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Picked up a useful book with recipes for punchier prose. It's called "Edit Yourself - A Manual for Everyone Who Works with Words" by Bruce Ross-Larson. Thin hardback for $4.98 from Barnes and Noble. Worth it.
- Erin
Comments
I have tried
I tried to edit myself once. I ended up getting into a huge fight with my editor - harsh words were exchanged and feelings were hurt. I ended up not speaking to myself for days, which forced me to actually speak to other people. I was just about to develop an actual social life when I patched things up with myself and crawled back into my cozy little shell.
Thanks for the tip, Erin, I for one will check it out. Maybe with something to back myself up, I can avoid another nasty breakup ... or is it a breakdown?
Scott
Writing is like prostitution. First you do it for love, and then for a few close friends, and then for money.
-- Moliere
Bree
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.
-- Tom Clancy
http://genomorph.tglibrary.com/ (Currently broken)
http://bree-ramsey314.livejournal.com/
Twitter: @genomorph
Could be useful, and Scott, ah ....
A simple guide to avoiding big errors in writing, hum?
* * * *
Scott,
When your inner voice and yourself have an arguement, that is not good sign. Think of Sybil or Dr Jeckyl and Ms Hyde. Ah, those sexy Hammer horror films.
I, on the other hand NEVER argue with my self.
Oh yes you do,
Do not,
She's right, you do it all the time.
All three of you are out of order, now sit down and behave your ...
-- BANG! --
-- THUD! --
Move along folks, there's nothing to see here.
John in Wauwatosa
John in Wauwatosa
Inner voice?
No, no, no - when it happens I actually split in two - my good half and my bad half. Of course I always win, cause I'm better armed.
Good ... bad ... I'm the guy with the gun.
Ash - Army of Darkness
Bree
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.
-- Tom Clancy
http://genomorph.tglibrary.com/ (Currently broken)
http://bree-ramsey314.livejournal.com/
Twitter: @genomorph
you and your editor
Just make sure you avoid a workplace romance. They never work.
I'm Not All That Sure
a book about "punchier prose" is a good thing for me. Do they have anything a bit more diplomatic?
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
My phrase :)
Lots of stuff on unnecessary words, weak verbs, peripheral phrases and such. Good reminders.
But no lessons on sounding like Condi Rice. :)
- Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Would This Help
me in writing stories?
May Your Light Forever Shine
Yes
I think it would help everyone who writes, it's just a nice list of rules for things to "fix".
- Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Thanks
Ordered from Amazon.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
If I weren't so busy...
... I'd make this an immediate offer, but I have way too many projects at present. So, sometime in the New Year (that'd be 2008) I'll be offering my services as editor and proofreader
Edeyn Hannah Blackeney
It's definitely possible
... to self-edit. I recommend learning a good deal about writing and grammar before doing a lot of writing. Although using commas, semicolons, ellipsis, colons, emdashes, and plurals is sometimes like practicing alchemy, and there are different schools of thought on the best way to write, it isn't really rocket science. 98% of the English grammar a native English speaker needs to write in English can be learned or, more likely, relearned in a few hours, and people can certainly disagree on the specifics of how to write. Acquiring a particular style ain't the thing. Writing popular fiction is mainly about telling an interesting, coherent, smooth story without gumming up the works with fancy nonsense and therbligs that yank the reader out of his happy place.
Even if you do have an editor/proofer, he will love it that you've made the effort to make your "baby" as good as you can make her before you send the little darlin' on to be fine-tuned.
I'm not saying that a new writer should be a near-expert before he or she starts writing, a highly unlikely event: creative writing isn't taught very much in high school and, from what I've heard, is often taught rather indifferently in college, and written grammar is easily forgotten if you don't use it. To a new writer, the whole writing experience is usually a bewildering exercise, and often a new writer doesn't even know the right questions to ask. I know I didn't. Still, the tools are out there, and an editor/proofer may not always be around when you need him. It's well worth the time spent planting your nose between the pages of a book or three.
Really. :)
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
Rule out Rules
Aardvark and I have tilted in this particular joust before ......... Or is that jousted in this tilt ..... or conceivably jilted in this stout.
What I wanted to say is that I think new writers, any writers, should just try and write. Write without fear of rules and regulations.
Having sworn to write no more I am almost tempted to try break my vow and pen something that would break all the rules. But that would mean reading books to find out what the rules are and if I did that .... I wouldn't have time to write the bloody thing in the first place.
And it would break the only rule to which I ever did try to adhere, which is that the writer should enjoy himself. Write just for the Hell of it.
If we all read the same books, we will all end up writing the same thing! Well that's not quite true yet but there is a distinctive stylistic tendency to be observed. Somebody even mentioned the word fashion in this context in a comment the other day. Heaven forfend!
