I have once again been accused of negativity by Sephrena.
Worse, I have been accused of disrespecting those who served in the war.
Wow!
Jill Micyla talked of the amnesty those who went to Canada received. Are you aware, Jill, that the "amnesty" was circumvented by local draft boards? When a person either went AWOL or refused induction the local draft board often requested the local court to issue a bench warrant for the arrest of that individual. Many who came back from Canada, thinking they had received "amnesty" were thrown into jail for "contempt of court". Many served long prison terms or did years of public service.
My brother was one of those who left for Canada after fighting the system and finding out you can't beat the man. He refused induction. He was the first one in our state to do it, long before most Americans could pronoun Vietnam or Laos. He was an activist, rode the Freedom buses with MLK. Taught in an experimental school. He told the federal judge that he could not serve because he didn't believe in the war and could not kill someone over something he didn't believe in. My brother had studied the situation. He has a 160+ IQ and an inquisitive mind. We were raised Roman Catholic so he could not get a conscientious objector status. The judge said, "If you're not asked to go to Vietnam and you don't carry a gun, would you have a problem serving?" My brother said he would serve under those conditions. The judge then said "The army has lots of other jobs you can do." and than proceeded to administer the oath.
My brother went through basic training. After he was assigned to infantry and given his orders to go to Vietnam, he left and went to Canada. This was back when the government cared about people leaving the Army without permission. We often had FBI agents at our door asking if we had heard from him. We didn't/hadn't for the next six months until we finally got a letter from Canada.
The first time he came back to the US was after Jimmy Carter's amnesty. He was arrested at the border as a felon, but our local draft board did not decide to do what so many others did.
I grew up on a farm in a conservative state. My family suffered mightily as people questioned our patriotism and his upbringing. I mentioned previously a friend who received the medal of honor for actions that got him killed in Vietnam. I didn't mention the fistfight he and I had one night when he called my brother a coward. We had just heard about a friend who was killed in Vietnam and everyone's nerves were frayed.Can you imagine my conflicted thoughts about how my brother left us to wallow in his mess?
I have had to work through issues concerning war from a very young age. I was in high school when my brother left and in college during the last four years of the 60's.
Am I sensitive to discussion of war? Very. Do I believe it is negative to question the propriety of militaristic humor? Not at all. Is questioning the appropriateness of jingoistic humor disrepectful of those who serve? That is a stretch.
I had many close friends who served and many who didn't come back. Of those who did come back, some were changed in ways that made me hate war even more. I understand perfectly why those who served use humor to deal with their internal pain.
Am I the only one on this board who feels this way? Not at all. Curiously, a person who is quite outspoken on this board sent me a PM saying she didn't dare say so publicly but she agreed entirely with what I said. given the outcry and Sephrena's public condemnation of me as "negative", I can understand why she didn't go public.
Sephrena -- you don't like me. I've tried to reach out to you, but you've done little to reciprocate. When you recently posted a complaint that you didn't have the money to pay the prizes for the October contest I felt sorry for you and immediately offered financial assiatance. I sent the first $75 to Erin and stand reeady to send the final $75. Is that negative? I've often stepped up with financial contributions to this site as well as making my books avaiable for Erin to sell. I receive no share of what people pay to buy them. Is that negative?
Even though I had a story in the October contest I spent considerable time helping two other authors prepare their stories. They have both told me their stories were much better because of my help. Is that negative?
Questioning appropriateness is not negativity. Military humor seems to be something of a sacred cow. Questioning the appropriateness of military humor does not disrespect those who served or their motivations. I mentioned my brother's intelligence. Several of those I knew who served in Vietnam were extremely intelligent. One of them went on to be the general in charge of the Air Force actions in Afghanistan. Rumsfield took away his position when he refused to send planes back to do needless bombing. I was in AFROTC so many of my friends where officers. Other friends were in Army ROTC,so you can imagine what their life was like in Vietnam as they came in with targets on their backs. Intelligence didn't separate those who served from those who didn't. Often the degree of patriotism was as strong or stronger in those who dissented as it was in those who served.
