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So, a recent topic got me thinking in a new direction now. What's the difference between a serial and a novel published a few chapters at a time? Is there a difference of story structure? Does a serial need to be episodic?
The ever faithful Dictionary.com defines a serial likes this:
anything published, broadcast, etc., in short installments at regular intervals, as a novel appearing in successive issues of a magazine.
That's pretty broad. What do you think separates a serial from a novel? Is it something different or is a "serial" just a delivery method? What do most people think of when they think serial?
And while we're on the topic of publishing things a piece at a time, what about open ended stories? And stories that are unfinished? How many people really want stories that never end? How frustrating is to read a story that may likely never be finished? If you start writing a story, and publishing it, is there a responsibility to finish it?
I can't speak for Justme and Leeway, but I had always thought of my story as a novel rather than a serial. Perhaps that's just word play? Also, would people feel cheated to read a serialized novel (there's another term to toss around) if the end doesn't come or if installments aren't regular?
This is just my personal
This is just my personal preference but I think serials need to be episodic, otherwise the story is analogous to a gigantic run-on sentence.
I think stories need a beginning and an end. For serials, a definite end may never come so making it episodic is a nice compromise.
- Terry
It's in the delivery...innit..
A novel is a somewhat chunky thing, all of a piece. Whether you sit for however long to finish or do it in bits and pieces, it's still a novel. Which may of course be serialized... whether simply to make digestible chunks or because it aint finished yet. Then there's the choice of finishing it first and then 'publishing' as a whole or in... serialised chunks. So... I guess it's in the mind of the author or perhaps the reader. Is one more than the other? I don't think so... but then I'm not sure I have the stamina to write a novel. Serialised.. or otherwise. So I'll just write the odd story. Odd probably being the operative word. But I do like novels at times. Even with me cereal.
Kristina
Serial = Episodic
I'll agree with Terry that serials should be episodic; there needs to be a major event or character development in every section.
Authors should also be very careful before starting to publish in serial format. If you aren't sure exactly where the story and protagonist are going, it's best not to publish anything until you do know all the details -- you can't go back and change an event or conversation that shows that your protagonist is or is not aware of a particular fact if the pertinent spot in the story has already been published.
My own tendency is to avoid reading serials until they are complete, unless I'm familiar with the author and have reasonable confidence that they will complete the story in a reasonable amount of time.
Amelia
"Reading rots the mind." - Uncle Analdas
"Reading rots the mind." - Uncle Analdas
I disagree mildly and personally, not generally
"If you aren't sure exactly where the story and protagonist are going, it's best not to publish anything until you do know all the details" -- good advice for some but not for all.
If I knew all the details I would have already written the story. For me writing is a lot like reading, discovering twists and turns.
Like in Blue Moon, lots of major plot points are being invented as necessary, and being consistent with what has gone before is part of the challenge.
I know me. If I outline a story, more than a few notes on what is essentially background, I'll never write the story. I've got file folders full of outlined novels. Outlining five or ten chapters and doing it right is exactly as much effort as writing that many chapters and steals all the fun out of the writing and is no fun itself.
I outline publicity campaigns, and I leave large blank spots to be filled in later, but you have to outline there to contain costs. Outlining a longer piece of fiction, well, I'd rather not. If I were writing novels for pay, I might do it. But here, I'm writing for fun and outlining is not as much fun as writing without a net. ::grin::
-- Donna Lamb, Flack
-- Donna Lamb, ex-Flack
Some of my books and stories are sold through DopplerPress to help support BigCloset. -- Donna
I'm the same, Donna
I've killed more than one story idea by outlining it to the point where it ceased to be organic. I need to let the characters find their way, or it stops being fun for me and turns into work.
And what good is that when fun is the only currency in which you get? *grins*
Randalynn
That which we call a novel
I think that there are two sorts of serials. The first is a novel published in episodes. Both Charles Dickens and myself, specifically in DofC, have written thus. :) Not to mention Admiral Krunch.
Then there is the never ending serial, a sort of written TV 'soap'.
I suspect however that a novel appearing in serial form may well reflect its episodic nature. From my own experience I would suggest that there is more of an onus on the writer to make the chapter endings into cliff-hangers, to perhaps exaggerate the suspense. Perhaps onus is the wrong word suggesting as it does a duty, whereas, in my case at least, it was simply a conscious thought that I had to leave something at the end of each posting for the reader to chew on, to heighten his or her expectation for the next chunk of the tale.