I do fear that all this underlining of the importance of rules and the crucial importance of pleasing readers, pandering to their need for easy reading, can only inhibit new writers. Can only deprive them of the fierce pleasure of creating something new; the joy of listening to the voice of a character that one has created; the wonder of hearing in the interplay of a dialogue something which once was wholly yours but is now on the edge of slipping away from your control. Can destroy for them the pure selfish delight of doing something just for the Hell of it.
And who cares if it's crap? Better to have delighted in the writing of crap than to have sweated joylessly in the production some regimented, desiccated, structured slab of hygienic, impeccably law-abiding, prose wrapped round what once was a story.
Oh well .... It takes all sorts. And of course I am forever in mind of Cromwell's plea "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken." Not for that I for a moment think that it applies in this particular case of course, but nevertheless .... Where was I? .... Oh yes ..... Well I just wanted to throw another point of view into the mix as I thought it was getting a bit one sided.
Hugs,
Fleurie
P.S. Actually I think Aardvark himself writes very well. And I am prepared to admit he may even enjoy it despite his knowledge of the rules and the need to tailor his tales to them. But it is the new writers of a more timid disposition for whom I am concerned, in whom I wish to instill the brazen confidence of the unknowing.
I believe ...
... a writer writes primarily to communicate. Sometimes, in the case of those who use writing as therapy, or those who keep a diary or journal, they write to communicate to themselves (or to others who come after them). For writers of fiction, the goal is to tell a story -- to communicate fictional happenings for the entertainment or edification of others.
I write fiction because a story demands that i write it. I think of a situation and the characters in it, and they call to me and insist I write it. Knowing how to tell a story so others can read it (and even WANT to read it) is a good thing, because it makes to easier for the people you are trying to reach to connect to your tale. That's where rules come in.
Fleurie, you have an instinctual knowledge of how to tell a gripping story. That's why I want you to keep writing -- because I'm a selfish wench who wants someone as good as you to keep telling me stories that make me care. Most of what I learned about how to tell a story came from being a voracious reader. When i write, I think about the things better writers have done (and all of the stories I've read before), and put them to work for me.
Folks who say it's a good idea for writers to think about things like paragraph lengths, formatting, and punctuation aren't trying to impose their will on anyone. They aren't trying to intimidate new writers, but to give them tools they can use from the very start to tell their stories the way they want to tell them, and in a way that feels right to them AND to their readers. Knowing what works and what doesn't isn't a bad thing in writing, anymore than it is in programming, carpentry -- or painting and sculpture. If an artist knows the rules, they can use them -- or not -- to get the effect they want.
For example, Picasso knew the rules and could draw a very realistic cow -- but that knowledge wasn't there to slow him down. He used what he knew to create something like Guernica, a work that hits hard -- despite the unique nature of the presentation.
Please write more, Fleurie. *hugs* You're too good not to.
Much love,
Randa
"The universe is expanding. That should help ease the traffic." -- Steven Wright
Perspective, perspectives ...
You are so good at taking a bit of thread and weaving a tapestry with it, I have to applaud you.
Somehow, guidelines to help an author write more powerful, clearer prose, something an author generally wants to do, have evolved into hulking demons of oppression. A gentle nudge (for example) that after 200 pages of exposition, where we still don't know any more about the motivations of the main belligerents, the story should, perhaps, move a bit -- and because the nudger mentions a book he read, he is suddenly Cardinal Fang at an auto de fe. :)
The picture of new authors cowering in fear, of misshapen writing-book readers sitting in dark robes in candle-lit chambers, their yellowed, ink-stained fingers turning the pages of the innocent, is intriguing, but not quite accurate.
Fleurie, you are very good at painting mental pictures and having a little fun doing it -- it's part of what makes you an interesting, articulate writer with fans who hung on, week after week, to a story that's likely longer than Warrior. It's not an intentional insult to say that you follow most of the "rules" unconsciously. Your instinctive objections to them seem to revolve around writing for readers, which you equate with the "rules," and, if I catch your drift, regard as something of an artistic sellout.
Okay, then. Well and good. Fly like a hawk; soar like an eagle.
However, for those like me who don't mind a few tips on making stories more clear, powerful, and evocative (that, coincidently, are the kind that make most readers happy), we'll take the other train. I'll take good advice that makes sense to me where I can get it, and writing books are an option. Somehow, I'll muddle through. :)
Regards,
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
One of the world's best writers,
Robert Anson Heinlein said a number of times, in differing words, and I certainly agree,
"Creative writing can't be taught. But the creative can be taught to write."
An example from "Time enough For Love."
“And, Clyde-what was it you used to teach?â€
“‘Teach’? I taught ‘Creative Writing.’ I told you I had a good education.â€
“So you did. ..."
... and Lazarus immediately changes the subject. You need to read it in context to get the full flavor of it.
Holly
It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.
