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This is something that has bothered me for a while in TG fiction (especially ones of the magick variety) because I've honestly never seen it happen.
Why is returning to a boy never the option for a boy magickally changed into a girl? Doctors in stories never suggest that being a transsexual might be a good option for the kids (or adults turned into kids or whatever category it is) and I always wondered why?
Why cant they get mastectomies, go on testosterone replacement therapy, even get surgery to remove their ovaries and other such things or even a phalloplasty if they so wish. I'm not a 100% knowledgeable when it comes to options for FtMs, but seriously why is this never something they are told instead just told just "accept being a girl" it sounds like something FtM's have been told their whole life and it always sends shivers up my spines when supposed loving family members tell them "sorry you're a girl now but suck it up and be one because that's what you are now so face reality."
Just seriously makes me sick to my stomach that these characters can be so cruel and dismissive of these poor kids identities. Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
Comments
not all
In my novel "A Different Kind of Life" the boy in the story, Michael, loses his testicles and penis because of Cancer. It was never suggested that he should be a girl and like it. The whole story was about giving him a choice about what to be (of course, being a BC story, he chose being a girl). I think the main issue is people are so interested in getting to the fantasy that they don't think of the process and the affects of that process.
Katie Leone (Katie-Leone.com)
Writing is what you do when you put pen to paper, being an author is what you do when you bring words to life
Forced fem
I wrote 'Sweat and Tears' largely as an attack on that trope. Stevie refuses to accept what has been done to him.
Good for him!
Holy wow I'm reading it now and staying up well past I should be I'm just.. wow. I absolutely love this piece and I cant wait to finish it but I have to go bed before I do or I'll be screwed tomorrow x.x Sorry, but I love the story :D
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
Thank you
My point in writing the story was to try and show that gender identity is gender identity, and up yours John Money. I went through most of my life trying to be somebody I never was, and I fail to see how that would be different for someone who was switched against what they desired, whether it be by magic, pseudoscience or Evil Pervert Sex Slaver (TM). It is at the heart of transsexuality in its true sense that it is NOT about choice: to steal a badly-remembered line from Laika, a yam what a yam. The difference between a forced change subject and someone born with GID is that the former has lost what the latter never had: congruency between body and mind.
I remember college psych
I remember college psych courses that trotted out the story of the two identical boy twins and the one whose botched circumcision forced him to be raised as a girl. The study said that she accepted and adjusted, but as the reality came out a decade later she did not and in fact became a female to male transsexual and became a male again. Unfortunately both boys later took their lives so one can wonder what would have happened if John Money hadn't stepped in.
Daviid Reimer
There is evidence from the boys that Money was an abuser in other ways. The final tragedy of Money's lies, which were only revealed as such by an investigative journalist, is that they are STILL being reported as facts. I have lost count of the number of times I have read comments along the lines of "gender is a social construct" and found myself shouting "No it ******* isn't!"
And the greater tragedy of
And the greater tragedy of Money's lies is that the general public believes it and that helps fuel their misconceptions of us and think that we choose these feelings instead of realizing that we are this way and did not choose it. They also think that we can be forced to behave appropriately for the body we are born in. And yes it is very tragic the way David was forced to be something he was not.
EXACTLY!
Fuck anyone who doesn't respect your identity, no matter what part of the gender spectrum you fall on.
I don't care what you do to me, I will never stop being a woman and Chelsea. My family even tried exorcism, funny thing is the ceremony actually STRENGTHENED my identity as female. Talk about irony xD
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
Wish fulfilment
For most, if not all, writers and readers here the stories are about wish fulfilment, and who would want to go back after getting their wish fulfilled?
Thank you for your comments
It just was something I wondered about, as I see it a lot in the magick genre. Boy gets turned into girl, and then becomes like a girly girl and it's weird and stuff. Even the ones that fight it eventually conform. I guess it's wish fulfillment but from a canonical standpoint it's inconsistent. People are free to do whatever I mean, but it just urks me a little is all.
And yeah I read your story Katie, kinda sad it never completed. It did get kinda dark though...