Loving your country can involve questioning the sacred cows.
Do I get a pain in my ass every time I see a Support Our Troops sticker? You bet I do. But not because I don't respect the troops. I hate those things because they are merely smart marketing by cheap politicians. Those cynical bastards have used the troops to rally conservative backers to send more money to Washington for the re-election campaigns - much of which will eventually end up in the politician's personal pocket. The very same politicians refuse to properly fund veteran's benefits. Cynicism allowed to grow that degree is negativism.
Jill
Comments
>> smart marketing by cheap politicians...
Hear, hear.
Cheers,
Puddin'
-----------
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.â€
-- Joseph Goebbels
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
I can sympathise with these feelings
My uncle was a conscientious objector to a different war: The South African Border War on the border between Namibia (then South West Africa) and Angola. He was against fighting for a regime he believed did not serve all the people of our country. Two of my other uncles fought in this war and they still do not talk about it. It was a war that was unknown to the outside world but a war that affected many of that generation very deeply. Ironically the phrase, "There is no apartheid in a foxhole," grew out of the fact that local indigenous people fought alongside the forces of the apartheid government in the same unit, 32 Battalion (The Parabats) being and example. This war was deeply unpopular on the home front and is one of the causes of the referendum being passed in 1990 which led to our first free elections in 1994. In my family there are still traces of this. I remember my uncle diving under a table during a thunder storm thinking he was back on the front line in Angola.
I know for a fact
That Jill worked long and hard hours on someone else's entry for the Summer Romance contest. It was a good story before she took it under her red pencil. It was great after she did. After I helped with some "internet lingo" that she had suggested to the author to have someone do, it again went under that same red pencil, and then the final product was fantastic. The credit for the story ENTIRELY belongs to the author, but she also wrote a story that was wonderful and enthralling enough to draw both Jill and myself into wanting to help her perfect it. She ended up being one of the co-winners for that story.
I've never had more than a disagreement with Jill, and in most cases, I find I agree with her. She says things quite plainly and it angers a lot of people that she doesn't perfume it up when she points out things -- but you know what? If you just put aside the shock and anger at not having things pointed out to you in soft ways... you'll find that she usually has hard logic and good sense both behind what she says.
I've never had a problem
with either Jill or Sephrena personally, and while by no means is that to say that I agree with everything they say, I don't see how things got so out of hand here. Jill is the LAST person I would accuse of negativity -- not only has she always been supportive of my own efforts, which I greatly appreciate, but she has more than once shown her willingness to use her own work to promote the site with no benefit other than name recognition.
I'm not gonna comment on the military or political side of the arguments for the simple reason that anything I say or make judgements on will be done with a misinformed and skewed viewpoint based on my own moral judgements rather than taking in all the facts to make an impartial assessment, though I do tend to agree with the idea that you should support those willing to stand for their country even if you don't believe in the conflict they are engaged in, but by that same notion I see no shame in not agreeing with the decisions, practices, or policies of our nation's armed forces.
Sometimes things get out of hand, and, I'll admit, my comment here is probably not going to do anything to improve the situation, but in the end BC is supposed to be a place where people are supportive of one another, and even if we disagree, well, it's a WEB SITE, not a debate hall -- there's no reason for anything from anybody to ever be posted in anger because of the diminished sense of urgency that SHOULD be a part of the medium. Everybody can have their say on every issue without having to shout it over everybody else and without denying someone else the opportunity to express their own views. Every comment or side has the opportunity to be thoroughly researched, referenced, and worded well to have the best possible impact, should the author wish to take the time to do so, and those who don't should expect their own comments or arguments to be debated against, and be able to take it in a calm and somewhat rational manner.