Holly
So true
Let's hear it for RAH. May he rest in peace.
Somehow this subject has been turned on its head. The "Rules" aren't rules at all. Nobody has to follow them. They are basic guidelines, most blindingly commonsensical, although not all are obvious to the beginner -- until you show them to him. The vast majority are designed to make what the author wants to say clearer, more powerful, and interesting to the reader, qualities the vast majority of authors want in their writing. What's the beef with that?
Sure, presentation, like public speaking, is a skill that anyone can learn. The irreplaceable key, however, is what is being presented. To tell a good story, as RAH knew, one has to have a good story to tell. Smear all the lipstick on that pig you want, you still won't fool momma with it.
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
picasso's google-eyed bull
I didn't know a few guidelines were so oppressive. They're not commandments from God.
I sure don't let them boss me around. And I don't think they will necessarily cause all writers to write the same. Not good ones.........But Fluerie does raise an interesting question about what a writer's duty is to the reader. To "pander", give them the easiest possible read, a brainless high rather than a challenge? I've heard it laid down like a commandment that you must not get too fancy or weird with your prose, that it yanks the reader out of the story- the ultimate sin. But as a READER I sometimes want more than a Dean Koontz potboiler, to luxuriate in something distractingly postmodern or so densely stream-of-consciousness you're not sure exactly what's going on; and I'm glad these authors weren't writing strictly by the rules. Sometimes.
What borders on stupidity?
Canada and Mexico.
.
one rule
I've taken my only rule for writing from a Hemingway statement:
(Not only does that mean don't slack off, but also it means keep writing. Often I want pieces to be better than I can make them, and keep waiting and waiting for luck to strike - bad idea.)
I think all the other 'rules' are just suggestions really (that even goes for spelling, imho - as in a dialect), but when a writer ignores or forgets them it is hard on the reader, and so the writer must have a very good excuse or give the reader a big reward for putting up with it.
Rambling viewpoint
I am in a conciliatory mood. Anxious to maintain sweetness, light, and general harmony wher'er I go.
So...... I shall comment on the comments individually after clarifying my own approach.
I have nothing against rules or books of rules or the reading of books of rules. Even less am I against guide lines. I don't even hate readers. I wish them well. Long life and prosperity.
I am not really a writer. Just someone who thought of a story line and decided to run with it to see if I could. As it happened I enjoyed the experience immensely and would wish others to come to the same pleasure.
I am by definition an amateur and have no wish nor ambition to be other. I am thus in the very privileged position of having written solely for my own pleasure. The plaudits of the crowd is a naturally a source of gratification, as I am not without vanity, but it is as nothing compared with my own satisfaction at seeing what I have wrought. My writing has brought me friends here and friends are beyond value, but that is apart from the writing itself. That is mine and for me.
Now I imagine there must be others like me. Motivated as I am. It would be very depressing for me to think otherwise. We do however seem to be in a minority judging for all the attempts to improve us. Make our work, if work indeed it be, more palatable to others.
It saddens me that some people, new writers, feel they cannot post without being first scrutinised, counselled, and educated in the requirements of the literary world.
I think this is bollocks. And it is to encourage such people to post and be damned, to soar, however modestly, like Aardvark's hawk.
Aardvark you take my tapestry and add an elaborate fringe, not to mention a few intricate tassels, to it allowing your own imagination free rein to achieve dramatic effect. I never said that their fingers were yellow!
Otherwise much of what you say is measured and true. But you are coming at the subject from the same old direction. You are concerned with making your readers happy.
There is no insult in being told one sometimes follows some of the rules. There seem to be so many of them that such is almost inevitable. And I don't equate readers with rules. I do however believe that if you attempt to please your readers too much you can indeed water down your own integrity as an amateur.
I am pleased that Laika picked up this last, and made the point more clearly than I. I wonder if she has read Gould's Book of Fish by Richard Flanagan? And I agree that guidelines aren't a commandment from God. But wonder why they are treated as such by some.
I blush with shame before Holly. For I fear I have never read anything by Robert Heinlein. I hope though she will forgive me and we can still be friends. Actually I don't think I will read him now. The quotation “But the creative can be taught to writeâ€, sounds just a mite patronising to my ears. Not to mention being of dubious validity.
Generally I rejoice at Jan's comment. Although for me the pleasure is a little diluted by his sentiment that one has to justify one's actions to the reader. As an amateur I need neither to justify nor reward.
I have to be careful with Randa because she flatters me and I would hate to lose that. I know people don't mean to intimidate, only want to help etc., when they write improving works. I am not blaming them; they are only earning a crust.
I just think that a study of such works should not be regarded as an essential prerequisite to posting on this or any other amateur site. And I know that if challenged I would be hard put to give concrete examples of this, but nevertheless there is sometimes an insidious undertow dragging one towards such a conclusion.
