I tend to like stories that have some sort of transformation in them. Seeing how people cope and adapt in unusual or changing situations is very interesting.
One thing that bothers me about this sort of story is that usually the changed character comes to terms with their changes. This is a wonderful thing, but it leaves me with a problem... I couldn't do it.
I tried for over half a century to cope with and adapt to living in a body and role that just did not fit. I struggled, dissembled, argued with God, lied to myself and others, all to no avail.
So, if the premise of these stories, that it is possible to adapt and be comfortable in a 'wrong' role, then it is possible to adapt and be comfortable with the way we are born?
My experience and those of so many of my friends indicates that real adaptation and acceptance is really not possible over a long term. At some point something has to give.
Take for example, the character of Jerome in O2bxx's "For a Girl." http://www.fmstories.com/stories/scifi/foragirl.txt
This person is changed against their will and never really adjusts or accepts the changes, no matter how long and hard they tried.
It makes me wonder about the whole transformation genre. As much as I love it, is it promoting some sort of lie?
Now, one could say that the transformation allows the person to adapt, but does that not change the character in a fundamental way? They really aren't the same person if that happens, are they?
I hope that this invites discussion of the involuntary transformation genre. Not sure if there is an answer, but the comments ought to be interesting.
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil Blonde Proofreaders
Comments
Gender flow charts
The thing I've always taken as a given for most stories where the hero 'adapts' to their role is the presence of a gender bell curve, with absolute male/female at the ends and a more gender neutral occupying the majority of society. Most TS's are at the edges of the curve, while those along the center can 'adapt' either way equally well. These mid-curve individuals are usually the hero/ines of 'adaptation' stories, while an individual with a strong gender alignment would find such changes difficult to take
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Another View
I have found the "forced feminization" or "adaptation" type of story to be a statement of the transgender condition in general. To state this simply, the protagonist is of one sex(at least mentally) that through plot devices winds up with the physical body of the other sex. The protagonist winds up a "transgender" and the general societal reaction to this situation is to "tell" the protagonist to "adapt."
I have found this type of plotline to be similar in manner to the general condition of transgenders. Society "telling" transgenders to "adapt" to the body they are "born" with. Advice, of which, of course, many transgenders reject for their own personal reasons.
Yet, in these stories, the apparent overall "message" is that the protagonist resolves his/her inner conflict by adapting and learning to accept his/her life. Which is a "message" that seems to contradict the general transgender condition. A final interesting point is that this "message" is being "endorsed" by what is for the most part transgender authors themselves.
tricky area
I wrote a 'forced' story and a follow up to try and play with the idea of doing what I choose(?) to do but not having the choice. Once there with little or no chance to return, do you try and adapt or bow out with that ultimate, er choice? It's all a question of circumstance and personal reality I think. Could I have been him rather than me if...? Well yes, I suppose, but how much would I be hiding, holding back, cutting off from? If this or that had or had not, and science and medicine not made it a viable option, well who knows.
There are no absolutes and we here I think state that in a multitude of ways. My most recent story had a main character that a commentator stated was outside her idea of 'trans femininity'. She was not very girly and yet was a woman, slightly outside the 'trans girls are the only real women left' idea. I guess as in the forced story I just tried to say, it always depends, everything always does.
Kristina
Oh I know!
Jeez stories like that annoy me to no end, it seems counterproductive for transgendered individuals, and even more sick like that story they are doing, is the "girl school". I don't think I know any girls, not even myself that do stuff like described in these stories. Most women wear jeans every day, jeez even my mother never wears skirts or dresses, she loves jeans and pants and will never leave them. She felt HORRIBLE in dresses and skirts, but she still loves being a woman, just because someone likes dresses or skirts doesn't make them a girl, and a girl is not required to be feminine a girl is just supposed to be who she is. What kind of girl am I? I'm a hardcore gamer girl, girly girl, prissy girl, that's kind and loves to help others ... and I write horror stories ^^ See? There's no definition for girl, or boy really, it's just who we are inside and just being the kind of boy, girl, both, neither or other that we identify with, that we really are ^^
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
Hmmm.