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
different story
you might be thinking about How Life Can Change. That is the one that got dark. It is available in it's entirety on BC classic. A different kind of life is more upbeat. I will be posting it again on BC soon or, if you have an amazon account, it's available there.
Katie Leone (Katie-Leone.com)
Writing is what you do when you put pen to paper, being an author is what you do when you bring words to life
Oh, duh
Yeah I kinda figured I might have gotten it wrong x.x
But umm thank you for correcting me. Cant wait to see your repost :D
Still, I love your stuff Katie, you rock :D
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
Forced Fem
Several oft recent stories have looked at this. In "The Improbable Girl" the protagonist after his change starts to work towards getting a sex change back to being a boy. But he acclimated to being a girl anyway. "The Fem Ray" went after a type of story that annoys me where some guy uses technology or magic to turn some innocent victim into a sex slave instead of just going to a bar to meet girls. In "Cindy's Prom" the boy is magically turned into a girl, rejects it but discovers happiness as a girl.
For me, I just don't see any fun in going back to being a guy.
Makes sense
But a more accurate story would of transsexuals would be a girl who was turned into a boy and then returns to being a girl.
I understand the wishfulfillment thing. Though I think even someone with a complete female identity would not want what some of those stories do to boys to make them "girls." Torture is torture after all, and even if it ended up in being pretty, it wouldn't be worth it IMO.
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
I agree completely....
Though my motivation for reading TG fiction falls firmly in the "wish fulfillment" camp, you're right--I do not enjoy stories in which the protagonist is forced to change gender. As I wrote on the Fictionmania Yahoo e-mail group years ago, femininity for someone like me is a joy, not a punishment. As a matter of fact, I wrote a long, ranting slam against the whole "forced fem" subgenre, and was met with a tsunami of angry responses (most of which were of the "I don't recall seeing anything you've written!" variety). Therefore, I feel somewhat vindicated reading your post.
That said, I give "victim of circumstance" feminization stories (like Sue Brown's "Home Alone", and Kat Walker's current "Summer Of Love") a pass, because in such stories, it usually turns out to be what the protagonist really wanted anyway.
Livin' A Ragtime Life,
Rachel
For some
For some it is a wish from the writers who feel that they are in the wrong body and as some said its their hearts desire.
For others they write and conform to what their readers want.
For me I'll be honest. I'm what I consider a CD. Some may not like that term but for me I have no true desire to be female and don't care what they deem what I should consider myself. I wear the clothes, see that I don't look good in it (I'm ugly and no amount of makeup will change that) but don't care.
Some don't want to hear that but that's me and not them. Now don't get me wrong. I wouldn't mind trying it once to have some form of experience but to say, "See you do want to be one," is not true. Its and experience not a life request. Would I conform? Who really knows. Its just a fantasy. I tried drinking but that didn't mean I enjoyed it. I found no satisfaction with it and it made me sick so I don't do it.
Now another problem is that if I did write a story where the male goes back many readers will not like it for it didn't conform to their set of standards and may dump on the writer, me, as saying that they have no idea of what or how to write. Not all mind you, but some, those that want, to have it their way and not mine.
But I did write where a few did experience it but that person or persons weren't the main protagonist. I will just say that its far and few that the male to female does go back to being male. They are there but are generally not the lead protagonist. Keith Sinclair does it out of love and understanding. He's not afraid to wear his heart on his sleeve.
Many of BB's have it where they change back. Some don't, some were tricked and others don't even know it. Yes I've heard it all before about Identity Death, not just in MtF but by other means, thus other types of stories.
No many just don't see a reason not to turn the protagonist back because most do harbor a secret desire to stay the opposite sex and thus write it the way they see their story.
This is my opinion and I was not paid any political or magical promises that they could never keep anyway.
Ibi
Ibi
I fully accept you as a CD and am glad you exist in this community. If I could (and if you'd be okay with it) I'd hug you and tell you that you rock!
If you wish to write stories where the transformed go back to being guys go for it I say! I bet there is more that would like it than you think.
