Comments and complaints about audience ratings and categories should be made privately to the author or to one of the admin/moderator/editors here. They shouldn't be attached to the story as open comments.
Why? Because if you have a complaint about labeling either you just want greater accuracy or you are disappointed in that you read what you think of as a mislabeled story. In both cases, private discussions will serve everyone better by avoiding essentially negative comments to disrupt the enjoyment of future readers who will be forewarned by better labeling. If you're not part of the intended audience for the story, then those who are will enjoy the story better without your comments.
Think about it objectively for five minutes before you write something to me about the above paragraph. :)
All of the stories here are or would be on SOMEONE's "I hate this kind of story" list. It's the nature of TG fiction that it is intended to break through barriers of thought, custom and belief. A story that is too raunchy for your taste, or involves ideas you find morally repugnant, or sequences that are unutterably dull--to you--may well be someone else's favorite sort of story.
The rating and categorization system here is imperfect; that's the nature of such systems--to be practical they must be imperfect in an almost direct inverse ratio.
We (meaning basically Sephy and I) will work with authors who need the help to get the best labeling for a story to attract it's chosen audience. But remember, the categories are tools for the authors, not rigid boxes with some bureaucracy controlling what they mean. The audience rating system is a little different, generally I will defer to an author on whether they think their story is M, R or A or whatever but if I think the author is wrong, I will change the audience rating and the author is free to remove the story if they object strenuously.
I'll answer questions on this topic here in this forum or privately.
And yes, a recent misrated story caused a lot of fiery PUBLIC comments leading to re-rating of the story and this post.
Hugs,
Erin
Been burned, and avoiding the heat
Erin,
re mis-rated and mis-categorized stories:
Hence the reason I no longer comment on stories I do read and no loger read stories from those I don't know. It is easier to avoid those situations than it is to comment and get out of them. Though I may miss out on a great number of enjoyable stories, neither am I disappointed either. For some reason, the comments I do make always strike someone wrong, even if agreeing, thus my no comment rule on stories (I do make exceptions for PMs to friends). As for the authoring of any more stories, I write for a few friends and myself and no longer to share them publicly; easier on me than the nitpickers starting in or the trolls trying to start something. Take care and hugs hon, you do a truly outsanding and wonderful job, and for that I thank you,
Diana
come on people
Is it really neccesary to have your hand held to read a story here? Don't we all have pretty good idea how a Vickie Tern story is likely to go? They will be well written and have stuff that many will find their stomachs twisting on. Is it a need to proclaim your aversion to the amorality publicly just so everyone knows you don't think like that? Pretty sure I read this one a while back and as usual shook my head at the aquiescence more than anything. She writes well and tweaks the emotions, part of the deal. If it aint your thing, don't.
The ratings are a guide and I'm pretty sure anyone that's written a story here or elsewhere will have managed to offend someone sometime. Quite sure I have at times yet mine are mostly pretty gentle on the whole. I try not to deliberatley offend but it will happen. A tightrope walk for any would be scribbler or author if ya's feelin' grande.
Do some not read me because it's me? Bad language now and again, some questionable decisions, the odd pinch of kink? Probably, I'm such a snotty opinionated cow, well some likely think so. So it goes, we do what we do and hope some like it and perhaps pray that the odd comment will come our way. Critique is good and welcome but don't say it's horrible and shouldn't be here unless you can explain why. Interesting little corrollary at FM right now, haven't read the story and won't. Should it be there? Not my call but it does seem to fit the wide criteria.
It's entirely possible every word I write pisses someone off, should I shut up and go away? Some might cheer, some boo, but most will say no... that's why this place is here. Long may it be so.
Kristina
I agree with you...
...it's almost like you hit the wrong button on the remote and end up with something that just doesn't suit you..it might even be offensive...just change the channel. And I don't thing you are snotty at all. You've been very fair in your comments with me and kind as well. I enjoy reading your comments because you are honest and identify what you liked, and are fair and constructive when you identify what you didn't care for. I love this place!
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Possa Dio riccamente vi benedica, tutto il mio amore, Andrea
Love, Andrea Lena
In fact
I loved stories Vickie has wrote. And I did say so, while also explaining why some of the characters were averse to me, in my comment to one of her stories - Flowers. I do try to explain why I did or did not like certain elements of the story. And I do believe it is possible to have conflicting feelings about one.
I simply don't need to make everyone else feel miserable when I feel conflicted. Besides, I do agree that people like them. I should know, I am one of them.
Faraway
Big Closet Top Shelf
Where you can fool around like you want to and most you get is some bemused good ribbing!
Faraway
Big Closet Top Shelf
Where you can fool around like you want to and most you get is some bemused good ribbing!
I used to enjoy reaching out ...
