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Are there any contributors here who have British Military experience? I was in the US ARMY in the 60's, so I know about general military stuff in America. I get the impression that , at least for a Leftenant the atmosphere in the British Army is considerably more professional and far less militaristic than the US Army. It is also my impression that if a soldier gets fed up, they can simply resign and go home.
I also do not know about a Leftenant taking a post on a Heavy Machine Gun for a short while because one of his men had another short task.
I'm afraid that my own Military experience was rather unremarkable. My TG nature was very strong even then, but I had no idea about it. I was an excellent shot with the Pistol I carried, took orders with out question, and never showed up with a hang over. Still, I was judged not manly enough for patrol duty; them fearing that I would get beaten up by a drunk. So, I wound up on the Duty Desk. So, I really have little idea about how a "Manly Man" would have experienced things, especially in the British Military.
May I have some advice please?
Gwen
Comments
Commonwealth Countries say Leftenent
Lieutenent history on Wikipedia
Even though we say 'LEF'tenent we still spell it Lieutenent. Although its common throughout the commonwealth you can blame the French for the pronunciation issues.
Nobody...
I hate to be a pedant
but it's spelt lieutenant.
Angharad
Angharad
e vs a
oops. sorry. lieutenAnt
Nobody.
e vs a
oops. sorry. lieutenAnt
Nobody.
somehow I submitted this twice. sorry.
More likely the alphabet
The distinction between the letters "V" and "U" is recent, so it's entirely possible that the confusion was visible. The same problem led the Spanish to invent a "silent" H in words which might be confused that were spelt with the ambiguous "V" before "U" was invented.
So Spanish Uevo (from Latin Ovum = Egg) is now spelt Huevo, to avoid the temptation to pronounce it Vevo. We took a different route, and invented "W."
The Latin Alphabet originally had twenty-three letters: A B C D E F Z H I K L M N O P Q R S T V X, and the rest were all invented to solve various problems when the script was adapted to different languages. The "Latin" alphabet now has hundreds of characters, when you count the many variations of it used around the world.
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Oh, please mayn't I use it anyway?
My memory of the usage comes from movies made in the 30's, and I difstintly remember the fellow pronouncing it that way.
Say What?
I was going to keep my mouth shut, but it is too bloody close to Memorial Day, and the memories I have are still too fresh to let this go unsaid.
The implication of Ms. Brown that the U.S. Army is not professional is nothing less than a slap in the face to a person like me my son, who did two tours in Iraq as a combat medic and anyone who has stood a watch on the wall. I can hardly wait to see what Ms. Brown has to say on Memorial Day.
As to the British Army being far less militaristic, (whatever that's suppose to imply), I dare say she should spend some time in the mess of the Welsh Fusiliers or the RTR before she passes judgement on those outstanding lads.
If I do have some advise, I would recommend Ms. Brown stick with subjects she knows something about.
Nancy Cole
"You may be what you resolve to be."
T.J. Jackson
Gad, that never stopped Hollywood!
I actually did serve during the Vietnam years, though state side, and found some of the youngsters I served with to be drunken punks. I did also serve with numbers of Combat Veterans, and I found that those who survived came back greatly matured.
Admittedly, I did not fit in awfully well, due to my very feminine nature. I was dependable, honest and merciful to offenders. My CO tried to send me to the Chaplain corps but because of my MOS, it was not allowed.
I did not intend to offend the service of your son, but truly the Iraqis do not want us there, and Dubya sent our boys there for the oil. It is NOT our oil, it is theirs. I think that the honor of our sons and daughters is being betrayed there.
My opinion of Vietnam is that many good men served and died on a fools errand.
I think that you are a great author, but it is clear that you never liked me, and I am sorry.
Much peace
Gwen
Offensive?
I have zero military experience or knowledge, but what I make of Gwen's post is a very brief overview of her experiences from the 1960s. And a lot can change in 50 years! As far as I can tell, she wasn't deliberately insulting any particular breed of soldier.
I fully expect the vast majority of soldiers turn up on time, carry out their duties efficiently, and avoid questionable behaviour when off-duty. However, as news reports often state, there's always a small minority (the exact proportion probably varies from base to base) who behave otherwise - they may be rowdy and get drunk off-duty, they may make inappropriate decisions in combat.