Thank you for sharing this with me and I don't care how ugly you think you are I bet you look adorable in your cute clothes :D IMO more men should wear skirts and stuff, but I'm slightly (only slightly xD) biased on that.
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
Crossdressers
Lot of rubbish written and spoken about them, and I will admit there can be an element of snobbery, so here's my take.
My dream was never about wearing the clothes, but in being somewhere in my life where wearing said clothes was seen as the appropriate thing. Clothing as a badge to an extent, but clothing as a very secondary issue. My body was my concern.
I don't 'get' crossdressing. By that, I mean that it doesn't speak to me. Neither does football*, nor a lot of modern jazz, nor Marmite or marzipan. It doesn't put me in a superior hierarchical position, it's merely a foreign country. I tend not to read CD stories here because I don't connect fully with the narrative tension, and for no other reason. If, in any way, you feel that there is an element of sneering from a superior position from anyone, rest assured it won't be from me.
*Football implies the application of a foot to a ball, which is why I always use it to mean football. 'American football' is a minority sport played by very big men in armour, as opposed to rugby** football, which is a thing of grace and beauty.
**Rugby union, of course. Rugby league is 26 psychopaths on speed....
I think
The general maliciousness that transsexual people hold towards CDs and transvestitism is because Trans people themselves get compared or related to CDs when they aren't.
However I'm an enlightened transwoman (wow never thought I'd be able to call myself woman, alwayhs went with girl or gal oh how life can change :D) and I realize that their identities are just as important as my own. They deserve rights too and the right to not be ridiculed or oppressed.
If Ibi wants to put on a cute skirt and rock it then more fucking power to him :D
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
Not exactly what you're talking about, but...
In one of my earliest stories Benjamin Franklin seems okay with the transformation (struck by lightning, how original...) but decides to continue to live as a man as best she can for strictly practical reasons, knowing that an American "Founding Mother" wouldn't have been taken seriously in the sexist 1700's...
But yeah, I'd like to see the idea of someone reclaiming their male identity developed at least once in a story. Maybe a tale told by a magical MtF turned medical FtM who no one suspected had ever been a girl; who surprises whoever he's talking to by being sympathetic toward an FtM transsexual who came out and started showing up en femme at work. Rather than join in the backstabbing mockery of this young woman, the universally liked and respected old Mack (or Sarge or some similarly butch nickname) decides to break stealth and relate his own experiences, how it felt when everyone was telling him he had to be someone he wasn't. Call it GENDER IS A BITCH or some catchy title...
Maybe set in a universe where magical transformations are rare but not entirely unheard of ("You mean like that Jennifer Stevens broad? I always figgered that was a hoax!" "Not a hoax, Lou. I've met Jen Stevens. She's the real deal..."), so that the story is not immediately dismissed by the crew as the ravings of a lunatic.
hugs, Veronica
"Government will only recognize 2 genders, male + female,
as assigned at birth-" (In his own words:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1lugbpMKDU
Sounds awesome :D
I'd love to see that!
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
I recently finished a story that breaks that troupe
called "Mirror Mirror" which you can find here:
http://bigclosetr.us/topshelf/fiction/50818/mirror-mirror-ch...
OMG!!!
I remember that one! It was awesome! Though I still wonder exactly what happened to Norman to turn his reality around I really liked that story.
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
thanks, princesschelsea !
you got me blushing, thank you!
Quite often...
...stories featuring a boy magically transformed into a girl have the magic give them a dose of acceptance of their new situation as well. However, I'd be suspicious of any that had a hyper-masculine boy turn into a hyper-feminine girl (presumably that's what the "Identity Death" tag over at FM is for) - accepting being a girl and dressing/behaving like a Stepford Wife are two completely different things - it should be possible for the transformee to dress androgynously (let's face it, most male clothing is regarded by Western society as perfectly acceptable for girls to wear) and behave largely as before, with a few modifications to account for their new body. The "acceptance factor" removes a lot of squick, particularly if the transformation makes the body reject any attempts at re-masculinisation (e.g. after a double masectomy, the breasts grow back).