Not that it worked. The postings were way too far apart. No-one could be expected to exist in a state of suspended expectation for a month, or two, or three. Nevertheless I was conscious of it and it probably flavoured my writing. Had it been written to be read at a sitting it might well have been different.
Not necessarily better though. Chapters I know should end in this way and so being more conscious of it perhaps was a good thing.
Finally .... Yes if you start a story, you have a duty to finish it. That is your binding obligation to the reader. Not to please, nor instruct, nor amuse, nor ..... but to complete. In 'Zuleika Dobson' there is of course the famous maxim 'Death cancels all appointments' and that I think should be the only exception allowed.
As to whether the ending should be open ended or not.... Well it depends what you mean by open ended. As I have learnt to my cost :). People see things differently. I have to reply elsewhere on that score.
Hugs,
Fleurie
OK then, I'll speak for myself ;)
I do envision Leeway as a novel, with a definite beginning, middle, and end. I have an idea of what I want the end to be; it remains to be seen whether the characters will cooperate, but one way or another there will be an end.
On the other hand, as I'm writing I seem to find every 4,000-8,000 words or so I've written a mini-story which, while it requires the context of earlier bits to make sense, is otherwise somewhat self-contained, though it may have a "hook" at the end to encourage the reader to come back for the next chapter. This has more to do with my inexplicable need to wrap up each chapter in a neat package so I can put it behind me and get on with the next one, and a tendency to get impatient if it takes much longer than 8,000 words to come to a good "stopping point," than it has to do with anything resembling prior planning or intent on my part. I suspect it's an expectation I developed from the sorts of things I read growing up.
Personally, I think of a serial as analogous to an ongoing television series, which may or may not have plot lines that span individual episodes, and which will continue airing episodes as long as there is sufficient interest from the advertising sponsors; whereas a serialized novel would be analogous to a mini-series, where the plot lines span the entire series more or less and the series isn't intended to continue indefinitely.
I'll feel disappointed if the end of "Being Christina Chase" never gets published, sure - but cheated? Out of what? The time I've already spent thoroughly enjoying each episode?
Serials
To me the difference between a serial and a novel is in how they're written.
A serial adds the challenge of working forward, with no ability to go back and change the first few chapters to better suit your ultimate story.
I rarely will read serials on this or other TG sites, because such a high percentage of them never get finished. Or, if they do get finished the endings are atrocious.
Too many "serials" rapidly become nothing but writers publishing what amounts to a dreary diary.
A "novel" suggests the writer has written the entire story and has an ending that is adequately supported by the middle and the beginning.
Also, how many times do you buy something without looking at the price? With a novel the author can signal what the final length of the story will be. A reader can make a value judgment based on the first five hundred words whether or not she wants to invest that amount of time. A serial forces the reader to invest without full disclosure.
I read the first chapter of your story, on the whole it is well written, but I haven't read any more for all the above reasons.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
The Condescension of Virtue
I get sick of the condescension evident here and elsewhere by those who prefer to read or write novels to those who just like to read or write serials. It's like "someone has to be wrong here, novels have to be superior to serials because they're what I like."
Serials and novels are different. Something posted as a novel instead of a serial has the advantage for the reader that it is known that an ending is out there, it exists. A serial has the corresponding, apposite and pretty much equal advantage that the ending has not yet been written and the reader has the chance to interact with the writer and participate in shaping the ending.
Someone suggested that novels have an advantage in that the reader can know the "cost" of reading a novel in the sense of investment of time. I submit that that is a wash. It doesn't work to the advantage of either form, the potential length of a novel can be as much of a draw as a repellent. The unknown quality of a serial in that regard, similarly. I've quit just about as many novels as serials at comparable points of completion. Knowing or not knowing how long it is going to be can be a plus or a minus, though for some people it might always be a plus there are probably just as many for whom it is always a minus.
Someone suggested that unfinished serials are failures. Equally, so are unfinished novels, then, but no one gets to see them. I'd rather have an unfinished serial like "Thirty Million Reasons" out there to enjoy than any number of unfinished novels I will never see. So how is it an advantage to novels? A really good unfinished, but posted, serial has to be a greater asset to me as a reader than an invisible novel I don't even know exists.
