your own muddled new chapters.}
It made me wonder if what i am doing with Alicia's New Life is ethical or if it could be considered stealing or sh*ting on someone else's work. I dont think so, writing additions to others work is nothing that hasent been done before. THere are a great number of Star Wars novels published. some of them havent been approved by Lucas either.
I remember Heir to the Empire which I dearly loved. When episode 1 and 2 came out, I realized they completely contradicted the novels version of the early rise of the empire and the clones. So I think that harsh review is unwarranted and what im doing is ethical. This is my own story. Nobori, detective Mark is mine. Haruki is my character. This story is from my imagination. i'm not stealing it.
opinion
comments on FM tend to be over the top in praise or dislike, just on that alone it's probably a good thing to stir people to comment at all rather than to become anxious about what they write. I'm not an author but I do create in other areas that cause comments by the users on how well i've accomplished a task.
An now that i've said that, each comment deserves one of it's own...
===1
Absolutely cringe-worthy. You're exhibiting the crudest, most base, unsophisticated instincts as a would-be writer. It's a misguided foray into childish, moralistic wish-fulfillment fantasy, made all the more stunningly embarrassing by the sheer commitment of time and energy to the whole endeavor.
--
IMHO .. could apply the above to any story the reader doesn't like, very generic tho long winded.
===
===2
Alicia's Summer Vacation offended you? You didn't like the ending? Don't read it. It didn't actually happen. You're not changing lives by adding a new outcome.
---
IMHO .. just silly, can't know the end without reading, and who knows if you liked the end or not... any story can be different, better is just an opinion. Before yours there have been other re-writes of Alicia, with violent endings. Not sure how yours will end yet.
===
===3
You want to write a comeuppance/revenge-fantasy story? Write your own goddamned story. Don't shit all over someone else's work.
---
IMHO .. there are thousands of stories with similar plots, it's sort of central to the theme of "poor boy" but you could have used any name and someone, somewhere will have written a similar story before you. Besides, in this case the work you use as a basis IS a revenge story.
===
===4
Why not write epilogues for other works while you're at it? Didn't like the outcome of Gone With the Wind? The Story of O? The Great Gatsby? Anna Karenina? Make a public spectacle of yourself by basically changing the endings of all those by adding your own muddled new chapters.}
--
IMHO .. I'm pretty sure that someone, somewhere has done just that. In some cases very successfully.
===
Lastly, You did point out the story you based your work on as a reference for readers as a way to let them decide for themselves what they like. That is a good thing and it also exposes the other work to people that may not have read it if you didn't, never a bad thing IMHO...
Best wishes in bringing your view of stories to the page.
Suna Amlin
Well heres my opinion
While the author can say that this isn't an official addition to the story ,in my opinion, its awfully childish to say something like s/he did .
A story is written to spark something in a person imagination and take them to a unknown place and guide them through a specific scenario as such its perfectly normal for the reader to create its own addition/ change the story to there own like. Now I think that sharing your own take on the story is ok , I also think that this specific author complains because the addition doesn't fit his/her liking .
Basically it seems to me that the original author can't deal with the criticism you made on the moral of the characters in her story (or her own) and thus attack you with an easy defense .
To sum up heres what my old literature teacher told one of my class mate when he asked her " What if the author hadn't meant to say that ?" :
"Once a story is published its released to massive and becomes there own property . While the author is the creator he can't tell people what to do with it or how to read into it, since he doesn't own it or at least he can't own it in the mind of the person who read it at home"
Basically I see literature as taking experiences, thoughts and desires ( and probably some other things) of yourself putting it in a nice package and release for other to trample on with their legs , to crumble with their hands to cut , laugh and ignore them. It might hurt when they do but then you can't control on how they intake the experience you told them .Yes writing is a painful business but thats what it is to be an author . If you want to criticize socity or tell them what you think the world should be like prefer to be criticized your self .
P.s.
Sorry on how unorganized this replay is . Its just that at 00:15 After a long day at work and with a mild headache my writing skills do suffer.
Banned in BigCloset
Such a review would be deleted here on BC. Why? Because it isn't a review or even a comment on the story; it's a personal attack on the writer. Our masthead says "A friendly place ..." so you must be friendly or at least courteous to post here.
FM will remove reviews at author request. I'm a little more proactive. :) I will remove any comment attached to a story at the author's request, I've even removed GOOD reviews that authors objected to for one reason or another. The story, and it's presentation belongs to the author, excepting only formatting and accomadation requirements by me. Those don't include allowing such over-the-top abuse as that so-called review.