... and commenting on the stories here and how they made me feel. To me, it was a way to grow closer to the community, to find others who felt as I did. After all, the stories are why we're here, aren't they? And the more powerful they are, the more I wanted to share what they brought out in me, whatever those feelings might be.
I realize now that, unless the thoughts and feelings are positive, the comments are unwelcome. I think I always knew that, but I do need reminding once in a while. I keep forgetting the community has standards for discourse, and I keep stepping over that line when strong emotions make me want to share how I feel. That's not always a good thing in the Big Closet, and I'll do my best to keep my responses either upbeat, or nonexistent.
Thanks for the reminder.
Randalynn
I once told you...
... that I disagreed with a story you did, while preferring it to the inspiration. Should I not have? Were you mortally offended? No on both counts I think. Passion is good and you have plenty and you write good too. so tell me one a mine is crap and we'll be even huh..grin. Bet you could do it and make me smile. Trouble is we's all such self centred little things when someone don't come around much no more we think it's our fault. I miss your comments and not just for my own sake or you could just write another spacecowboys thing, I'm easy.
Kristina
And that's not what I said at all
If I say that a certain sort of complaint is out of bounds then someone says well then only positive comments are allowed. They are not the same thing at all. They are as different as "don't eat meat" and "eat only pineapple." No one can live on nothing but pineapple and it gives me a rash.
And here, I didn't even say that some sort of complaint was not allowed; I said do that sort of complaint privately. If you announce on a street corner that Joe Plushbottom's dog smells like a skunk that's been dead for three days, Joe is going to have his feelings hurt. What would you expect? But if you leave him a private note and a bottle of canine shampoo, he may wash the dog.
Constructive criticism isn't really that hard. First, find something good to say about the piece. Then deliver a few critical comments in a respectful way. Then close with another positive comment. If there are't two positive things to say about a piece, why waste time commenting at all? The piece must be irredeemable. If the author isn't worth respecting, again why comment at all?
Simply venting negative emotion in a forum directly attached to someone else's work is just rude. It's like putting post-it notes complaining about papa's smoking habits on the kid in kindergarten. No one is going to read those notes and think they are worth acting on. The best thing that could happen is that someone removed those post-its before anyone saw them.
That's my job.
Note what I actually said here, "Simply venting negative emotion...." That's not the same thing as making a negative comment.
I don't remove a comment simply because it is negative unless an author requests the removal. Period. Saying that I have said only positive comments are allowed is just not true.
Hugs to all,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
I think the problem is..
A reader reads a story online and it moves them in whatever way emotionally. The feelings are so strong that they comment in the moment and post emotionally based on how the story affected them. So there is no detachment or cooling off period. Some people read and identify with a character or characters actions and internalize them.
This affects me less, because I print stories out, and when I comment it is usually many hours later or the next day. Also I'm a man, and have no emotions LOL
Hugs
I'm sorry, Erin ...
... but even when I try to parse the distinction, I fail too often and wind up crossing that line again. This time, I honestly didn't think I was saying anything people didn't already know. If those story elements that affected me negatively are what someone enjoys in a story, my comment isn't going to change that for them. After all, if I told a hockey fan that I hated the game, I don't think they'd stop going out of concern for my feelings. *grin* I also acknowledged that I probably shouldn't read her work because, as Kristina and others pointed out earlier in this thread, I should already know what to expect, so why go there?
I know it's hard to pour out my thoughts into a comment (especially when I take the time to write it as well as I can), only to find it gone almost as soon as I post it. So I will be more careful in the future as to when and how I comment -- otherwise I won't be learning from my mistakes, right?
Kristina, I think your work is always terrific, so don't be looking for any negative criticism from me. *grin* If I do have something to say that might be helpful, I'll PM you. And I'm halfway through the next piece of the Firefly fan fiction, and enjoying every minute, so more space cowboy stuff is on the way.
Randalynn
Civility
Think of it not as the comments must be positive, but that they must be civil.
Self-censorship is the best or in other words ...
... BEHAVE! or as a certain fictional British secret agent might put it, "Oh behave!"
I have said this before multiple times here at BC and others have said it before. Please remember the majority of communication is done without words. Facial expression, body language, posture, how close or far apart you are, inflection and tone, even the spacing of breaks in speech all affect the meaning.
Think of a simple phrase like, "That was nice." Depending on how it is said it can be a complement, a neutral *place holder* or filler in a conversation, a question, sardonic, sarcastic or even insulting.
But on-line we have nothing but words, save for emoticons and the like, a pale imitation of the richness of face-to-face communication. Plus words, unless recorded fade quickly in the mind but text on the *net* is all but immortal.