It's the internet, not a colliseum -- mud slinging from one person to another should be easy to avoid. I realize that might seem counter to the general way the internet works, but there really is no reason that EVERYbody on a site like this can't make sound judgements and approach things with all due consideration of others feelings and/or what was trying to be said.
Jill's opinions on the issues of the military whatsis all this is over is valid. Those who don't agree with her -- okay. Your opinion is equally valid. The two don't have to be mutually exclusive, nor should they be reason for arguments in a place where you have every opportunity to think through your responses like BC is -- debate, yes, but argument, no.
Be passionate, people, but don't be petty or hasty to jump at one another. It's not worth it, and only hurts everyone when it happens. Jill, like I said before, I've very rarely seen you say anything on this site that could be actively construed as negative, and then only when provoked. Cynical sometimes, maybe, but that's not a bad thing, and the site is richer for your input not only on larger issues but on the level of how you've impacted individual authors as well. Come on, people, can't we all just... get along?
Melanie E.
Angela/Jill, I did not see
Angela/Jill,
I did not see Sephrena's comment, and although I looked they do appear to be unpublished at this time, so I cannot comment directly on her comment regarding your alleged negativity.
With regards to your comments on Nancy's blog, (which also seem to be unpubed)overall I had no problem with what you said, other then where you said it. I know that I saw a later comment from you which as much as acknowledged that the post should have been a seperate blog regarding that kind of military humour as opposed to having been in her blog which was more about using humour to diffuse situations and stress. Her examples of military humour made her point.
Based on your public comments, I think that you are in agreement with that point.
You are certainly an active member of this site, and continue to make a significant financial and other contribution to keep it running. I really don't think anyone can argue that point.
You have also worked with many of the author's here to help them improve their writing. From what I have seen you're writing skills are technically excellent, and I know that you continue to strive to improve yourself, as well as the level of those you work with.
You and I have had very little interaction in the time that I have been here. That is most likely because I like to read, and frankly write the kinds of stories that I have gotten the (perhaps mistaken) impression are like fingernails on the blackboard for you, and so we don't cross each other's paths often, except maybe in the occassional blog.
Like most of us (myself included!), you have strong opinions. You certainly do not give the impression of holding back, or as someone else pointed out "perfuming" your opinions, and that sometimes leads to "angry" words.
This is a severly divided country we live in today. It is unfortunate that we live in a time where things are so polarized. It is one of the reasons I am glad that Erin has a strict no politics guideline, because as a general rule there is no way to speak on these topics today without someone getting upset, and it is therefore contrary to the stated purpose of this site. The topic of military humour is a grey area on that fringe, and is definitely one that people are passionate about. Clearly you struck a nerve, just as Nancy's original comments struck one of yours.
I will not comment too much on this subject out of respect for Erin's rules on politics, other then to say I lean more towards your views at least with regards to the war in Iraq. Afghanistan is an entirely different subject, but again I don't want to get into politics.
You certainly are known to have strong opinions on how this site should be run, and you have on occassion made some strong statements about certain types of stories, etc. Some of those statements have been known to rankle others, but you are also entitled to your opinion. Ultimately how the site is run, is Erin's decision of course, and as long as we all accept that in the end, we can all make suggestions to her.
The only interaction I specifically remember having with you personally was a fairly ascerbic remark in response to a comment I made, which frankly surprised me as I felt that my original comment had pretty much been in line with yours. When I spoke of it with someone else, they told me that it was probably not meant the way I took it, that your wit can be dry and sometimes is misinterpreted.
Again, I can't really comment on Sephrena's comment because I didn't see it. Are you negative? From what I see, strong willed, forceful definitely, but those are not necessarily negative. Perhaps it is simply further misinterpretation?
Perhaps it is simply the irony that for someone of your notable skills as an author, that the intent of your comments is not being interpreted as you intend. I know the effort you put into your writing, but have no way of knowing whether you put the same effort into your word choices when posting an opinion. I know in my case for instance, my immediate thought on your comment to me was that, since I respect your ability as an author, that the word choice was deliberate and confrontational. Perhaps it wasn't, just food for thought.