I've heard way too many complaints that when a serial isn't finished the reader has been cheated. It was free. Free is free. Is the wind cheating when it stops blowing? Even in an unfinished serial, an author has likely invested hours of sweat, imagination and emotion. The reader has invested perhaps minutes of -- what? Enjoyment? Anticipation? Compassion? Excitement? Some readers give back comments and around here that's often an even trade because authors frequently reply. But at the very least, even in the failure of a serial, the reader is left owing the author more than the author owes the reader. It can't be any other way because the author is the one who has been giving and the reader has been the one receiving, the debt of the reader's attention is exactly matched by the author's and every other motion is from author to reader.
I respect my readers. I appreciate the attention they give my works but I did the work and having done it and offered it up for free does not put me in anyone's debt. I may feel bad if I disappoint my readers, I know I will, but that's emotion not economics.
This thread turned pretty much into an opportunity for some novel-partisans to bash serial writers and those who enjoy serials. Cut it out. Too many people think their personal preferences are virtues. It ain't so. De gustibus non est disputandum. Preference isn't the point.
Serials and novels are different. Enjoy them for what they are -- or don't.
But please stop pretending that there is some virtue in preference for one form over the other.
-- Donna Lamb, Flack
-- Donna Lamb, ex-Flack
Some of my books and stories are sold through DopplerPress to help support BigCloset. -- Donna
I Agree with Donna Here
Each person has their own take on what they like. Its obvious some people are very opinionated. Neither type is better. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Each is liked by different people for different reasons. There is no need to prove one is better than the other. Both styles are good and have their uses. End of subject.
Sephrena Lynn Miller
Amo Amas Amat
Donna -- aren't you asking a bit much?
We are writers because we believe passionately in our opinions. We express those opinions in stories. They might be as simply stated as "love conquers all" but we go to great length to support them through developing characters, plots, and scenes.
To ask us not to state opinions, to "stop pretending" there is virtue in one opinion over another would run exactly contrary to who we are.
Every time this discussion comes up someone throws out Dickens. Hmmmmm. Does anyone here actually deny that writing as a discipline has advanced since his day? To me, the serial is an anachronyism. Some people like to write in a Victorian style and others like to read it. That pretty much is their business, but virtue exists in me believing my style is the correct style as that is the only way my work will ever have a "voice."
Write whatever you want in any style you want, but don't expect everyone to think it's wonderful. And, when an opinion is elicited don't whine about a response. If, in the attempt to answer the question, an opinion is given, that is simply a writer being a writer.
We don't always color within the lines, if we did we would be transcribers.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Serial Killers
Okay, as I've said before, I absolutely adore serials. I always have. Even when I was a little kid, I'd seek out books that took place over several volumes rather than single bound editions. They may have been novels, but they were published in a series that required the reader to consume all the works to get the full picture. I'll get bashed for this more than likely, but one SERIES that I enjoy greatly are the Lord of the Rings books. The end of the first book is a serious cliff hanger, forcing the reader to get a hand on the second book to see exactly what happens. Even within the books, the story is roughly divided into smaller sections, two to each volume. It is, essentially, a serialized novel. You can read the books in sections, or you can read them as one, and it doesn't matter- they work as both.
This is what I think makes a good serial- the ability to write small semi-self contained works that, when combined, make a whole that is more than the sum of its parts. I don't read many longer 'novel' sized works, with my reasons being more practical than mental- if I start something, I want to finish it without stopping, which leads to days on end with no sleep, no food, and co workers who yell at me 'cause they think I'm having a bad case of PMS. Shorter serialized works allow me to break this need to continue down into manageable chunks, but still hold on to characters I love and keep a long, engaging story flowing. At the same time, if I SHOULD decide to collapse all the serial chapters together, I think they should still work as a whole. A little bit of an obvious break is okay- I wouldn't say that my own work would read exactly uber-smooth if it was all together- but the pieces should have a definite fitting point. Another example of what I like is Discworld. To be more precise, the Rincewind subplot within the series. Each one almost, ALMOST, works as a book on its own, and there are several 'endings' within the series, but in order to truly understand the books as a whole, you have to read all of them, from The Colour of Magic through The Last Continent. It's a series of novels within a series of novels. To stretch the point further, if you read ANY of Pratchett's works that happen after maybe Sourcery, you have to have read nearly all the previous books in order to understand every last joke, every reference, and the full history behind what's actually happening. They're great novels, but they're still a series, and rely on the reader's knowledge of previous installments to carry you. Most of the books aren't even divided into chapters, which just goes further towards making them installments in a single, greater work.