In the Iraq conflict alone, I'm sure you've heard media reports of waterboarding, embarrassing photos taken of treatment of PoWs, and collateral damage - which, while fairly rare and performed by only a small minority of soldiers, do have a large impact on public opinion.
Even though the decision to go to war was based on questionable evidence, whatever the personal feelings of the soldiers, as I said above, I expect the vast majority carry out their duties efficiently. Although their job is significantly different to almost any other, I'm positive it's not the only career where employees carry out their duties to the best of their ability, even though they either don't agree with the purpose of them or the decisions of management - after all, they're not going to change management's mind by refusing to do their duties, and it could spell the end of their career, as well as produce negative references.
I think the lesson we can all take from this thread is that discussion of present-day military is a sensitive topic, as many contributors here have either direct experience of the military or have relatives / friends in the military; so any inference, no matter how vague, of soldiers being anything other than perfect role models, is likely to be misinterpreted by some as a direct attack on the military.
Discussion of soldiering and warfare tactics pre-20th century, on the other hand, is probably more likely to be civil, as it's beyond living memory.
As the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only left-handers are in their right mind!
The Professional Fighter
Greetings
I have no personal military experience, however, I would suggest that the vast majority of those fighting for USA, United Kingdom and other NATO forces are professional in their duties. For the forces of the UK those who join sign on for a period of years and they can leave at the end of those period or continue for another period.
All officers in the UK from Second Lieutenant upwards will have gone through Officer Training.
There are, of course, the few who are negligent in their duties.
There are questions about the political decisions about being involved in various conflicts, but so long as orders are legitimately given, the troops will carry out what is required of them.
Brian
From a distance...
Everything looks much better from a distance. The British Armed services have their own scandals, but one doesn't usually read about them in the Baltimore Sun or the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, and the UK is certainly more advanced regarding GLBT issues.
Hazing, occasional involvement in torture and rape, drunkenness, and periodic lapses into other criminality are common in almost every all- (or primarily-) male subculture. The British and American Armies are no different in that regard, although the US probably has a particular problem, at least to judge from the headlines.
http://newsjunkiepost.com/2010/01/26/13rd-of-women-in-us-military-raped/
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jan/23/opinion/oe-ream23
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oew-marshall30jan30,0,510658.story
In the USA, in particular, the Armed Forces are disintegrating at a fairly rapid pace, because it's very difficult to attract recruits.
The top ranks of society no longer join the military, although it used to be very common. At Princeton, in the Fifties, more than half of the male graduates joined one of the armed services. In the twenty-first century, less than one percent follow this path.
Increasingly, even the lower and middle classes avoid the military, despite increases in pay and allotments, so the USA is actively recruiting foreign nationals with promises of early citizenship, lowering admission standards --- a "little" criminality is OK now, a little insanity seems more like a personal quirk, and a little stupid is pretty much fine --- and raising recruitment bonuses, as well as hiring mercenaries.
Hiring mercenaries, of course, acts to demoralise the services as a whole, because the powers-that-be will pay two or three hundred thousand dollars a year to a "guns-for-hire" outfit for the same job one is being paid thirty thousand dollars a year to do.
But lowering admissions standards does the same thing. It used to be that being accepted into the military was an unmitigated stamp of honour and societal approval, but now one shares the stage with the (relative) dregs of society.
And then one confronts the right-wing Christian takeover of some portions of the US military --- notably, the Air Force Academy (also famous for the Tailhook scandal, which seems inevitably ironic and apt) --- but no branch has entirely escaped:
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/17380
Puddin'
From a distance the world looks blue and green,
and the snow-capped mountains white.
From a distance the ocean meets the stream,
and the eagle takes to flight.
From a distance, there is harmony,
and it echoes through the land.
It's the voice of hope, it's the voice of peace,
it's the voice of every man.
From a distance we all have enough,
and no one is in need.
And there are no guns, no bombs, and no disease,
no hungry mouths to feed.
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
A question about "The Daily Show".
I know this may sound dumb, but what network carries that news program? I can not believe that the American people have gotten so calous as to ignore the pleas of a woman who was raped.
In my work at the VA Hospital, it is completely astonishing at the number of female soldiers who come in there complaining that they were raped! Of course, I am completely against any woman serving in or near any war theatre.
