To the people who believe that you can be cured of a condition like being transgender, a big part of that is based on the idea that the environment a child grows up in makes the difference in terms of how secure they feel in their birth gender.
For example, they would look at my life, and the lack of any decent male role models, and then sexual abuse by a male on top of that, and conclude that this lack caused me to hate my gender, enough to want to become female instead.
Unfortunately, since we do not possess a way to go back in time and change how I was raised, we have no way to prove that it would have had any impact on my being trans or not. So, I'm stuck with the background I have, and trying to make the best of the hand I was dealt.
Its my opinion that if I had a great dad who I trusted, I would have considered coming out a lot sooner, rather than waiting as long as I did, rather than not have the struggle at all, but you'll never convince the disbelievers that Dorothy was something real long before my environment would have created her.
Ah, well.
Comments
There are studies...
People who claim that, despite evidence to the contrary, are people who want to believe it. It doesn't matter how much evidence you provide them they choose to ignore it because they like being ignorant.
For instance, it is completely accepted by the scientific community (after many studies) that people are born homosexual. It is not something that can ever be fixed. It's not a product of environment. However, you will still find people who ignore this information and cling to easily disprovable opinion, believing there are places that can actually "cure homosexuality." It doesn't matter how well crafted your argument is against them, if they are not willing to listen or change they will flat out refuse to do so.
The only time your argument stands a chance is with someone who is fully neutral on the subject. Someone who hasn't made up their mind can be persuaded. Anyone who has made up their mind cannot. It takes a lot of work to convince someone they're wrong, even with the information sitting in front of them. People don't like being wrong.
All you can really do is educate those who are willing to learn and hope popular opinion eventually turns in your favour. That's how homosexuality gained public acceptance. That's how transgender issues will gain public acceptance. Sadly, it takes decades.
huh
The debate between nature and nurture are as old as psychology itself. There are no studies at all to prove whether or not someone is born hetero or homo sexual. It is not something that can be tested inside the womb or outside of the womb during infancy. By saying what you are saying, you might as well as take any behavior and say that it is determined at birth. NO BEHAVIOR IS DETERMINED AT BIRTH. You might have a predisposition for a certain type of behavior, but that does not limit your responsibility on acting on that behavior.
I particularly hate the "born gay" rhetoric, as I have no choice, I was born that way. Then we should apply that across the board. I know I'm a rapist, but I can't help it, I was born that way. I know I'm a pedophile, I can't help it, I was born that way. I know I'm a violent murderer... etc. etc. It doesn't wash with me.
Is a person born transgender. I will admit that I don't know. A lot of things that are associated with gender are more in lines with social mores than they are genetic make-up. You can not be predisposed to want to wear certain fashions, to display emotions, to wear makeup. Those things are trappings of femininity that escape genetics.
I think that being trans is probably a combination of nature and nurture, with my leanings more towards nurture. I know of the scientific study that shows transgender brains are more inline to a genetically female brain, but all those studies are done post-facto, so it's sort of the chicken and egg thing. Did they have a female brain that caused them to be trans? or was it because they were trans that they developed a female brain?
Until they have a test to determine gender orientation (like they do for downs syndrome or spina bifida) then I will say the whole notion that one is born trans is inconclusive at best. The only statement you can say for certainty on the fact, and this only applies for m2f trans, is that we all start out as female in the womb.
Katie Leone (Katie-Leone.com)
Writing is what you do when you put pen to paper, being an author is what you do when you bring words to life
None of what you said was
None of what you said was true. There are studies, 60 years of psychological testing for one. But more to the point, your strawman argument implies that I would disagree that one is "born a paedophile." That's an interesting argument, and one I'd like to see explored by the scientific community.
If sexuality and sexual attraction is a born trait then it's possible that paedophilia is also a born trait. I've no issue with that assertion. Your claim that no behaviour is determined at birth is baseless. Your proof in disagreeing with me was merely that you don't like that people aren't accountable for their actions? It's not about removing accountability. It's about finding a motivation for their actions. More to the point, accountability had nothing to do with my argument.
You said yourself "I think that being trans is probably a combination of nature and nurture." That is in direct conflict with what you said earlier in your own posting: "NO BEHAVIOR IS DETERMINED AT BIRTH." You need to choose one opinion and stick with it. You also need better reasoning than "It doesn't wash with me." That's not enough justification. That's not the basis for a sound argument.
Your arguments have been illogical. They've been strawmans. You took what I said, changed the argument slightly, and then attempted to debunk it. That's a very bad way to argue. I made no mention of other behaviours being determined at birth. I made no mention of rapists. I made no mention of paedophiles. I made no mention of murderers. All you've done is argued against things I haven't laid claim to. This has accomplished nothing of value.
I for one
I for one would be interested in seeing the studies cited. Just what studies, by whom and where can I review the findings?