The last 'novel' I finished was 'The Da Vinci Code'. I sat down in a chair and DID NOT MOVE for something like 20 hours as I read the book, and when I finished it, I was less than enthused. It had a good ending, and was long enough for what it needed to say, but because of my preference in stories just didn't hit me as well as some other works I've read that would seem more juvenile to most, such as Earthsea, another serialized novel of sorts. That's just the way I read, but I feel that neither novels nor serials are mutually exclusive to begin with. Who doesn't want to write the next great epic? And if you do it in three chapter bursts or a hundred chapters at a time, is it not still an epic? And if it's good enough, will readers not want more? No story truly has an ending, just a convenient stopping point. Some writers just have to use more than others to get their point across.
Read what I wrote
No, I'm not asking for too much. Just civility. If you think that was a whine, I'll just have to state my opinion a little more strongly. Apparently, you think your opinion is privileged but mine is a whine.
I didn't ask you to stop pretending there is virtue in one opinion over another, I asked that people stop pretending that there is a virtue in disliking serials.
I never asked anyone to think that what I wrote was wonderful, so don't hang that one on me. What I asked for was a little less of a sneering attitude from novel-partisans.
All I'm asking for is courtesy, if that isn't too much. Basically, I'm asking people to stop attacking serial writers.
Btw, I didn't "throw out Dickens", either. I don't think you actually read what I wrote but simply decided to continue the argument in exactly the high-handed, attitudinal way I protested.
Now, are you going to whine about it?
-- Donna Lamb, Flack
-- Donna Lamb, ex-Flack
Some of my books and stories are sold through DopplerPress to help support BigCloset. -- Donna
The more I think about it the more I think that wasn't enough
So here goes, all the recent posts about serials and serial writers in a mirror:
Now do you see how insulting this thread has been to people who read or write serials? And this is only stuff that has come up this time, this happens everytime someone decides to announce that they don't like serials but decide they have to justify their opinion with an attack.
-- Donna Lamb, Flack
-- Donna Lamb, ex-Flack
Some of my books and stories are sold through DopplerPress to help support BigCloset. -- Donna
Wow
eom
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
what does eom mean?
Sorry to be the rube, but what does it mean other than 'end of month?'
Not sure
End of message?
Intersting stuff here guys and gals. I'd comment but most of the points have been made.
I like both serials and all-in-ones/novels, what else can I say?
John in Wauwatosa
John in Wauwatosa
Stevie EOM = End of Message
It's what you say when someone takes you words and twists and turns them.
I think that's what people in Donna Flack's profession call a spin.
Maybe that's why polticians are all so darned popular.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Sorry
I like your stuff, Angela, and I like many of the things you do here, donating stories and such. I've done the same and intend to continue to do so.
I'm not sure why you thought my earlier protest against the unfair treatment serial writers have received was worthy of sneering at and calling a whine but I rebutted as civilly as I could.
I'm in hobby mode here, so cool it with using my profession to smear me. THAT's spin and you know it.
Pray, what do you do for a living? ::smile::
You want an apology from me if I stepped over some line? Okay, you got it. I obviously offended you somehow and I'm sorry I did that. I'd undo it if I could.
Now, are any of the novel-partisans here apologizing to the serial writers? ::grin::
-- Donna Lamb, Flack
-- Donna Lamb, ex-Flack
Some of my books and stories are sold through DopplerPress to help support BigCloset. -- Donna
Apology Accepted
And I apologize for saying you were "whining" after you termed my remarks "condescending."
I'm in marketing and have won many national awards by writing words that say exactly what I want them to mean. I'm plain-spoken. If I had intended any of the slurs you attributed to me through your parody, they would have been fully apparent.
Since you didn't understand -- I will say it differently; anyone who can write a serial is a much better writer than I am. They have my utmost respect.
I believe every word, sentence, paragraph, or scene should advance the story. It is illogical to think you are advancing the story if you don't know which direction will move you toward the end. Before I start writing I "know" what my theme is and I "know" how the story will end. Many times when I write a story I will become much more familiar with the characters and both the theme and the ending will change. If that happens, I sometimes totally revise the story to reflect that change.