It looks like I shouldn't have jumped the gun for the most part this version of girl school isn't so bad, they let them know they can be whoever they want, except for being FtM, and that's not right. Ask any FtM there was no way to make them girls, not periods, not pregnancy not anything. They knew they're boys and screw anyone who doesn't agree. Some FtMs I know are very violent towards those who call them girls, I'm not saying violence is a good thing, but still it gives you an idea of how they feel. For all of us going through the transsexual experience or even transgender crossdressing, ect. Have a talk with someone on the other side of the fence, it might broaden your mind a bit, it did mine ^^ Though I still don't understand boys xD
I know who I am, I am me, and I like me ^^
Transgender, Gamer, Little, Princess, Therian and proud :D
What is a girl?
I know women who never seem to wear skirts. One woman I know wears pants but always wears a top that comes to mid thigh as in the Indian or Muslim tradition. I also know a few women who wear only skirts, unless circumstances dictate pants. The fact that I wear only skirts is probably a reaction to years of not being able to do that. Over time, I have begun to wear pants if I really need to for practicality, and that decision point is way off center. Most of the time, I feel forced and a little pissed when I have to put on my one pair of Jeans.
I am not sure there is a typical woman. In the Neo-techno-hippy culture I live in, there is a lot of androgeny, so it is easy to slide up and down the scale. So, it has been an easy, relaxed and supportive atmosphere I've live in where I can find my center. For me true happiness is skirts! :)
As for me, the battle was too bitterly fought; the losses too great; the grief too sharp. May I never own more than one pair of pants, and may they smell moldy when I do pull them out of the very bottom of the bottom drawer of my dresser. Viva La Skirts ! ! ! ! :)
Gwen
It's FICTION
It has to be!
There has been no adapting for me. Just trying to survive.
Hugs, Fran
Hugs, Fran
Control
The key element is the protagonist having to deal with things beyond his/her control, and in some stories trying to take back control of what s/he can. This can be used as a metaphor for life in general, but sometimes it's just for fun. Real force is horrible, but pretend force can be exciting. It's similar to how many couples with healthy sex lives occasionally role-play rape scenarios.
The reason why these characters usually tend to have an easier time adjusting than real-life transsexuals is that the more extreme forced transformation stories tend to include some element of brainwashing or behavior conditioning, and that would be dangerous and illegal to do to an actual person. The human mind can be forced to accept a new reality, but it's not the sort of thing most people would want to do voluntarily. But consider those conservative homosexuals who claim to be cured. They've reprogrammed their brains to deny their inner selves, so it's probably feasible to do something similar to a transgendered person.
The story Janet mentions is a good example
In the story, For a Girl, it is explained to the boys forced to be girls by some nanite serum some twisted group is slipping to random individuals, that the largest fraction of the transformed will end up fairly happy in their lives as women and attracted to both males and females.
A smaller fraction will become heterosexual girls and revel in their womanhood.
An unfortunate remainder will never be happy as women, possibly not even as lesbians as they so miss being men, and thus will be as if they were born TG.
It’s been a while since I read it but this should be close to the story. The story had examples of all three basic groups of the new women and is a fine read.
Pontifcation time.
How one reacts is situational and combines many factors. In TG science fiction you have the mechanism by which they were transformed and it may or may not alter the individual's mind. Are they a different person if the nanites, virus, transmogrification machine turns a hetero man into a hetero girl but otherwise with the same memories and personality? Hard to say. They are different and the same.
Another way to put it, and I apologues if I am way off base here, but it might be fair to say real life TG are equivalent to those in the forced change stories who can’t adapt or adapt by refusing to adapt. Huh?
I mean by that, if in your heart/mind/desires you are male but are in a female body, then you assume the male role in any sexual relationship, most likely a lesbian one to theoutside observer. I suspect from what others say and I’ve read that sexuality is a continuum and few if any are all one or the other. Some people may not be their prefered sex but are sufficiently both male and female in their soul that they subconciously adapt and lead reasonably happy lives as their biological sex. Some are mostly their biological sex in their soul and have an easy time of it comparatively while an unfortunate group are so at odds with their biological sex they cannot reach a satisfactory compromise and suffer or struggle to become the sex their mind needs to be. These people would be your classic TG.
As I said ealier I may be way off base here. If I am, I did not mean to offend.
A last thought on forced transformation lit. Sometimes the sex change is simply a device to add conflict, the heart of the story is how the central character acts in response to some great stress. Being sex changed unwillingly could be replaced by being stranded alone on a tropical island or being drafted into a war or any number of other extremely stressful situations that are beyond the persons control. The story is in essence a fish-out-of-water experience and the reader watches as they struggle to make sense of this strange new situation.