The culture at FM seems to encourage such reviews. They are constantly defended in the forum there if someone objects and authors are told to grow thicker skins. Bullshit. The reviewers don't have thick skins since they react like crybabies if someome criticizes them. Free speech, they'll yelp, like they even had a clue to what that meant. :)
Authors don't have to grow thick skins, they have to write. As much as I can, I try to make writing and posting here painless for the authors because this place is about the stories, not the reviews.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
thank you erin
It doesnt hurt me erin. Its more reviews for my story :) I am well aware not everyone is going to like what im doing and the humiliation fetish crowd might be angry at me lol. THe review jus made me wonder if i was doing something that would be considered, unethical. He felt strong enough to post another review on my story. I did my job lol.
If i'm understand your question ....
maybe I misread your original post, but from what I understand your story is a derivative work from another story. This as I understand the legal groundwork kind of puts your work into copyright violation. Although cases of fair use can be made it seems to be a very gray area legally.
Unless the work was original released under some kind of licensing or with permission to allow for fan fiction otherwise I think you really might be in an ethically bind here. Legal you might be able to make a technique argument that you are under fair use, but it would be an argument which may or maynot hold up in court.
In this case I really , really think you need to ask for direct permission from the original author to be allowed to create a derivative work. If you have and they agreed ignore everything I said :)
Otherwise, well in my opinion I don't think your in the ethical clear. (just my personal opinion , and maybe someone her with an Ethics degree can tell me why i'm wrong :) )
Did You Seek Permission
Before writing this fanfic? did you seek permission from the original author. Did you tell her where you intended to take her story?
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
no
no, i couldnt. he either does not respond or the email address doesnt exist. i couldn't get a response.
If you made a reasonable attempt
to contact him or her and have clearly stated that your work is your idea of where this other author's characters might go IN YOUR HUMBLE OPINION you are likely okay. A lot of people drop out of sight on the Web for a wide variety of reasons and are never heard from again. This has happened to some beloved people here at BC. I wish the original author well wherever they are and the same to our missing BC pals..
So far as I have seen in your story, you are not claiming the original story as yours, you are reacting to it. This is a free site so you are not making money off it. I would think fair-use comes into play here. You are not claiming that your story is *canon* or approved by the original author, just that it is your response to that story.
If anything, unless it is clear plagiarism which is an absolute no-no, fiction like yours should be seen as flattery to the original author. I mean, you were inspired enough to continue the story, the characters moved you so.
John in Wauwatosa
John in Wauwatosa
Just a note
Fair use is pretty slippery. But common practice allows this sort of thing. A strict reading of the law says, no, it's not allowed. But the only penalty the law allows is recovery of economic injury. There is no economic injury in evidence. It's not really a gray area, it's more puce. :)
This is why I allow fanfics on the poster's responsibility.
If an original owner surfaces and says, don't, then we remove it. Otherwise, it's kind of like grazing your sheep on someone else's pasture. As long as they don't say anything, common practice says that's okay to do. This is why many big companies allow fanfics, they don't want to bind the mouths of the fen who trot out the dough. :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
O copyright
My impression of copyright is that an infringement need to be pretty blatant, the exact words for an extended amount of space. Plagiarism is a bit different, and not really a legal definition but an ethical one, but one that has legal remedies and often finds its way into contracts. Here is where ideas and, to a certain extent, scenes are protected. (Basically because he publishers don't want their reputations soiled.)
However, neither protects characters or events or environments or, even, worlds. For that you have to turn to copyrights cousin, trademark. Related, in that it is still intellectual property, but a whole nother beast. (For instance a trademark infringement does not even depend on knowledge of the trademark being used by someone else.) But trademarks can be, and actually usually are, very limited in scope (ie. their is an Indiana town with the only Burger King that does not sell whoppers in the world, and no whoppers exist within 25 miles of the town. Some Burger stand had the local trademark before the mega-chain was created. Joe's Plumbing in you town depends on the same thing.) Now, by registering and going to a lot of expense a world wide trade mark can be established, but it's useless against prior users. But that will only happen with a very big best seller (or along with the movie deal.)
Once Terry Pratchett told me personally (OK there were several hundred others in the bookstore at the time, and he had a microphone.), that he, and most current writers doing similar things, LOVE fanfics. They whit the appetites of the readers for the real things and keep them busy while the writers write. (But don't ask them to read or autograph your manuscript, or even expect them to admit its existence. Sometime somewhere someone is going to have written, badly, an idea they are going to stumble upon themselves, and they do like money, and have the large house to keep, and ...)
So what does this have to do with Cristine's story? Absolutely nothing, and that's the point. Continuing a story, even using the same characters, is a long way from anything like a copyright violation; is far removed from plagiarism, because she is not writing of the same events as the first story, and these characters were never trademarked, and they could never have been because they are stock characters. It would be like Joe's Air Conditioning in Portland, ME trying to stop Joe's Heating from having a shop in Phoenix AZ.