G
The Daily Show is on Comedy Central
The show itself is political comedy/satire. While stories may be based on fact, the stories themselves are frequently commentary and opinion. It is not a news show.
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Con grande amore e di affetto, Andrea Lena
Love, Andrea Lena
So it is not a real story?
?
Here's a link that might clear things up
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8005198.stm The Daily Show may have gotten it right, but they often attach satirical commentary, making it hard to determine if the story is entirely legitimate. It would appear to be a real story. Perhaps doing a Google search might shed some light. The public isn't callous if it isn't being reported. They're misinformed or uninformed, perhaps, but not callous.
There are exactly zero news shows...
...that aren't filled with commentary and opinion, in many cases pure propaganda.
Many young people these days *prefer* the Daily Show as a source of news, first, because the commentary is obvious, and he doesn't go out of his way to disguise covertly-paid political advertisements and "talking points" as news.
The mainstream media are paid to relate the most astonishing lies as if they held some semblance of truth, and to withhold the raucous laughter and derision they deserve. Almost everyone knows this, which is precisely the Daily Show target audience.
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
I can't argue with a single thing you said!
and at least Stewart has a sense of humor. Well said. Not as perky as Katie, though.
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Con grande amore e di affetto, Andrea Lena
Love, Andrea Lena
Wait a minute!
"And then one confronts the right-wing Christian takeover of some portions of the US military --- notably, the Air Force Academy (also famous for the Tailhook scandal, which seems inevitably ironic and apt) --- but no branch has entirely escaped
While some joint service fighters do have tailhooks, and some Air Force squadrons may fly the navy variant which are equipped with tailhooks the Tailhook Scandal was a U.S Navy incident. A general overview may be found here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tailhook_scandal
And while I won't challenge your expert knowledge on all things military, one of my older brothers retired from the USAF as a major a few years ago. He is not particularly religious, and I believe if there was undue influence being exerted by the christian reich on the Air Force (particularly at the USAF Academy where he was an instructor for four years) he'd have mentioned it. In fact, he and his wife mentored two female cadets during their time there, and they have become outstanding officers. Both even found out about our father's death and sent flowers and condolences.
Karen J.
"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather
"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin
I acknowledge your superior knowledge
I'm as flummoxed by the exact identities of military organisations as I am about professional sport teams, and require both a programme and a personal interpreter to make any sense at all of them.
Now that I've benefitted from your information, I see that a "tailhook" is a specific device that enables certain aircraft to land on aircraft carriers. Fancy that... I had no idea. I thought all the US Air Force was one thing, and here it turns out there are a bunch of them. Even the Coast Guard has their own helicopters and airplanes.
Cheers,
Puddin'
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Yes....
Calling it a "Landing" on the carrier is like saying "a good landing is one you walk away from". A better description of what happens on the aircraft carrier is a "controlled crash" that if anything goes wrong turns into an uncontrolled crash. (I have 150 arrested landings on a Carrier...) I've seen things go wrong.
It's not just the Hook that makes the Navy & Air Force planes different. In addition to the hook, a LOT of other structural changes are made so that when the hook catches the cable (it's many strands of steel twisted together like a rope) the hook isn't left behind while the jet keeps on going.
This structural hardening makes the plane heavier, and as a result slower. This was most obvious back in the Vietnam era, where the Navy & Air Force both used the F-4 Phantom Jets. The Air Force variety was lighter and as a result faster than it's Navy sibling.
BTW - the ARMY and Marine Corps even have planes. Everybody has planes. It's only in the Air Force that the pilots "run" the organization.
Annette
So, does this mean...
...that Air Force pilots are lighter on their feet than Navy flyers?
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Strengthening
...not to mention the strengthening needed for the other end of the process...
...using something not entirely dissimilar to a hook, which is linked to the nosewheel of the plane. This hook is connected to a steam piston which flings the plane off the front of the deck, hopefully going fast enough that it doesn't fall out of the sky or get run over by the big ship coming up behind it.
This means that the nosewheel and strut have to take the entire weight of the plane as it gets catapulted. In turn, the whole assembly has to stay attached to the plane (you might need it when you land), and so on, you get the idea.
Add on to that the fact that most carrier planes have wings that fold up in order to cram them into the hanger when not in use. You don't want one of those joints to come undone when launching or landing...