So by all means say your mind but *make sure your brain is fully engaged before putting mouth in gear* as the poster in the music department said way back in Longfellow Junior High. IE think before you send. Being critical of a work and backing that up by explaining *why* helps the writer but it needs to be done carefully. As so many here are *damaged souls* in one way or another it is easy to hurt people's feelings badly without much effort. And despite the generous contributions to the Hatbox, this is legally Erin's site and her migraine-inducing responsibility. Try and be nice to her . And wasn't she some kind of spy/code breaker/intelligence employee at one time? Would you want to piss off *Jane Bond*?
Or follow the words of the great philosophers, Bill and Ted, "Be excellent to each other and ... party-on dudes!"
John in Wauwatosa
P.S. Randalynn, another Firefly is well on the way? Yaaaaaah!
P.P.S. Any Stark or other delights of yours? I actually have a chunk of Timeout in proof and Itinerant has only suffered mild seizers so far in reviewing it.
John in Wauwatosa
My dear sweet sister...
...ever feel like this?
Thank you for everything you do here!
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Possa Dio riccamente vi benedica, tutto il mio amore, Andrea
Love, Andrea Lena
Oh, sure, Drea... taunt me
One of my ways to relax and clear my head (one of my 'zen' as some have put it) is to juggle... it calms me.
But I cannoy do so for awhile. *sigh*
Fear of commenting.
I'm not a big fan of hiding negative comments (if written well, i.e. not a slobbering rant as seen on most other sites.) One of the reasons I like the comments section of any site is to make a decision on whether or not to read a specific story. So if I click on the comments and find nothing but good, I expect the story to be fairly well crafted. That isn't the case here.
I can see the reasoning behind sending technical problems (spelling, grammar, etc.) Seeing these comments isn't really helpful since I have yet to ever find a story that is perfectly Beta'ed. But comments about incorrect categories, or ratings errors would be helpful to know. I'd seriously hate to click on a story rated pg-15 (or whatever it is) and find out that there is heavy sex, or some of the serious fetishes involved along the way. It would throw me. Just because someone is popular throughout the community is not reason enough to assume that she is known by everybody. So, that is not a reasonable excuse to subject a newbie to reading something that he or she would find seriously offensive, without warning.
We know that Erin and Sephrena cannot be here 24/7; it just isn't reasonable, they have a life outside of this site. So we cannot expect them to correct or investigate possible errors in a quick fashion. (unless we can... am I wrong about this?)
This doesn't excuse being rude. Something simple like "Needs Extreme Content tag." isn't confrontational. Going off on a rant about the insensitivity of the author for purposefully leaving it out to spite you, is rude. I don't know how many times I've "skipped" over a tag because I was reading too fast or just plain didn't see it. It doesn't mean that I'm trying to shock you, it means that I went to click on it and accidentally clicked on the one below it or skipped over it unknowingly. You have to make allowances for honest mistakes.
In the end, it winds up making some people out there not want to write "any" comment for fear of being singled out as confrontational, hateful, or whatever. So they stop commenting altogether. I encourage all comments made to my stories that are thought out and not pulled out of someone's butt (figuratively speaking). I assumed that was the reason Erin and/or Sepherna always re-post the "Think Before You Comment" banner every so often, to remind us not to be a tool when we make less than pleasant comments.
I don't know how many comments I've received in PM's that start off, "I didn't want to post this in the comments, but..."
It just feels wrong to me. You shouldn't have to fear being ostracized from the community for making an honest comment. You "should" feel that it is incumbent upon you to make an "intelligent" comment. I've received PM's that come across as people that are scared to say anything for fear that I will think badly of them for being honest. Sometimes I am flabbergasted as to how much they have to write to let me know that they aren't trying to offend me, but to let me know that I have a homonym malfunction.
But it comes down to things like this to force people to behave in a fashion that they should have learned when they were in middle school. Disappointing, very disappointing.
Suggestion: Would it be much trouble to enable a "Delete Comment" or a "Report Rude Comment for Review" function for their stories. Author's could police their own comments for themselves.
~Lili
Blog: http://lilithlangtree.tglibrary.com/
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/lilith_langtree
~Lili
Write the story that you most desperately want to read.
Why say do it in private
Most complaints about ratings or categories are phrased as attacks on either the story or the author. Such as: "This story is horrible, it shouldn't even be here. Since it is posted it should be properly rated X with a CAUTION and the disgusting author should be flogged for what she did to those poor wallabies!"
The above is not exaggerated except for using the word wallabies.
Since there are already caveats that people should be civil in comments and this type of comment is generally not civil, it seems wise to make the rule that this type of comment should not be posted publicly. Plus which, if the situation is fixed then the rude, crude, insulting and derogatory comment stands out twice as much.
A comment that includes a polite, "It would be nice if the rating were increased from M to A," among other constructive criticisms is not going to be removed for violating this suggestion.