Nor am I against people observing the basic rules of grammar. I have been known to do so myself. And I try to present in short paragraphs, rather than great big towering sky-scraper blocks of prose. But presumably people were taught this by the age of ten together with 'How to Address an Envelope'?
I don't think the Picasso analogy is waterproof either. Poetry is conceivably akin to painting. Writing stories isn't though. I could elaborate on the differences more or less indefinitely. I will content myself with sailing on the other tack and pointing out that Guernica was a result of breaking with convention. A result of passion overriding accepted art shibboleths. Picasso didn't need to know the rules and then decide which ones he was going to ignore. He just painted to express what he felt.
I am beginning to weaken about not writing any more though. I have been toying with something over the last fortnight. It has nothing to do with DofC though. It is more a meandering excursion. A literary doodle. Far too rambling in structure. The point of it is deliberately obscured. Many readers will have some difficulty in following it and some will find bits of it quite incomprehensible. I am having tremendous fun with it though I don't know whether I will ever post it. Strangely enough it features a reference to one of Randa's character names in 'No Obligation', but this is not of my doing. It is an inescapable dictate of the tale.
Hugs,
Fleurie
Well Said Fleurie
I too am an amateur and have posted some stories on this and other sites.
My approach is "How do I want this to sound?"
I am possibly therefore, disregarding the rules in order to satisfy the way I feel my story should come across to others. Perhaps I am wrong for doing so, but I view my stories like films and whilst some of my attemps to conjure a particular feel to my story writing fail, I am generally happy with the results.
I try to improve with each new bucket-load of prose I produce, but as Fleurie has already said, it is for because I want to not because others demand it. I realise in some cases that I am breaking the rules, that my vocabulary could be expanded or better; that my grammar is not always correct, but at the end of the day do I give a damn?
No.
The piece is finished and posted and it meets with my own approval.
Could I have improved upon it?
Well I would be wrong to think otherwise, but would it have come across in the same way? Would it have had the feel I was looking for and felt I achieved?
Possibly not and it's the fear of changing something from what I wanted to something that someone else thinks it should be, which surely would have made it theirs then and not mine wouldn't it?
"I wouldn't have done it that way..." they say. No perhaps not, but you didn't have this idea either did you?
I feel that my spelling and grammar are not too far off the mark and maybe I have broken the rules as far as the books say, but the most important thing I think, is to have got the story down and out there. Improvement comes with practice and if reader statistics are anything to go by, for an amateur, I don't feel I do too badly. As I say, improvement comes with the next piece where I put into practice what I think needed inproving with the previous piece.
I may not be the most read author on this site, but I am certainly not disappointed with the figures I regularly get for my work.
From my point of view, I must be doing something right.
It may well be the wrong way to approach, but I for one am not changing my methods, whatever the books may say. There is more than one way to skin a cat and if we view the cat as the story idea and the skinning thereof as the story itself, then yes, there is more than one way to write it. I am happy with the results I attain and like Fleurie, I write for my own enjoyment first and foremost.
I have also painted and received mixed reviews about that too, but the most important thing is that I enjoyed the process and if I worried about whether I was going to get good reviews I would never produce anything. Like painting, you have to learn where to leave alone as well as where to embellish and sometimes, we get it right, while sometimes we don't, but if we don't enjoy the journey, there would be no point in doing it at all would there?
Nick B
Fleurie writes again???
YAY!!! *dancing in my chair* No matter where you ramble, hon, or how obscure your point may be, I will follow you. *smiles, hugs* Please keep weakening -- yes, I'm ignoring the implied 'maybe' in your comment, but only because I want it to be true.
As for your response to my comment, I certainly don't insist folks study before they write. I don't consciously deconstruct the work of authors I enjoy before putting pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard). I do think I unconsciously emulate how they do what they do because the stories they wrote moved me, and I wanted to be able to do the same for others. But that's just me.
You wrote DoC solely for your own pleasure, and that's fine. You did post it so others could read it, and I'm very thankful you did, because it was very very good. (And is it still flattery if what I'm telling you is true? *smile* The dictionary defines flattery as "excessive and insincere praise, esp. that given to further one's own interests" -- since my praise is sincere, it's not flattery. *wicked grin, sticking out my tongue* So there! *hugs* )
I'm not advocating some uber editor acting as gatekeeper -- talk about shooting creativity in the foot! If someone has a story to tell, they can tell it any way they like. To attempt a baseball analogy, I don't want to discourage anyone from stepping up to the plate and taking their swings, even if it's just to feel the weight of the bat as it moves.
I guess my only point is that, if someone chooses to tell a story, most of the time they're telling it to someone. And if they want that someone to relate to and understand the story they're trying to tell, a little attention to HOW they tell their story might serve their goals better than letting the chips fall where they may.
And please please please please PLEASE write more?
*hugs tight*
Much love,
Randa