Disclaimer: I am not suicidal.
Years ago, right after I came out, and went through all that happens to us, I was extremely depressed, and hospitalized several times. Such pain and depressive episodes is common amongst those in our community, so I am nothing special, and do not need anyone to call the Police. It was a very fortunate thing that I served in the Military 66-69, so am seen as a Vietnam Era Veteran, so the VA has been very caring of me in most ways. I sometimes feel like an interloper because I did not see combat.
I just want to discuss the working through of some realizations that a very good story here has brought on. We've all experienced the rejection and hatefulness that some deal out to us, and are familiar with the emotional pain, the tears, and the feelings of worthlessness.
I've realized that the Navajo Two Spirit expression better fits me than the more well known term of Transgender. It is painful to accept that so much of the pain I've experienced was not necessary, perhaps. I'm half Cherokee, and my X, who I'd been married to for 39 years is half Native American (Montana), though I do not know the tribe. I wonder, had we both been in contact with our respective people if the idea of Two Spirit would have come up? There is a distinct difference between the Native American Two Spirit and the LGBT Two Spirit. No criticism is intended. There are two paths and the Native American one would have served me better.
I am not going solely by the story "The Trials and Tribulations...", but it did cause me to do my own research and will talk with the very few surviving family members. In my own opinion Teddie's story is very accurate culturally, but it is not my own. It's very painful to accept that while this new realization has given me a sense of being worth something that I've never had, I am not Navajo. But the idea of Two Spirit is seen as normal in many of the Native American peoples, so no hatred and rejection there. For the first time EVER I feel that my being alive is valid!
Last night at dinner with some folk, someone who smugly fancies themselves to be an expert in Mental Health, felt that I would be very depressed when I realized that the Navajo would likely NOT accept me. It's been an awful night, bloody awful, and no I did not wish to speak to anyone. I feared that if I called one of the crisis lines they would overreact, and ther'd be a knocking on my door. The person I had dinner with said that I was a very high suicide risk, and she did that right when I was feeling quite content, and happy with myself. This was clearly a case of someone practicing as a counselor who is not qualified.
Still there was all that to work through, and it feels like I've come out of the blackness again. I'm thankful that I'm in contact with a very supportive community here at BCTS. We've been through it together.
Much peace to all of you.
Gwen
Comments
Here I am commenting ...
... and I myself have been suicidal in recent times as I posted in my blog not to long ago.
May I ask these questions to you though just to understand your struggle a bit more.
What did the realization and acceptance of the Navajo Two Spirit identity change in you for the better, and how did what this uninformed person said change your perception of self again? Do you need to be accepted by the Navajo tribe to accept yourself as a Two Spirit Identity?And how will this realization change your interaction with your immediate social circles now that you identify as Two Spirit? And how do you expect their acceptance of this realization will play out?
These are questions that I think you might have to work through. Have had similar questions since transitioning 22years ago. Not about being two spirit, but about what presenting as a woman means.
My expression as a woman fluctuate so far on the spectrum that people have called me totally and utterly confused. I would occilate between being completely butch and imposing when I played golf to dressing and acting like a complete Barbie doll all dressed up at the after party at some important golf events, so much so that people did not believe I was the same person.
May your problem not just also reside in you choosing that to be accepted as a woman you have limited ways of expressing your female self?
I was nicked named, by one of the people I worked for, called a 'Siamese Monster' because my gender expression was so over the place.I could see her point, but I could not really change myself to constantly fit what she said was the ideal expression of 'being a woman' for someone like me... Eventually I had to say 'fuck it's and be true to my authentic self, not a societally imposed ideal of what I should be.
I have mentioned it before, but I am just shy of 6 foot, with the shoulders of a linebacker, and me in 3inch or 4inch heels is quit an imposing sight.
but it is the rare moments of beauty and peace
in between the chaos,
That makes it worth living."
- Tertia Hill
Agreed!!!
I myself have come to that same conclusion, I had written something a few years ago that talked about breaking stereotypes. My entire life I struggle to fit into a very macho Uber masculine stereotype... When I started my transition I thought I was supposed to ‘fit’ into an Uber feminine one... It took me a few years to finally realize I don’t want to fit in to others perceptions... I’m who I am, love me, hate me, I don’t care... I’m happy with myself and Other people’s opinions don’t matter to me unless I let them...
Don’t feel too bad about your build, I’m a solid 6 ft tall and still (even after six years of HRT) built like a linebacker... This pic was after our after labor day ‘white’ party here for the Lgbt community... Now I lived on a boat and didn’t own white (it only got dingy) but a drag friend of mine let me borrow the clothes... This is a drummer friend of mine, and Ducky isn’t all that short... Well unless he stands next to me...