John in Wauwatosa
John in Wauwatosa
I used to enjoy reading them
I used to enjoy reading them but they always fell down on the protagonists' motivations; to my mind without a predisposition - or something equally compelling - someone would always fight what was being done to them. Most seemed to share the same plot too :)
I had a go at writing my own - Scordatura - to try and address some of these points, but I wasn't entirely happy with it - it was very dark, and a bit too melodramatic. I mean to rewrite it at some point, but it's at the back of the queue.
Transformation stories
... are not all ducks from the same flock.
Some are simply wish fulfillment; "See, though I have made an adjustment to live as a man, if someone made me live as a girl I could be happy and it wouldn't be my fault." Being Christina Chase by Admiral Crunch
Some are fish out of water stories, as someone else noted: "People adapt, some people can adapt to anything and be happy. It's tough to adapt to being the wrong sex but it can be done." This also includes the changing sex is the greatest adventure type stories. For a Girl by O2bxx and the Marcie Donner stories by Kaleigh Way. Tuck by Ellen Hayes.
Another group, overlapping some others is: "Everyone is a little bit of everything, many men could discover their feminine sides if given the opportunity to do it without guilt." Can't think of an unequivocal example but there are lots of partial ones like "Eerie Saloon" by Ellie Dauber and Christopher Leeson.
Another subset is: "Putting things right that once went wrong." Blue Moon by Donna Lamb
But a good story is a good story is a good story. Tautology squared. :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Gender
I'm not a fan of forced anything! It's too much like school. That's not meant as a funny. As children, we do not have a choice, our parents decide. I was enrolled in a Baptist Church even before I knew what a baptist was!
That's like our sex; we didn't get a choice, and we are forced to live with it, adapting as best as we can. I believe that our gender is like a rectangle with a line drawn from lower left to the upper right, the left being male, the right female. In the middle, most of the readers here would most likely fit, some may go more towards their opposite side.
Then, there are those who fluctuate, who can't seem to fit, going from male, hating themselves because they can't fit (not a real Man) to female (hating themselves because of a perceived weakness).
(Whoops, a little more than I wanted.)
Okay, I've adapted to a situation, and it seems to me that most can adapt or accept. In fiction, it's the writer's duty to try to understand the person involved -- their resistance, motives for resisting, pressure applied to conform, etc.
Now, I like the girl's school stories, provided the male does have a choice at the end as to his sexual orientation.
Annie in PA
Annie in PA
I knew very early
Very briefly, I knew I wanted to be like my sister when I was 5. When I remembered this, I was in my 50's and the therapist suggested that I wanted to be like my sister because girls got a better deal of it. Boy, he sure did not understand the life of a woman!
Like many, my parent's reaction to my desire was brutal beatings, scolding, mocking and rejection. It was then that I discovered the power of forced conditioning or brain washing. I was a girl in a boy's body but brainwashed to be a boy!
My "MS Frankenstein" and "Desert Princess" both have the brain washing element in them. Both of them were written during the time when I was trying to fight my way clear of that forced conditioning. I have the final chapters of both almost ready to post and readers will see much changed protagonists; ones who have emerged into a world of happiness!
Gwen
I've always taken it as a very simple and basic...
It's better to be a girl. So even if a boy is FORCED, eventually he adapts and is better for it in the end. That's why there is a category "bad boy to good girl"
Not realistic, but then it's fiction. Since it's a repeated theme in this genre, is how I came to my conclusion...
Female = Good, Male = Bad
Of course, once the main character is female, then it's GOOD that the new she finds a male to be with...which is somehow hypocritical to my way of thinking, but then that's the pattern usually.
Hugs
Alexis
Bad boy to good girl
I sometimes have a problem with those stories simply because they try to say being a girl is somehow better than being a boy. The way I have read them, in many cases the boys are not exactly the most masculine people, and as a result overcompensate by trying to be 'bad boys'. When the 'petticoat punishment' or other method of change is used, it gives them an excuse to stop posturing- but unfortunately, often results in just as much overcompensation in the opposite direction.
Melanie E.
is it right or wrong
i dont really agree with forced transition stories, but they show us that we are all changing for one reason or another, it just depends on why that change happens wheather it is forced on us or wheather we choise it. point being is we all have things that make us change for one reason or another, and as humans we must face those changes or we end up dying. some of us can deal with the changes that are forced on us others can not, and those that dont offten life a life of sorrow and misory, for a long time i lived a life of sorrow and misory, but eventualy i found my way to deal with the changes i had to make in my life, even though they were not forced on me, but the lie i was living was forced on me and i couldnt deal with it so i found a way to make the changes i needed to make, now i am living my true life the life i always knew i should be living as the woman i always knew i was
Deleted
-- Deleted --
how odd ...