If the definition of a serial is something that is written in parts, takes into consideration the advice of the readers as it advances, and freezes the chapters that have already been posted -- you can probably see that it goes against the grain of my writing philosphy.
I agree with Amelia. The writer should know where they are going before they start. Of course, that direction and plot line is subject to change, which I also know Amelia would agree with as I've written a novel with her. She doesn't easily give up on what she has plotted, but she will.
You mentioned Thirty Million Reasons - Erin's unfinished serial. I recently asked her to take up this project again. In our discussions I suggested she change it to a novel, in that she would go back and change the previous posted chapters to allow her story to flow better in the later chapters. Whether or not she does that is, of course, her business. Erin ran into a wall on this story for some reason. In my opinion it was because she wrote herself into a corner by not bringing in enough exposition in the earlier chapters. She told me where the story was going and to get there would be very hard without earlier chapter changes.
I admire those writers who can dance on the head of a pin. I can't. Writing with the ability to change chapter two just before I type "The End" is about all I can manage.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Thanks, Angela
And I'm sorry that I used the word "condescending", I thought it apt at the time but I did not mean you in particular but a general attitude I perceived in a number of posts, not just in this thread but in others.
I'm not sure which "slurs" you think I have attributed to you through my parody II'm not denying I did so), but that exercise was illustrative. If it felt like slurs when I did it, well I'm afraid it felt like slurs in the original. Emotionally, as a writer of a current serial, I felt under attack. I responded, perhaps unwisely but I tried not to single anyone out in that first post where I complained of being pummeled by virtues. ::smile::
I respect you as a writer a great deal, of your recent work, I think "Sky" is particularly notable because sequels are so hard to do right. I also respect your commitment in social spheres that I have detected through reading your posts here and elsewhere.
Thanks again.
-- Donna Lamb, Flack
-- Donna Lamb, ex-Flack
Some of my books and stories are sold through DopplerPress to help support BigCloset. -- Donna
Dear Donna
You have a right to your passion. I once apologized to a judge, in the hall, for barking at him from the witness stand. I was the plaintiff in a libel suit - which we settled out of court during the trial. He said, "No apology needed. If you didn't feel strongly about your case I wouldn't want you in my court."
Your defense of the serial is admirable. Many, many people love reading them and/or find great joy in writing them.
I hope you understand that I find it incomprehensible how the serials writers write a cogent story. That is not a slam, it is merely a fact. I tried it once here, and found it very constraining even though I only did three chapters.
BigCloset provides a warm home for serials. I wouldn't want to disturb that. It is part of what makes this place charming.
I'm well aware that novels have their own set of problems. They can be less than reader-friendly. I used to post my long stories in parts. Often people will make suggestions as to where the novel should go in their comments (Or in some places. . .where the writer can go.). With the complete story "in the can" it can be frustrating on both sides. Sometimes the readers' suggestions are something I wish I would have had in mind while writing and I know the readers wish they could direct the story. Part of writing a charming story is trying to reward the reader for guessing correctly where you are going -- sometimes.
Novels can be off-putting because of their size. Many people like their reading in small chewable bites. This is a strange notion as the reader can easily come and go from the site, but a study at Storysite a few years ago proved conclusively that the most popular stories (by hit count) were those in the eight to ten thousand range.
I'm also aware that there are fine publicists. Without the people in your profession who take the garbled words of our "leaders" and make them into something we can understand, we would have even less of a true democracy.
Anyway -- I'm happy you're such a fine person who is a passionate about your craft as I am. I detest those who say "lighten up" -- do you suppose that's where the whole blonde thing started?
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
'Twas I, said the sparrow ........
.... who 'threw out' Dickens. Although how anyone could take the reference seriously baffles me.
I would however like to put on record that if I really knew what "writing as a discipline has advanced since his day" meant, I might indeed deny it.
Does it mean that current writers study their craft more assiduously? Or that they take greater care in composing their sentences, paragraphs and chapters? Or that their hand writing is more legible? Or that their research into the motivation of the human heart is more detailed and structured? Or that they have read more books entitled 'How to write a Best Seller', 'Two hundred and One Ways to Enthrall the Illiterate Reader', 'A Two Syllable Thesaurus' etc. Or that they religiously start at 9 o'clock of the morning and finish at 5 o'clock in the afternoon having taken a forty minute break for lunch and having fulfilled their daily quota of 3,245 words?