I’m just glad shoulder pads aren’t really in style... Im afraid if they were and I tried to wear them I’d be tempted to cup my hands under some random dudes behind and yell out, “blue 32, blue 32!!!”
I know I’m weird. The fact that I’m trans is probably one of the more normal things about me.
Two Spirit
It's complicated. Sure, I am not Navajo, so they are not going to accept me. I would hope that the Cherokee would accept me as Two Spirit. If not, then I can accept myself after a fashion, I hope. Not to be whiny, my home life growing up was mega abusive, mainly over my not being a Testosterone steaming hulk. And my mother gave me a girl's name. I was always little and skinny and only got to 5'7", though in later life I am fairly broad shouldered. My voice is high and feminine.
I married the first girl I met out of High School. She was in one hell of a situation, and I could not leave her in it. Love? Who knows what that is? We were married 39 years and to have this TG diagnosis surface then, ended the marriage immediately. The loss of everything at that time was devastating, and I almost did not survive it. I'd gotten used to living with no family and all the rejection that we get.
This Navajo Two Spirit thing took me by surprise and for a while it felt like I'd been taken up by Angels for a while. Even my own research verified aspects that I had questions about.
I have it easier than most t folk in that I seem to pass almost without exception. I was looking at some Cherokee families and my own family has that appearance, and so do I.
In the final analysis, I have it very good and need to get over not having my little fantasies fulfilled.
Blessings
Gwen
I am sorry if it seems to you ...
... that I am implying in anyway that you are only wanting 'your fantasies fulfilled '.
Far from it.
Did you transition completely from male to female? If so are you now going to 'de-transition' with your new realization of being Two Spirit? Yet still present as female some of the time and as male most of the time? Would this be to accept yourself, or have others accept you more readily?
You are not really making it clear as to what your problem is exactly...
If it is just you accepting you as being Two Spirit you have no real problem, because as a female you could if you want to dress any day of the week as a male, cut your hair if you need to and all that jazz. If you want official recognition as being a Two Spirit Identity,to have a diffirent label attached to your life by which people 'now need' to identify you by, then you might have to find that answer and persue it?
If I may just ask one more question, what is the difference between living a Gender Fluid life and living the life of a Two Spirit Identity? It seems awefully similar to me, accept if you say that in NA Indian tradition official recognition as a Two Spirit Identity means something to your level of acceptance in your community.
In the end, who you are and what you present as, be it male or female, is up to you. You will still have to deal with acceptance and rejection from people around you no matter side which of the bed you get up from in the morning on any given day. What is sad though is that cis people in general need to see a clear cut identity portrayed to be accepted by them... We are all a mixture of male and female to a greater or lesser extent, just keep that in mind to.
but it is the rare moments of beauty and peace
in between the chaos,
That makes it worth living."
- Tertia Hill
No Pity Party
I've studied College level Psychology and find myself to be twisted, but not dangerous, perhaps owing to bizarre experiences growing up. I confuse pain with affection, and that is not easy to fix. I don't trust anymore. I'm XXY and a bunch of other stuff.
I did transition the whole way, did all the stuff, and pass almost all the time. However the losses made it not worth it.
I'm 72, so I'll not detransition. I did try more than once but they thought I was a butch lesbian. I live all the time as a woman.
Without the drama, I find the 4 gender, two spirit of the Native Americans to be a better explanation than simply transgender. What others do is their path.
I won't likely tell anyone else about this change. Most can't comprehend it.
Very few of us...
... going throw the TG experience ever fully trust. It is rare to stumble upon cis people that can truly understand and comprehend this journey. And they are not to blame because this is not their experience.
I myself can attest and agree with the fact that I myself am extremely twisted. I have a darkness in me that border on psychopathy. After all the shit that has happened to me in life, I have isolated myself from most 'normal' people. There are really only 5 people who know the heart behind the persona that is Sam. In recent times I will have to say there is one more, but she herself is part of the TG community. I have never gone for the tests, but I always have felt that there is a degree of intersexed genetics in my body. Even though I am quite big, I never developed an Adamsapple like other genetic males. My breasts also started to develop when I was around 17, and aided with hormone treatment, I ended up with 42DD natural breasts.
In the end, YOU truly have to feel comfortable within your own self. I can not say for sure, but I think there must be a lot of TG post-op people who always experience doubts about their outward appearance and gender-specific presentation, especially if one transitioned later in life and had to fight an extremely male-defined body. I think people who say otherwise only lie to themselves.