Joy, Jan
no it pretty much a copy right violation , no way around that
A “derivative work†is a work based upon one or more preexisting works, such as a translation, musical arrangement, dramatization, fictionalization, motion picture version, sound recording, art reproduction, abridgment, condensation, or any other form in which a work may be recast, transformed, or adapted. A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a “derivative workâ€.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/101.html
her Work is by definition a derivative work and in violation of copyright , can't get around that , in all likely hood the copyright holder won't enforce his or her right since well the author according to accounts has disappeared. but that really doesn't mean the copyright isn't in effect.
There ARE ways around it...
Several things come to mind: 1) Abandon'd works; 2) Works in the Public Domain; 3) Works where permission has been granted...
So sorry,
you have shown that a definition of derivative work exist, that does not establish that something is a derivative work. In to which of the classes of derivative works are you casting this story? How do you establish that, the use of he same names? Is it an "elaboration" because it does not cover the same area as the original. That is not the meaning of an elaboration, sorry.
This is not ever, ever clear and simple. But saying that you are writing a continuation of another story does not, instantly, put you into copyright violation situation. An idea can never be copyrighted, nor a concept, nor a common name. Copyright protects the actual words used. And reading a statute and the law requires going well beyond the definitions page.
Fan-fics are not, per se, copyright violations; they are very seldom pursued as such and then usually only as a scare tactic. Successful prosecution is done under trade mark law. Both are torts, and require a showing of actual damage in order to gain relief, as well.
Seek Joy,
Jan
my last thought on this ...
I really have nothing invested in this argument really, but for the sake of the argument I will expand on this just a bit.
A derivative work is just what the name implies a work , derivative from another. To simple put christine01 story can not exist with out the fundamental structure, created by the original authors , character ,setting, prior plot, etc. There for making her work a derivative work.. A more clear cut example I can give you is GPL licensing which forces any derivative work based of the source code to be immediately open to the public, this includes continuation or addition of the original code. And the GPL example has held up in court. So it sets a nice precedence for what is consider a derivative work.
And in turn puts this work technique into copyright violation, To be honest I have no clue what the ethics of this truly means or what would be the ethical obligation on the part of the author is. The original work seem abandoned, but this does not release the copyright to the public domain just because the original author can't actively defended it. But at the same time now that this work has be release , there a fan base so there a obligation for the fans as well.
Anyways my two cents , for whatever its worth
How many do?
I've seen a lot of fanfics go by, ones based on comic superheros, others based on popular novel/movie universes, etc. Did all those people get permission from the copyright holders; Marvel or DC Comics, J.K. Rowlings, George Lucas, the estate of Gene Roddenberry, etc.? Somehow I doubt it.
So that begs the question: if those fanfics are acceptable, for commercially trademarked and copyrighted characters and universes, then why wouldn't a fanfic based on a TG story? I would be a lot more concerned about a cease-and-desist letter from J.K. Rowling's attorney than I would an email from a TG author.
It doesn't matter to me, I would seek out permission before posting a fanfic based on somebody else's characters and universes, in fact I did so before writing "Drawn To Nursing". But you can't have it both ways.
KJT
"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
Disney and ERB, Inc --
-- Two companies who are zealous about protecting their trademarks. And it is trademarks they are protecting though the sometimes use copyright law as another weapon.
DC and Marvel comics have been known to issue cease-and-desist orders to people making money off their characters, even a tiny amount of money. Trademark again. But comic book companies know that the next generation of comic book writers and artists are right now fans, and fans who want to be involved.
Star Trek and Star Wars are famous for graduating fans into the professional ranks. Fanfic is a slippery slope but it isn't all bad.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Slip-sliding away
Agreed. For me, personally, I wouldn't want to take the chance. Personal opinion only, but I would not want to write a fanfic if I did not have express permission, be it Disney or one of my fellow (?) writers here on BC or other story sites; and I would hope for the same courtesy in return.
But the outcry over Christine01's story is way over the top, people need to get a grip! I commented the other day on the FM Hyperboard that they need a fanfic tag such as the one you have here on BC. That and a disclaimer to the effect that the story is based on XXXX ought to be enough for most reasonable people, IMHO.
Karen J.
"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
Satire
I've written (and even drawn) fanfics, but except for satirical things like my Joe Friday, Popeye and Pepe LePew pastiches, I'm not comfortable posting them anywhere. That's me.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
It really depends on what it
It really depends on what it is.
Lot's of fanfiction is published on the net. There are entire archives devoted to different kinds. These days take a look and you can find all kinds of stories about Harry Potter, Dr. Who, Torchwood, etc.
Very common in Sci Fi.
Some authors hate it, some tolerate it. JKR has publicly said that she does not object, although she is somewhat uncomfortable with the X-rated stuff, particularly the Slash (there is a TON of this out there) but only because as a book that was read by many children, she does not want the kids getting to it. So she does ask that it be protected.