What it evidently can't mean is that better stories are now written, better tales told, more pleasure given to the reader, than in his day.
There is no such thing as a correct writing style. They vary from individual to individual, from generation to generation, and the most one can hope for is that one's own has a recognisable personality that befits the tales that one tells and that may still be readable when the current fashion has passed.
There is no such thing as a correct anything. It is the concept of a pedant.
What matters is the tale and the characters therein. And if together they bring enjoyment to some.
Hugs,
Fleurie.
Cheating Can Be Hard Work...
Donna: "I've heard way too many complaints that when a serial isn't finished the reader has been cheated. It was free. Free is free. Is the wind cheating when it stops blowing? Even in an unfinished serial, an author has likely invested hours of sweat, imagination and emotion. The reader has invested perhaps minutes of -- what? Enjoyment? Anticipation? Compassion? Excitement?"
Yes, the author works harder than the reader does. But a con man generally works a whole lot harder than his victim. That doesn't make it any easier on the victim when he finds that his expectations have been dashed.
With rare exceptions, the simple act of beginning to tell a story -- online, in print, on film or tape, even around a campfire -- carries an implication to anyone who cares what's happening that all questions will be answered in due time. An author who quits a serial in midstream (or who "ends" it by declaring everything a dream or throwing all the characters off a convenient cliff) is saying in effect that readers' expectations don't matter to her.
Maybe they don't. Many -- most? -- authors write primarily for their own satisfaction and anything they get from others is incidental. But the author who doesn't finish her story is going to seriously disappoint anyone who invested time and thought in her storyline and characters. In a context where feedback is possible, it's almost guaranteed to be heavily negative and even insulting.
And those who argue that "since we enjoyed the first 95% of the story, the lack (or inadequacy) of an ending shouldn't count for much" miss almost the entire point: we valued what we read before BECAUSE of the implied promise that it'd all fit together in some interesting fashion. Its failure to do so will retroactively spoil all of that first 95% except for whatever few items would have been clever even without a story context.
A writer, as we've heard from everyone from Ellen Hayes to Bill James, is not a public utility. Nobody's under any obligation to satisfy, let alone please, their audience. Much as some of us might like to consign writers of deliberately unfinished serials to some suitable level of Dante's Inferno, we're not in a position to do so.
But we're still going to feel cheated about the whole thing.
Eric
(I mentioned "rare exceptions" before: a storyteller can warn the audience at the start that she doesn't know how the story will end. If that condition is specified up front, the reader can make an intelligent investment decision. Similarly, depiction of the entire story from the start as a dream or drug vision -- something that's known to the reader not to make logical sense -- sets up different conditions from the conventional implied storyteller-audience bond.)
Serial writer = conman?
Actually writers as conmen is a pretty good analogy. But I'm about ready to give up on this. No one seems willing to acknowledge that serial writers need to feel free to do what they do.
Eric, if you read the next paragraph in my post after the part you quoted you probably saw me making the same point you're making here. People do feel cheated if a story gets abandoned. Authors do feel bad when it happens.
My point in the quote above was that in actual fact, they have not been cheated whether the author or the reader feels bad about it, an actual economic default has not taken place. The constant reiteration of this idea that serials are bad because a broken serial "cheats" the reader is what I was protesting.
A feeling of disappointment is not the same as actually being cheated and I resent the use of the language in that way.
I've got two abandoned serials posted right here on BC, "True Wishes" and "Bimbo Construction Kit". I did not cheat anyone. Both stories are readable as they are, they are not cheats.
I know I disappointed readers by not continuing them, but I did not cheat them. It disappointed me a great deal, too, and I also felt cheated. But I didn't cheat anyone, I simply failed.
Because of the nature of serials (in the meaning I've been using, Aardvark's current story is not a serial in this meaning), because of the nature of serial-writing as analogous to live TV, a serial writer must have the freedom to fail.
I'm tired. For the second morning in a row I've spent time I normally use to write defending my writing from what I perceive as attacks.
Perhaps there are no attacks, attack implies intent to harm. But I feel attacked for trying to entertain people with my particular skill set. If I have to write my longer stories out completely before posting to keep critics happy, they simply will not get written.
And I think someone may actually have been cheated if that happens.