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
Ich bin ein femininer Mann
actually it does.
http://www2.nau.edu/~bio372-c/class/behavior/apbg.htm
This way you don't have to take my word for it.
Here is the issue. Until you can find a genetic marker for determining someone will be homosexual you cannot prove the theory that a person is born that way. Finding someone who is homosexual and then saying oh, look, we found something, is putting the horse before the cart. Your brain develops as you are introduced to stimuli, thus shaping it. Little inconsequential events (from an adults point of view) during the infancy - 5 year old range (where you have the most growth, second most in the teen years) can have a lifetime of ramifications. Certain traits can be determined (hair color, eye color) but behaviors can't and homosexuality is a behavior. Take handedness. Being left handed or right handed is a behavior. If it were genetic, then offspring of parents who are left handed should also be left handed as well, basic genetics, but, studies have shown that only 26 % of children born to left handed parents are left handed. You can argue that it is a non-dominant gene, if you did, then no children of right handed parents would be left handed.
Now, my belief that trans is a combination of genetics and environment is at odds with the psychological research that behavior is not determined by genetics. The two statements can co-exist. The first is my opinion, the second is commonly accepted psychological theory. The reason I can hold that belief is because as a person with a degree in psychological growth and development, I know that psychology is the study of behaviors. So, naturally, anything in the psychology field tends to lean towards nurture than nature (even though they try to say it doesn't at times, it does).
No you didn't make mention of other behaviors being determined at birth, I just applied your theory across other paradigms to show you the danger of the myth that you claimed to be beyond the shadow of a doubt proof. I gave a link of one paper proving my point, there are thousands of more, plus text books and lecturers. I didn't even go to the religious sites, this way I could stay away from their agenda. Now show me your scientific proof.
Katie Leone (Katie-Leone.com)
Writing is what you do when you put pen to paper, being an author is what you do when you bring words to life
Actually...
There was a study where a set of identical twins... One was surgically made female, and raised that way - the other raised male... And followed into teens. The report was they were both well adjusted... "Success for nurture" Right? Wrong... The one raised female... Eventually transitioned to male.
You are welcome to your belief, but the body of evidence shows that M2F people's brain scans look more like women's brains than men's brains (and F2M brain scans look like males). There are also brain components that appear to be related to attraction. These are done with MRIs - not autopsy.
As I said elsewhere... I was brought up male, buy loving parents - in an environment I can only describe as very good. Despite this, I knew I was different and hid it (for approval, safety, etc.). I also didn't believe it was possible to be different (That took a while for my therapist and I to get through... Me explaining what I felt, her coming to understand where I was and why I was confused and such. It was like a light going off discovering that there was actually a NAME for what I had felt and was going through.). This was back in the mid '80s... And, I was an officer in the US Navy at the time... And happily married.
So - no nurturing made me want to be a girl...
Anne
Male role models
I was raised with many male role models and it made no difference to me. It was very noticeable that I was not your typical boy. My older brother spent most of his time trying to toughen me up. Tried to encourage me to do home improvement projects, not my forte. Tried to talk me into joining the air force to make a man out of me, I resisted that because I knew I could not survive basic training, be like Goldie Hawn in Private Benjiman. Tried to get me to fish, now that was an experience, I don't like worms so one of my brothers had to worm the hook for me, as I did not want to hurt or touch the worm, then if I caught a fish, one of them had to take it off the hook as I did not want to touch the wet, slimy fish. lol
Male role models?
I had a lot of them, including my father - a wonderful man!
And, it had no impact on whether I was a female or not.
PERHAPS, in some cases, it's possible some who are transgender (F2M) have "been made" that way through horrible experience with males... But, I don't bet on it... And, even if it's the case it's likely not a large percent.
Reparative therapy has been shown (many times) to not work. And, in at least once case (twins where one was "changed" and raised contrary) that was reported to show nurturer was the controlling factor... Subsequent time showed this to not be the case.
Annette
A Two Sided Story
I very much feel as if I'd had decent role models, and a stable family it would have helped a lot; perhaps to the extent that I could have lived out a life as a very mild, slightly effiminate male. Yes, I hated males and being male. And it turned out that I was actually both male and female genetically.
I think the next 10 years will be really telling, and that science will have come to the general public in that realm.
Gwendolyn
Role models are not the reason for being transgendered
I grew up with plenty of male role models, I should have been a tomboy with all that testosterone in the vicinity. I have always been feminine, I liked playing with dolls, doing things girls do. I was pressured to be masculine. My birth determined my gender not who was raising me. No matter how har they tried to bet me to be masculine I was feminine by nature. I was a goof actor do what is right as a boy around other boys. Be the girl I am when I am not around the boys.
I did a twenty year career in the military. On my free time I shopped and dressed as a girl. I retired got divorced and have been living as a female since.
My childhood hero was Christine Jorgenson, I wanted to be just like her.
Jill Micayla
Be kinder than necessary,Because everyone you meet
Is fighting some kind of battle.