As for people being afraid to comment, I seriously do not see that as being due to my policies. Some people are just timid. A few may be inhibited by fearing that they will not be in control of an emotional response while typing a comment. Not much I can do about that.
I can't allow just any comment, there have to be lines where I react by removing comments and writing posts such as this one. As it is, we lose about one author a month to rude, insensitive comments and every time I end up considering whether it is worth it to have comments at all. On average, I remove or unpub about 1 comment a day, though they tend to come in groups. About once a month, Sephrena and I decide to edit a comment rather than unpub it because of one offending line, we always include a "redacted by" note in such edited comments.
As for putting a Delete Comment button for authors to use on their own stories, Drupal does not include such a facility. There is a report comment for review button available but it has it's own problems. I may end up using it though but it also will not work just for an authors own stories, all authors would have access to the button for all comments.
Hugs to all,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Agreed
I agree. Like I said before, negative comments should be intelligent comments and not attacks on the authors. (or something to that effect) If given the choice between accepting the unacceptable or enforcing a slightly stronger policy I choose the latter. I'm just disappointed that it comes to this. You'd think that adults that suffer from living a life that we do would have more tact. We have enough problems dealing with the intolerance of "mainstream" thinking; sniping from within only weakens us.
~Lili
Blog: http://lilithlangtree.tglibrary.com/
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/lilith_langtree
~Lili
Write the story that you most desperately want to read.
Erin, I Agree "Hole" Heartedly
Of course what you suggest is absolutely the right approach. PMs for certain things. Trash bin for others.
I caution . . . BC exists and flourishes as a place where we all understand that censorship is a slippery slope. That extends to the censorship of blogs and comments as well. When something is hurtful I'm glad to see it taken down. Yet, it saddens me.
As you say, one person's cup of tea may well be another's bitters. You (a person) have to walk a narrow line, and I hope you never lose your moral compass in regard to allowing exchange as much as possible without it becoming chaotic.
I once brought an action in a federal court. After my attorney eloquently presented my case, listing abuse after abuse that had been heaped upon me by an elected official, the judge looked down on us and said, "So what?" That was my introduction to the politics of our court system. It served a greater lesson that I've taken to heart. Even though it seemed out-of-place at the time, sometimes a blatant "So what?" is not only a great summation of reality, but a wonderful life directive.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Ow!
"So what" can really hurt, but I get from your post that the judge was saying to you that while your feelings may have been quite hurt by that nasty official that his actions were not, for want of a better word, actionable. That's life.
And here on BC, we should all remember what Erin and others have said in respect to civility. Whether it's actionable or not, we can make this site a little better than the outer world. Constructive criticism is always appropriate, rants...not particularly.
SuZie
SuZie
>> The rating and categorization system here is imperfect;
Erin is far too modest. The rating system is as perfect as the authors want to make it, because they are not limited to the dozens on offer, but can create their own at will, allowing essentially infinite specificity and exactitude of taxonomy.
You want a category of story involving the transgender adventures of the Old Norse Gods and Goddesses? Feel free to add it as a Keyword. There are quite a few of these stories already available — Loki and Thor both dabbled in womanhood, for example, and Loki became pregnant and is a mother, so he took his own adventure to an extreme — and many more waiting to be imagined. Most of these adventures seem to have occurred whilst visiting the Giants, so your story category could be be Jotunheim, or Jötunheimr, if you wanted to ensure linguistic accuracy.
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Where's the "Tissues" Rating
Based on some of the comments I've seen, we could use a rating for the number of boxes of tissues that will be needed to finish the story.
Michelle B
I....I'm ...sorry
....rrrreallly...snffff....sssso sorrry
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Possa Dio riccamente vi benedica, tutto il mio amore, Andrea
Love, Andrea Lena
There should be a little tissue box
icon with one forlorn tissue poking out the top. Then rate the tissue quotient as 0-5 boxes. Very eye catching and hard to miss.
Of course, I'm a hard-hearted sort who uses tissues for blowing my nose and little else. So what if my sleeve or the back of my hand get a little bit soggy once in a while?
SuZie
SuZie
>> Tissues rating
Exactly!
There are an infinite number of issues that at least some people will be offended and/or concerned about. Adding flags as keywords enables those authors who are concerned about making some readers unhappy can add them, or not, as they wish. The "General - Mature - Adult" spectrum has little to offer, since the system is entirely subjective. Every system is ultimately subjective, but it's easier to categorise one's own work as involving "teenage romance" or "murder and/or assault with grievous harm" than it is to decide whether such stories are suitable for all ages, or only some.
A tissues rating is ideally objective, because an author who weeps when writing a passage is an excellent judge of how it will affect many others. If one cannot feel the emotions one describes in writing, one might as well not write them in the first place.
Cheers,
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style