-- Donna Lamb, Flack
-- Donna Lamb, ex-Flack
Some of my books and stories are sold through DopplerPress to help support BigCloset. -- Donna
Exactly
It's no more cheating someone than when your favorite Tuesday night television program gets canned
I, for one, have enough self-confidence issues that even being aware of them, I need to have intermittant feedback. This is the reason I post the way I do. I've been asked why I don't write the whole thing at a go... it wouldn't get done. I'd move on to other projects
Edeyn Hannah Blackeney
Twice Wrong
Dear Donna,
I was wrong in saying in my earlier comment that there are two types of serial, one of which is the on-going story such as in a TV 'soap'. Aardvark's classification of this as a series is far more apt. Wrong too in trying to implying that all other stories posted or published in episodic form were all one sort of serial. There are obviously all sorts of gradations and exceptions and variations and ....
I never admit to more than two errors at any one time, but if for one moment I thought that my own remarks could be interpreted as inferring that one sort of writing was any better, more laudable, more worthy than any other, then I would do so and willingly. And grovel at the same time.
I am not really qualified to pronounce on this. I am someone who had a one-off tale to tell. Not a writer in the sense of someone who is gifted with the creativity to continue to possible construct, to bring into being, stories on a continuing basis. Continually reinventing. But it seems to me that all forms of stories and those who write them must be equally deserving of respect. Surely it is just a question of what form appeals most to the creator of the tale? What form suits best their individual skills or the tale itself?
So if you want an acknowledgment that someone who has written something that I am not capable of writing is worthy of all respect and has the freedom to do whatever pleases them, then you certainly have it from me.
And as for cheating? Well again it seems to be a question of semantics. I agree that the reader is not owed anything. What I wrote I wrote for my own amusement and the reaction of readers was not a factor. And yet .... and yet .... I admit that one of the things that enabled me to rise above my congenital idleness and struggle through to the end was the fact that i felt that I had a strong obligation to those same readers, all five of them, to finish. A sort of moral obligation. Not to do so would in my mind equate with cheating.
But that is a personal approach. And my circumstances, having only a one-off tale, were different I suppose. It was also a personal challenge. And I agree also that if I had had to complete DofC before posting it, it too would never have been written. So the facility is needed and I am eternally grateful to Erin for providing it.
Hugs,
Fleurie
"That Depends on Your Definition of Is..."
It's a delicate point, and I'm not even sure that I did it deliberately.
But my assertion was that a reader under those circumstances would FEEL betrayed, hostile and, yes, cheated -- not that the author was actually cheating him in some tangible way.
I made it clear (I thought) later on in the posting that the author doesn't have to care what other people think, since it's her story, and she's under no obligation to finish it, though she'll have to put up with the flak if she decides to hang around. (And no, that's not a suggestion to you or anyone that they leave, even if I were qualified to make such a suggestion, which I'm emphatically not.)
Anyway, it sounds as though we're in basic agreement about the main point -- we simply reverse the sequence and in doing so reach opposite conclusions. You're saying, in effect, "the reader may feel cheated but the author hasn't done actual harm" where I'm saying "even if the author hasn't done actual harm the reader will feel cheated." That difference in emphasis (and personal validation of our POV) seems to stem directly from an author versus reader perspective.
(FWIW, I didn't intend my note as an attack, personal or otherwise -- just an objection that your assertion that the author had more standing in the matter because she put in more work wasn't valid. I did start out intending the con man analogy to be provocative, and I was going to back down from it afterward, but (as you observed) the more I thought about it the more it seemed an appropriate description, in its own way, of a writer of fiction, so I deleted my qualifying sentences.)
Best, Eric
My $.02
So, a recent topic got me thinking in a new direction now. What's the difference between a serial and a novel published a few chapters at a time? Is there a difference of story structure? Does a serial need to be episodic?
The ever faithful Dictionary.com defines a serial likes this:
anything published, broadcast, etc., in short installments at regular intervals, as a novel appearing in successive issues of a magazine.
That's pretty broad. What do you think separates a serial from a novel? Is it something different or is a "serial" just a delivery method? What do most people think of when they think serial?
*** Just a delivery method, as far as I can tell. Even chapters are constructed the same, or they should be, with a catchy lead in and a cliffhanger of sorts.
And while we're on the topic of publishing things a piece at a time, what about open ended stories? And stories that are unfinished? How many people really want stories that never end? How frustrating is to read a story that may likely never be finished? If you start writing a story, and publishing it, is there a responsibility to finish it?