There's a lot less in the way of F2M magical transformation, but it's probably likely that the victims are treated in a similar way - i.e. become stereotypically masculine and never consider crossdressing or feminisation surgeries.
As the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only left-handers are in their right mind!
Yeah
Though girls can get flack for dressing too masculine too. If you're seen as butch it can have dire consequences and honestly it's insulting to a FtM because he's a guy and he wants others to view him as a guy. But if he's seen as a butch girl, that's not a guy. Even if he doesn't have horrible violence committed against him, it still hurts deeply that no one sees him that way. Though FtMs have made the martyrdom unfortunately too, as in the case of Brandon Teena.
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
me either Princess
If you read the story I posted recently. My explanation why the 11 year old cant be transformed back into a boy was the doctor said what was done to him was "too extensive and would be dangerous maybe even life threatening to attempt to change him back" But I left the option open when he gets older and his body gets stronger that it might be a possibility. He wont acecpt it, what was done to him fills him with rage and anger
Yeah
Kinda Science fictiony what happened to your kid, but still I am really looking forward to more chapters of your story. Besides Science Fictiony is fun stuff, and honestly seeing writers like yourself, Ibi, Tels, Dorothy, ect (all newer writers I mean, except Tels and Dorothy they like have been doing it a while though it feels newer to me I've been on this site a loooooooooooooooooooooooong time XD)
I'm kinda a readaholic, I'll read most anything, I honestly bet I've read at least 50% of the stories on this site. I just love reading too much xD
I don't always comment though... I should change that.
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
Another story
There was a story at Big Closet about a boy in a school with mandatory gender testing. The results showed that the boy would be transgendered but he claimed that it must be a mistake and the next testing showed that he wasn't transgendered and he returned to being a boy. I don't know who wrote it nor do I know how is it called. Do you know that story?
epain
that was my story, I think
Its called "False Positive", and you can find it here:
http://bigclosetr.us/topshelf/fiction/46567/false-positive
Yes, I remember that now....
At the time, it made me wonder about the opposite extreme--what would have happened if a person who tested negative on the transgender test wanted to transition anyway.
Livin' A Ragtime Life,
Rachel
Thank you
Thank you for the link.
I think that The Manumission Game by Trismegistus Shandy would fit here too. The hero of that story was castrated and feminized by his kidnappers but he pretends to be a normal man. There is more in the story but that could be spoilers.
http://bigclosetr.us/topshelf/book/49099/manumission-game
epain
Transitioning back
I raised a similar question on the tg_fiction mailing list a couple of years ago, and I've been meaning to write up an essay based on the conversation in that thread to post here. (Search the archives of the group for "Different views of gender identity in transgender fiction".) I think there's some cognitive dissonance going on when the same people read mundane stories about transsexuals going through transition, vs. fantastical stories about people transformed against their will by magic or sufficiently advanced technology. (Some people only read one or the other, of course, and there may not be any dissonance going on there -- not in that respect anyway; few people are entirely immune to it.) We probably just engage different parts of our brain, using different subsets of our tastes and personalities; realism is sacrificed for the sake of an emotionally satisfying story, and most writers and readers seem to find it a more interesting character arc when a cisgendered male temporarily becomes a transgendered female but then, after some experience, accepts her new body and forms a new gender identity.
There are handwavy explanations in some stories for why hormone therapy and SRS is not an option for people transformed by magical or alien tech or whatever. For instance, in Diane Castle's Ayla stories, Ayla is one of the few mutants who got a gender transformation from their mutation and weren't happy with it; he still identifies as male and is going to increasingly desperate lengths to find a mad scientist who can change him back, since mundane doctors can't do it. And I think I've seen one or two ubiquitous transformation stories, where lots of characters get transformed, and some of them retain their old gender identity, maybe to the point of transitioning back. But even there the viewpoint character usually accepts or constructs a new gender identity based on their new biological sex.
I've got a couple of ideas for stories where people who are magically transformed try mundane means of changing back, and your post has inspired another such idea, but it will be a while before I write any of them; I want to finish my stories in progress first.
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