Designing naval planes is not a trivial process.
Penny
*blinks*
The vast majority of the officers (& enlisted) personnel I interacted with, in the '80s in a professional setting were highly professional.
That said, it depends - a LOT on whether you're talking about a 2nd LT or a 1st LT. The 2nd LT (with his butter bars), like the Navy Ensign, has little practical experience (unless he/she is a mustang - promoted from the Enlisted ranks).
How they act off duty varies, I'm sure. Just like how civilians act varies - they're people, after all.
A lot of what people "perceive" as "professional" attitude is the "spit and polish" of "parade ground" soldiers. True professionals (that do the work) can achieve the same level of apparent "grooming" when needed, but what you see on the parade field has almost no bearing on what goes on out in the field.
Having talked with a few soldiers (over the years) - including a few Brits, one difference at the most junior level is that the average Brit has had more practical training than his/her American counterpart. Another difference is that they have a longer tradition of maintaining the "spit and polish" in the field. But, in no way does this make them more (or less) professional.
As to your comment about an officer manning a machine gun, when one of his soldiers got tasked elsewhere... You've GOT to be kidding. Not that he couldn't do so. In actual combat, were the machine gunner killed, I'd expect the LT to do what he had to, including feed the MG. But, I can't see the platoon Sergent EVER letting the LT do something like that... And, after boot camp, it'd not even occur to the gunner to even ask.
Ann (Former LT, USN)
Maybe Katia won't be published?
Owing to my opinions about various matters associated with the present wars, perhaps I should not publish my story. I have been thinking of having my own site for a while, and if I did there would be no votes or comments.
This was to be a Fictional Fantasy story with both dark and funny moments, but somehow I have managed to offend those who also served.
I have worked so hard on it for many months and done hundreds of hours of research.
G
Publish It
RAMI
Publish your story. Just give proper warnings and a good summary, so that those who have questions or doubts won't read it. Perhaps just make it fictional fantasy not to piss off to many people.
RAMI
Maybe...
If you've been working on it for months and applied hundreds of hours of research, don't abandon it!
Publish anyway, but put a disclaimer at top (and possibly at the bottom as well!) reminding everyone that it is fiction, it doesn't necessarily reflect soldiers in real life, and you don't intend to criticise real life soldiers. Bear in mind some people got the wrong end of the stick with your original post. Perhaps post a brief character profile beforehand, so people can get a flavour of the environment (and perhaps demonstrate that your protagonist isn't a lone angel in amongst a bunch of trigger-happy animals)
As a potential halfway house to a private site, try posting it on Stardust - it uses a very similar software setup to here, but is significantly quieter, so your story is less likely to trigger a vigorous debate or (heaven forbid) a flame war.
As the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only left-handers are in their right mind!
Catch 22
Joseph Heller did fairly well by Catch-22, which has been honoured as one of the major novels of the 20th Century.
M.A.S.H didn't do too badly either.
No work of any merit pleases everyone, and is likely to offend someone, somewhere, if it says anything at all to distinguish itself from sawdust.
Cheers,
Puddin'
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
I have only one thing to say, Gwen.
This is YOUR story you are writing. It comes from YOUR mind and you should tell it the way it comes to YOU. NO one else has the right to tell you how to write YOUR story. Knowing you it will be an interesting and engaging tale and I look forward to reading it.
Go for it GIRL!
Hugs and love,
Cathy
As a T-woman, I do have a Y chromosome... it's just in cursive, pink script.
Old soldiers never....
Gwen if I can help let me know. I did serve in the Royal Artillery for a couple of years. And I was even a 2nd Lieutenant, and eventually a full one, in that august regiment. (oddly enough although Lieutenant is pronounced as discussed, above when one shortens it to 2nd Louie then it is pronounced as spelt.)
It was all a long time ago of course and whilst in those days we rarely stood on little mounds pointing vaguely towards the enemy with a sword together with the general exhortation to fire in the indicated direction, the memory of the procedure still lingered. Indeed it always seemed the gentlemanly thing to do.
It has all changed now of course. All computers and radar no doubt. Must take all the fun out of it.
Anyway if there is anything that may not have changed which would be relevant let me know.
Yours,
Fleurie
Gasp, you've popped me bubble Fleury!