Fanfiction really is ultimately good for the genre. You mentioned Star Trek, which has had a huge following of fan fiction. In fact there is a large business of Star Trek novels, and that got its start from fan fiction.
Authors really need to recognize it, but they don't all, and yes they can certainly try and get a cease and desist order. But such efforts are usually counter productive, because it is the real fans that right fanfiction, and if you tick them off, then they won't be fans for long.
I have not written any myself (so far) but would have no problem publishing something, in an appropriate archive, with an appropriate disclaimer, indicating that it is for fun, and so on.
I do have one story bunny that I have always wanted to write, and will probably some day.
A throwback to my childhood days, and one of my favorite series. I always wanted there to be an entry in the Danny Dunn series titled, "Danny Dunn and the Gender Bender machine." I wonder how many people read the old Danny Dunn series. I always wanted to be Irene.
I dunna
The copyright laws and what constitutes fair use are tighter than many people think they are. A lot of stuff online could be taken down with a few words to the right people. Besides Disney, there are authors, like John Norman of "Gor" fame, who adamantly oppose fanfics of their materials. Others, like the Star Trek group, don't mind at all, and even encourage the practice. There's even a pretty good 3d movie being made in the Star Trek Universe. http://www.auroratrek.com/
That being said, at our level, what the reviewer stated went beyond what was legal and reasonable, in my opinion. His comment seemed more akin to birthing offended pomposity through a certain sphincter. As long as you made a good faith effort to contact the author, and then gave credit where credit was due, which you did, then I see no problem. Just be aware that the original author, if the story is really close, might ask you to remove it.
As for the diatribe about rewriting stories to have a better endings, I find the outrage somewhat curious. I did that once to some extent, although, it was more like writing a new story from the reaction to a piece of another story than a rewrite. Redoing the ending? Heck, there's a proud tradition of that in real life. The end of "The Natural" is far different than the book, in fact, I believe that most movies taken from books are adaptations to fit the notions of the producers and directors.
And what of Dr. Sam Beckett of "Quantum Leap"? didn't he rewrite endings every week before the series was canceled? :)
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
My two cents
There are many good comments here. I think , Erin's, Suna's and Aardvark's comments are particularly salient.
My only addition would be to say that *IF* there is any issue, it would be between you and the original author. No one else. Sure, a friend of an author or an interested person could contact the original author and say, "Do you see what she did with your material?" but it's up to the *author* to act.
This Chauncy is just being an a-hole. I would be willing to bet that he hasn't written anything himself.
Any jerk can burn down a house. It doesn't take creativity or intelligence.
Unfortunately, a casual negative remark can really stick with us, even if we know that it's wrong or false.
I think you've done all you can... if the author contacts you, and asks you to take your story down, I think you must, but barring that, FULL SPEED AHEAD and damn the torpedos!
In this case, copyright has
In this case, copyright has to be asserted. I haven't looked at the original, publication of the story that this was based on, but you have to put a notice in. If you don't and publish into the public domain, it's fair game. The laws on this have changed over the years though, so I'm not sure what the minimum requirements are these days.
Copyrights also run out. I find it funny that Disney keeps lobbying to extend the time on holding copyrights, but they of course have made quite a living off of taking public domain stories and creating "derivative" works. Note all of the "A Christmas Carol" knock offs. Trust me they are not paying the Dicken's estate, because it is in the Public Domain.
Franchises like Harry Potter, Buffy, Star Trek and any professionally published work are certainly copyrighted. Some of these universes have very active fan fiction communities, and are actively encouraged, because they recognize that it is not hurting them, and in fact helps them.
In that vain, in fact, there are publishers these days that freely publish electronic versions of books.
Mercedes Lackey for one, has made very effective use of publishing her works, particularly the first book or two of series that she has written, and it has increased her sales on printed books.
Check out: http://www.baen.com/library/ which is a free library of books published by Baen books.
1632 by Eric Flynn (a very good book btw) has set off quite a fan community. Eric actually encouraged it, and has published a number of the best of them in collections, and has used characters added by them into future works in the series that he has written. Quite interesting approach and it's working for him.
Not exactly
In most of the world, you don't have to put a notice up to assert copyright. You may be forgoing your rights to statutory damages by not having a notice and/or not registering but you still own the copyright in the Americas, Europe, Commonwealth countries, Japan and most of the rest of the world, too, except possibly China. You can only give up your copyright by posting a notice saying that you do so explicitly. And while copyrights do expire, they now last an absurdly long time.
Anything posted on BC is copyright by the author per declaration at the bottom of every screen.
And it's Eric Flint. :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
You right of course, sorry
You right of course, sorry Mr. Flint.
As I did indicate the laws have changed on copyright, it did not used to be that way. You used to have to expressely include a notice. But it has changed. I know that you have a notice automatically on this site, but don't know what was done on the original posting.