... that no one seems to have posted my opinion, or anything much like it, as yet. Perhaps it's not usual?
I very much dislike forced transformation stories, but it isn't so much because I think they affirm or deny the transgender condition. I simply find most of them to have a simple idea underlying them: "It's not my fault! I didn't want this, *really*! They *made* me do it!"
Among the transgendered folks that I know (and I include myself), *guilt* for the pain and embarrassment we cause our best beloved seems never too deeply buried. I'll grant that in the last ten years or so, the gamut of "forced transformation" stories has ... vastly enlarged, but still ... the basic story, or so it seems to me, is "not my fault!"
Am I in such a minority, that no one else automatically assumes such stories are that form of psychological venting for their authors? I've never, in all the years that I've been writing stuff (nearly all of it unpublished, apart from Trust and Serial Mirage), been comfortable writing a "forced" story. "Caught", perhaps, "coming out of denial" often enough, even "oblivious" occasionally. But ... I dunno. I got "forced" for n years (where n varies from twenty to thirty-three, depending upon whether you start the timer at puberty or at birth or somewhere in between), and it didn't stick.
Hmmmm ....
Amy!
"not my fault!"
I know that some of my writing expressed this idea. I am trying to move past that into more of a willing (if not always acknowledged consciously) transition.
"Treat everyone you meet as though they had a sign on them that said "Fragile, under construction"
dorothycolleen
stories like that annoy me too
it annoys me too. I cant see how a regular guy could handle such a thing. I have read many and the author seems to assum that every guy has a secret transgendered side to him that he can bring out. Such thinking is false but i think its twisted into the female supremacists .
In my mind, the guy could never be happy, he would always be conflicted in himself and if abuse were used that the result could also be a psychopathic person.
You mean kinda . . .
Like Stark, by Randalynn. She is understandable, but scary. And truly dangerous.
KJT
"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather
"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin
For Me, There Are Two Authors That Write Good Forced Stories
Tigger has taken Joel Lawrence's Seasons House Story and penned several others in that setting. In Seasons House, the student is a boy that is on the way to prison, but Aunt Jane uses Petticoat Punishment to teach him. Tigger's two stories are where a man is turned into a woman and his dealing with his new body.
May Your Light Forever Shine
May Your Light Forever Shine
There is also the illogic...
Of a guy that let's himself be blackmailed into it...to keep pictures or whatever from being made public...so instead he let's himself be permanently feminized/hormoned/castrated...whatever so he's not embarrassed for a few days or what have you..
Off the topic?
This whole discussion has ended up being about forced fem, which was not how I read the original post. I thought tracy was talking about stories with involuntary transformations of the magic or pseudo-magic type. That's why the quotes around the word "forced".
The two kinds of stories are very different and fans of one are frequently not fans of the other.
Stories involving complete physical transformation by magic or pseudo-science seem to me to have a completely different psychological profile from the blackmail or brainwashing type story.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
The original does say...
"I hope that this invites discussion of the involuntary transformation genre. Not sure if there is an answer, but the comments ought to be interesting."
So I would think that covers any kind of involuntary change.
My point is ...
... I don't think that's what was meant and the discussion has not been making clear distinctions between the two things. It's been muddying the waters rather than clarifying things. If people want to make comments on one type, they should clearly state which type. Forced fem is not usually considered a sub-type of transformation.
I've nothing against either type, though I'm more likely to read and enjoy a transformation story than a forced fem story. It is possible to combine the two things, but it isn't very common.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Off topic?
I did use specific examples and was somewhat limited in the original scope of the discussion.
Still, I think that the discussion has been interesting and I would like to see more comments.
How often does a story or idea take on a life of its own and go in directions other than originally thought? I think that this is an example of that principle. :-)
One thought I haven't seen yet is the closeted T, who is really pleased about what is happening, but needs to object for appearance's sake.
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil Blonde Proofreaders
Janet
Mistress of the Guild of Evil [Strawberry] Blonde Proofreaders
To be or not to be... ask Schrodinger's cat.