I have just a tiny flash of memory from 50 or so years ago. I have no idea if if was a movie about the "French Foreign Legion", or if it was some British movie about the wars in India. However, I distinctly remember actors, now long dead, saying "Leftenant" and when I started writing this story, I felt quite romantic about it.
This tale has taken on a life of its own, and I am getting quite tense about it. It has come down with a severe case of "scope creep", and I scarcely know what to do about it; thought it was finished at about 20 pages and since I went back to fix a few little things, gasp, it has taken on a life of its own and grown to 35 pages, and I fear it will be 50.
In fact it is so large now that I've had to not load several things so I don't get "C++ error complaints, what ever those are; quite troublesome, the little buggers.
I would dearly love to give you a preview, but must admit that I am quite fearful of your criticisim. I must admit that I started writing for fun; to work off emotional energy, and now I inexplicably find myself to actually do a credible job of it! What has happened to me?
Much Peace
Khadijah Gwen
>> I distinctly remember actors... saying "Leftenant""
And indeed they did, but still spelt it Lieutenant, just as they spelt the word "Schedule" with a "Sch" and pronounced it "shedule." Spelling is just a code, and different countries use different codes.
In California, we all know how to pronounce "La Jolla*," and it doesn't sound anything like "jolly." Spanish names are as common as dirt here, so we recognise them (if native), and don't usually get them wrong. If we hear someone say, "La Johla," or "San Josie" for "San Jose," or "Valley Joe" for "Vallejo," we know they're either tourists or are making fun of them.
Cheers,
Puddin'
* It's actually pronounced "La Hoya," which makes perfect sense to me. The others are "San Hosay" and "Valyayho" or "Valayho" respectively, depending upon how punctilious one is. There's a difference of opinion between Mexican Spanish and the variously pronounced Spanishes from South America and Spain proper. Some take one side or another.
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
>> "C++ error complaints
Sounds like you need more memory, or have a need to break it up into shorter sections to avoid crashing whatever you're using as an editor some time in the future. Keep backups. Lots of them.
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
C++ Errors
Beth gave me some advice, which I took. I was in the habit of running two windows, and three messingers, and my word document. After I got to about 35 pages I started having problems. Well, the story is now in three chapters, and I am running fewer web resources.
This is a bit disappointing as this machine has 6 gigs of memory, and a 2 core quad processor. Not being an expert, I wonder if windows is just not capable of doing big stuff?
I coulda bought an Apple.
K
Loo as in toilet
Gwen,
As Puddintane so sagely remarks spelling is just a code. Whilst you may think it is flying in the face of common sense to pronounce lieu as left, nobody seems to have considered that pronouncing it as loo is equally bizarre, but such appears to be common practice in the US Army. Or so my experience of watching American films indicates. At the back of my mind there is also the alternative pronunciation of loyt'nant used in such films but maybe I am just becoming confused.
I am delighted that you are writing just for fun. That is the only conceivable justification for an amateur. Not only is it a justification though, it is in equal measure a freedom; a freedom to write what you will. Some boundaries remain of course, some legal and others generally laid down in the place where one posts. But much leeway remains and one is not bound to avoid irritating, or indeed offending people, on matters of viewpoint.
In fact to do so moderately combines a public duty with a certain degree of pleasure.
I would gladly preview your work as regards vetting it for accuracy as to British Army procedures and attitudes etc. as far as my experience runs. You will have no cause to fear criticism in any other respect as I won't give it. I am not a critic and I certainly don't believe in interfering in the way that others write. I am not qualified to do so and anyway believe that we should all find our own voice.
Hugs,
loyt'nant
That would be the German Army, where a Leutnant is the equivalent of a US Second Lieutenant, and an Oberleutnant is the equivalent of a US First Lieutenant.
Cheers,
Puddin'
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Don't mention the War .....
Of course it is! I knew that it must be that as soon as I had it posted. It just niggled away at the back of my mind.
By the way does the US army still refer to both 1st and 2nd as subalterns as in the British Army?
Subaltern
I have no idea. As an adjective, the word should be available to describe almost anyone, but thinking back on all the films I've seen over the years, the only scenes in which I've heard the word spoken in a military context all seem to feature British accents. I dated a sailor once, but that was the closest I ever got to military life.
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style