I was the same way. My
I was the same way. My mother let me have a few Dawn dolls, which I played with until they disappeared, had Dawn doll colorform set, where you dressed the dolls in different outfits. I was allowed to trick or treat in female costumes until I was five. I remember my older brother freaking out because I got a toy stove for Christmas that year. I also got a Raggedy Andy doll and was disappointed in that I did not the Raggedy Ann doll that I really wanted. Since I was around three years old, I realized I should have been born a girl and so I felt like the Lord made a mistake for a long time.
None of us knows
None of us really knows the true etiology of the outbreak of cross gender feelings. I take the broad view of it; believing that there are numbers of different causations. Taking the narrow view, were it true, and that there were just a couple causes, then I would probably NOT fit in such a narrow classification and should still be living as a male.
I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.
Gwendolyn
Male role models
To me, a true male role model will support his child's life choices, not use a son to relive his glory days of touth.
May Your Light Forever Shine
Silence is Golden
In my autobiographical sketch, "Silence is Golden" I outline the very strong male role modeling in my life and my inexorable attraction to expressing my feminine nature.
Fortunately for me, my father, a man's man, realized that it was just the way I was and loved me anyway. I wish I'd been wise enough to come out fully to him in my teen years instead of waiting until I was twenties, when I began visiting him en femme and he made it clear to me that it didn't matter to him if his neighbors saw me coming and going from his apartment.
I suspect that I could have bought some clothes that actually fit, were in style, and age appropriate. Ah... for the could have beens, should have beens and would have beens... if only...
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
Ich bin ein femininer Mann
I'm inclined to think it is 90% nature
I have loved dressing as a girl, especially in silks, satins and taffetas since I can remember (probably age 2 or 3).
I had a strong male role model in my father, an Army medic during WW II across the Pacific, my father faced pressure and danger that few could imagine. However, he was a quiet, considerate man who never started a fight, but often finished it. He was strong without being macho, competent without arrogance and a gentleman beyond compare. He became a MD and was beloved by his patients and community. As his youngest, late-in-life 'surprise' baby boy -- I received tons of love from both parents and siblings. I was spoiled rotten.
I suffered no abuse nor trauma, I had an idyllic childhood. I played water polo and rugby growing up. I did reasonably well in school and had enough friends. When I started dating, I didn't have a hard time finding a girlfriend. I was the guy others envied.
But...if you had offered me a pill from age 11 through 20 that would have instantly changed me into a girl. I would have taken it. I was comfortable and competent in the male role. I was a blond, white male jock living in California raised in the upper middle-class suburbs. I would have traded it all to be a girl so I could fulfill my dreams as a pink satin princess.
My mother dressed nicely and had lots of clothes. My sister was seven years older, was seldom home and I had free reign through her closets. I would dress in woman's clothes, lingerie and play with silk scarves when my parents went out for their numerous social engagements. I pulled pictures from my Mom's fashion catalogs and became expert in fabric and design - all of this in secret. I'm sure my stash was discovered, but I was never confronted nor exposed.
As a child of the '80s living outside San Francisco. I had opportunities to find other crossdressers to hang with, which I did. I had loads of homosexual propositions, but gay sex wasn't a turn-on for me. I developed some close friendships with gay men and women, but in my mind, my big turn-on was to be dressed to the nines with my female lover who was also dressed to kill. To be a satin bride to a beautiful and intelligent woman was my ultimate fantasy.
Again, my life has been very fortunate. I met a beautiful woman who was a former model and beauty queen. After dating a couple of months, I told her my secret. Her reaction was "is that it? I love silks and satins too." Her reaction was if given the choice, who wouldn't prefer being a woman when it came to enjoyment and relaxation. She did contend that men had it made in the work world, but given her determination, that would change as well. We married and started a family. I cook, take care of children, can sew - but also coach youth sports, built a house extension myself and scuba dive. I am equally comfortable wearing the pants in the family, but my wife knows that I when we go out, I would rather wear her dress than my suit. There is no "men's work" or "women's work" - it is just us, together as a team.
So now, 22 years of marriage later. We have four kids, I dress in silken nightclothes every night and we enjoy fashion shows and SF Giants baseball (especially this season) equally. Maybe for our 25th Anniversary, we will renew our vows and I will get to be the bride. Better start dieting now.
In conclusion, I cannot see that anything in my environment would have positively or negatively driven me to want to wear women's clothing. But the desire was (is) always there. I always turn my head when I a glimpse of satin from someones outfit. If satin* were alcohol or a drug, I would be an abuser. It is fine in the few men's clothing that is made of satin, but is fabulous in female clothing.
NOTE: I maybe more of a satin fetish rather than transgendered. While I admire women's clothing. I do not daydream about wool skirts, nor crisp cotton blouses. The shiny, soft and feminine nature of silks and satins is a big component of my attraction. I do prefer the complexity and caring of female friendships, so I would admit to having more of a feminine brain.