Also
There's the point that some people are using a discussion that started out being about one kind of story to simply bash another kind of story they don't like. Complaining about something is not the same as analyzing it and real effective criticism is analytical, not autocratic.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
"Forced" Transformation Stories
`For a Girl` to me was a force story (by a unseen person' s) by medical ways, not by a uncaring (person` s). Also the person was transformed to 100% gg. This is a whole lot better for the person than being a pseudo female where the brain does not change genders. I do not beleive someone could brainwash a person to completely think that he/she was of the other gender.
Overcompensation
If forced means by something supernatural, I would tend to think the mind would also change -- else the poor guy would go whacko. If it is by normal means, i.e. forced crossdressing, it would depend on the personality of the person. I am inclined to agree that some forced-femme stories, "Bad Boy to Good Girl," do tend go a little overboard on change. Okay, so the guy was a jerk -- so does that mean he can be a "good girl" by becoming a slut or streetwalker?
I prefer the "Seasons" by Tigger. There, the male is changed to become a decent person withour SRS, losing a ball, or anything like that.
Off-topic, I am of the opinion that deep down, possibly at our "soul" level, we are the opposite of the sex we present as. Why? The sexes balance. Not to upset anyone, but IMVHO I do think that many who think they're in the "wrong body" are experiencing an "epiphany" of sorts.
Annie in PA
Annie in PA
It seems to me that ...
... surviving the aftermath of an unwanted transformation is really a matter of flexibility. In a way, it's similar to when someone loses a limb on a battlefield. For a man turned into a woman against his will, there are two choices. You can wrap yourself around the injustice, hold onto it tight, and make it your defining life event -- your reason for being. Or you can acknowledge that your world has changed through no fault of your own, make peace with the new reality, and move on to deal with the repercussions.
I'm not saying the second choice is an easy one. And I'm not saying that this is always an option -- that someone born transgendered should be able to just "shut up and soldier." I know from one of my closest friends that doing your best to just "keep on keeping on" often translates into "hanging on in quiet desperation" as Pink Floyd once said. But in a fictional setting, someone with years of life experience learning and adapting to new situations could conceivably adjust to having such a drastic life change thrust upon them. One of my characters, Stark, is coming to grips with her new life, and what she chose to become to cope with the nature of her change -- and isn't liking what she sees. Another one, Regina in The Hardest Battle, is using the lessons she was taught as her father's heir and prince of the realm to deal with her transformation -- "seeing the battlefield as it is, and not how we wish it could be."
I don't think the adjustment in an unwanted transformation story would be insurmountable by definition -- just very difficult, requiring the will to adapt and the willingness to move forward.
My two cents. *smile*
Randalynn
Forced Transformations
Unto: All and Sundry
From: The Ignorant Idiot
( A reluctant, BUT UN-Repentant Evil Shite! )
I have read the comments with some amusement.
While a bit "unrealistic" for the most part "Forced Femininazation"
Transformations, by means of fantastic science or "Magic" means are an
old part of Trans-Gendered Lit.
They provide a means by wich the male might like a sensual pleasure
source with out haveing to admit to "sissyness". ( After all, IT WAS
DONE TO HIM!!!! )
More thoughts to come when more time to write!
Transformation is change is death is rebirth
Transformation is the death of what you are and the birth of whatever you are changing into. TF stories are about change.
I would imagine that if you begin life in the wrong body, you are stuck between what you are and what you should be. Stories of transformation - almost *any* transformation - would be fascinating. If it is forced, then there is resistance in the character to change. There is a feeling that this new form is wrong.
Perhaps like beginning life in the wrong body.
Accepting change - any change in one's life - is entirely personal. We humans are supposed to be the masters of adaptation - living in almost any physical climate on earth from desert wastelands to high altitudes to brutal tundras to rain forests. But what parts of our environment and our selves we are willing to adapt to is entirely up to the individual.
For me, accepting the idea that "transformation will never physically happen to me" ended when I fully accepted the 90/10 rule: 10% of life is what happens to you (the cards you are dealt). 90% is how you *react* to it.
After first hearing about the rule, I began observing its effect on others - how others react to change and bad news. The fact that any major change - even incredibly positive things like literally winning the lottery - can send people into severe depression. The characters on TV that had horrible things happen to them but just kept being happy despite all the pain. Are they truly happy? Just because science has proven that by force-smiling for 10 seconds tricks your brain into thinking you're happy - does that apply to *everything* in life?
Being able to imagine myself as another creature or gender is all I have been given. I have chosen to accept, celebrate, enjoy and make fun of it. I have spent more than enough time crying, shouting, and beating myself up. I'm done with the negative and have moved on to the positive.
Just thinking out loud... ^.^