In the end, speaking as someone that is looking on from the outside, I would say that your overall effect in this community is a positive. As you point out both financially and in assistance to other writers, there really cannot be any debate.
I don't know if you will find any of this of use, and perhaps I ought to have stayed out of it altogether, but I felt I could offer these observations and you can of course take them and do what you will with them.
I will get up on my soap box and make one final statement, not necessarily pointed at you Angela/Jill, but at the community as a whole; I agree with Teddi. I would love to see the BCTS community try to come together and work toward a more harmonious existance. We won't all agree on everything, nor should we. Discussion can be good, but we ALL need to keep in mind the purpose of the site. We also need to realize that we are really guests in Erin's Living room, and that her number one rule for her guests is stay civil. And of course that number 2 rule is that we as guests don't get to make up the guest list, that is Erin's responsibility.
If we can all do that then maybe we can stop with some of the hurt feelings that keep erupting all over.
Kristy
Communication
Thank you for your comments --
You stories are hardly nails on a blackboard. Your initial story was extremely thought-provoking.
I'm sorry something I said hurt you. I would hope it was a mis-communication.
So many people try to write and quit in frustration when they find out how hard it is to communicate on paper. In my business I communicate with thousands of people at a time, mostly through newsletters and e-mails. I'm often amazed at how words are interpreted by people. People go into any communication with pre-conceived ideas. You can say exactly the same thing to a dozen peope and have a dozen quite different reactions, because they each have a different expectation from you from past history.
Communications experts state that only 15% of what we communicate in a conversation is the actual words. When we write we don;t have body language, which is powerful, hand gesture, infliction, facial expressions, etc. which make up the other 85%. Written communication is a damned poor way to exchange ideas. Whenever possible I have face-to-face meetings. I spend thousands of dollars each year holding seminars with business associates to facilitate better communication.
The probelm at BC is magnified. Almost all of us who come to BC have been "abused". I would make that 100% if we include the abuse society heaps on us unknowingly because of ignorance and misunderstanding. Many here have been horribly abused in every definition -- many sexually abused.
All of us have made hard decisions about our transgendered nature. Those decisions have caused guilt, shame, fear, repression, loss of consortium, financial ruin, and a raft of other wonderful consequences.
Yet -- the majority of us -- after due consideration -- have concluded that being who we are is a good thing. To reach such a conclusion we have to become guarded and more than a little pro-active. That has an impact on our personalities that might be considered "prickly".
When you see something from me that you think is hurtful, let me know. I want to know if I hurt someone. I want to make it right -- and I bet most everyone here feels the same way.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Uniform Code of Military Justice
Angela;
tjhe draft board had nothing to do with your brothers prosecution, nor was he granted amnesty by Jimmy Carter. He was not a draft dodger. He most likely was persecuted under Article 85 Desertion and article 86 Absent without Leave (Unauthorized Absence)
of the Unifrom Code of Military Justice.
Its rules are a bit tighter than the civilian population. Uncle Sam Does not want his Service members to be where they are not supposed to be without authorization.
He was either given a Special Courts Martial or a General Courts martial. As for Concientious Objector (C.O.) all he had to do was claim he was an C.O. and there would have been a process to keep him from going to the Police Action. His religion was not a bearing.
I've been on active duty with several C.O.'s and to me they work just like any other service member.
The draft board had no say so in your brothers treatment upon return to the U.S.
I hold no grudge against those who are pacifist, nor those who oppose war. There are plenty of men who served to protect and serve for the rights of others. I would defend to the death your right to speak as you want to.
Jill Micayla
May you have a wonderful today and a better tomorrow
Jill Micayla
Be kinder than necessary,Because everyone you meet
Is fighting some kind of battle.