*** Personal preference: I like to see a story end. There are three parts to a story and one of them is the end. It's the last thing a reader sees of the story and very often is the part that sticks with him. I was taught that the ending is very important. A weak climax can leave an otherwise good story flat -- or worse. I read through a story to see how it ends. I realize that people differ on this, and that's fine. We're not arguing national defense.
I can't speak for Justme and Leeway, but I had always thought of my story as a novel rather than a serial. Perhaps that's just word play? Also, would people feel cheated to read a serialized novel (there's another term to toss around) if the end doesn't come or if installments aren't regular?
*** If a long story ends, it's a novel. A serial, which to my mind, if it's fiction, is a novel fed in pieces, is supposed to end, too. Otherwise you have a series, which may or may not end. Star Trek is an example of a series. (Prior discussions here more or less defined the two terms) Would people feel cheated if a serialized novel didn't end? How would you feel if someone removed the last chapter in a book you've been reading? Still, people understand real life. I do. After starting a serialized novel that I decided to put on the shelf for revisions, and therefor left a single chapter dangling, I decided that I'd finish a novel before dropping it onto the public because I know that it will be timely, and that the chapters will fit as a constructed cohesive whole. In the meantime, I enjoy bending everyone's ear to tell them about the wonderful new novel I'm writing. :) It's a personal decision that works for me -- and maybe I have more free time on my hands than most authors here, so I can afford to do it that way.
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
Brownies
I like brownies that are soft (not gooey, you understand), but have a thin layer that is nice and crisp on the top. A few small unmelted chocolate chips mixed in is nice but not absolutely necessary.
My friend liked brownies that were cakey and crumblely. He also liked walnuts on top! (And he knew I grew up in Texas.)
One day the local paper had an article titled "The Best Brownie". It had like this fudge layer in the middle and they put pecans (which my friend made a homonym for the thing we kept under the bed at my grandparent's before they finally got a septic tank.)on top.
At last we agreed on something concerning brownies: some (other) people had no idea what a good one was.
Hugs;
Jan
Novel vs serial??
Hi all:
TG Sine here again...with my answer to the question novel vs serial?
A Novel is a story that is fiction, ie Tarja, my story. It is a work of fiction, yet it has suspense in it.
A serial IMO is like if I created another story with one of the main characters - ie Marion. Some romance novels are serials. They are based with one family or in a same town.
I think that is the differences between a novel and a serial.
TG Sine
PS: Tarja's new chapter will be up soon.
I See Two Types of Stories
When I read, I classify a story into one of two types. Is it a story driven by something, or is it driven by someone? Admittedly any story requires both, but for me one always is dominant.
Depending upon the answer to that question, I expect different things. If it is about something, then I must have an end. If it is about someone, I do not need an end, since that would mean the character is dead. Reading Dumas' final Musketeer book taught me that this makes for less than an enjoyable read.
I also believe that stories about someone are easier to serialize, or make episodic. Though each still needs to tell a specific story, otherwise it is just a chapter. This is what I try to shoot for with my Merchant tales, I would like each to be fairly stand alone, but they need to consistently push the life about the main character. However, I recognize that anybody who wants to start reading now, will tend to start at the beginning. That is a significant number of words; therefore, it is less likely that a person will start. It probably would be easier to get readers if they were three separate stories of the same events using different people.
But gosh darn it, I like Drake. And I like Drew/Gaby or any number of repeating characters. I like spending time writing or reading about them.
My final comment about serials, is that I think those of you who try to keep to a regular schedule of submissions are mad, stark ravers. I would think that adds so much pressure to your life?
Serialized Novel
Is a term many publishing houses drool over. If a novel will bring, say, $9... breaking that novel into six pieces for $4.50 each is way more profitable
Prime example of this is The Green Mile by Stephen King. He wrote the whole thing at a go, then the publishers wanted him to try serializing it, so he found good places to break it up and with a bit of re-write at the ends, they all made way more money than they would have originally
The real difference is in what you're referring to, plural or singular. A serial refers to the collection as a whole, of which an episode is one part. A serial is made up of episodes
Edeyn Hannah Blackeney
A serial is just one way
A serial is just one way something can be published. The same story might be published as a serial, and then pulled together and re-published as a novel, or a novella, or a series of short stories. A serial might benefit from a "what has come before" explanation and/or links at the beginning of each installment.