I could never go back to be in that in-between space, neither this nor that. That was the most soul destroying part of my life, and it lasted for quite a while. Very much from the middle of 1995 to about 2000 as I slowly transitioned.
I do believe that you are right in saying the Two Spirit explanation might be more apt for most TG people, but in the end, most people I think, need to define themselves as either one or the other, even for people who would choose a non-binary gender system, that system still fucks us over.
I am going quote a poem here it might not be totally apt but read it and see what it does for you...
Therefor then:
Are we not
in all respects
our own creations?
Are we not
who we force
ourselves to become?
Our fears
are all self-inflicted
Our dreams
are all self-engineered
Our insanities
are all self-imposed
To become ourselves
is a choice
To leave behind
to let go
to pick up
The guilt that binds us
the fear that kills us
the peace that saves us
and our emptiness.
(from my book Pen on a Dirt Road - 2002)
You do know that you are not alone. Remember that others ponder these same questions more often than you would imagine.
but it is the rare moments of beauty and peace
in between the chaos,
That makes it worth living."
- Tertia Hill
Native American Two Spirit
The way the Navajo, and Nez Perce describe it is that there is Male, Female, Female Male, and Male Female. I see myself privately as a male with a strong female spirit and live as a female all the time. Outsiders hear that I am female. I have two close friends, one here in town and one in Upstate New York. My youngest daughter has after 14 years started talking to me again, not that she avoided me, but there were people in her life that prevented her from reaching out.
My privately held spiritual beliefs have been a great support to me, but they are private.
Isn't it logical
that there are 4 basic types, male, feminine male, female and masculine female. Some characteristics change as we go through teenage years and then later in life. Are their stages of our body aging process where we are more vulnerable to changes. Added to that the effects of the food we eat, additives, environment and medicines we may take. So many variables yet we are all born with a brain after which the body develops.
The body is probably more influenced by genetics than the brain so a female brain might develop more of a masculine body and vice versa.
Is the spirit just the signal or message from the brain telling the body how to function and being influenced by information it receives?
The brain is a remarkable creation attached to a fantastic machine that can be adjusted to varying degrees that may satisfy the brain or frustrate it as outside influences react to what it has decided to do to 'fit in' or moreso to feel right.
I've no idea really. Especially about what happens when the brain gives in whether or not the spirit looks for another location or goes back in line awaiting the next opportunity to be part of something that lives and breaths.
I fear we'll never know the answer as human beings. So better to try to adjust if that is what the brain thinks is best but it might be a long queue before the next chance comes along.
Here is a song rather than a poem:-
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk
I'm a woman's man, no time to talk
Music loud and women warm, I've been kicked around
Since I was born
And now it's alright, it's okay
And you may look the other way
We can try to understand
The New York Times' effect on man
Whether you're a brother or whether you're a mother
You're stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Feel the city breakin' and everybody shakin'
And we're stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive
Well now, I get low and I get high
And if I can't get either, I really try
Got the wings of heaven on my shoes
I'm a dancin' man and I just can't lose
You know it's alright, it's okay
I'll live to see another day
We can try to understand
The New York Times' effect on man
Whether you're a brother or whether you're a mother
You're stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Feel the city breakin' and everybody shakin'
And we're stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive
Life goin' nowhere, somebody help me
Somebody help me, yeah
Life goin' nowhere, somebody help me, yeah
I'm stayin' alive
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk
I'm a woman's man, no time to talk
Music loud and women warm
I've been kicked around since I was born
And now it's all right, it's okay
And you may look the other way
We can try to understand
The New York Times' effect on man
Whether you're a brother or whether you're a mother
You're stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Feel the city breakin' and everybody shakin'
And we're stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive, stayin' alive
Ah, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive
Life goin' nowhere, somebody help me
Somebody help me, yeah
Life goin' nowhere, somebody help me, yeah
I'm stayin' alive
Life goin' nowhere, somebody help me
Somebody help me, yeah
Life goin' nowhere, somebody help me, yeah
I'm stayin' alive
Life goin' nowhere, somebody help me
Somebody help me, yeah
Life goin' nowhere, somebody help me, yeah
I'm stayin' alive
Life goin' nowhere, somebody help me
Somebody help me, yeah
Life goin' nowhere, somebody help me, yeah
I'm stayin' alive
Out of their depth ...
With "friends" like that, you have enough enemies!
Your acquaintance seems clearly out of their depth and needs to be reminded such and to be avoided in the future (if that is possible). Some folks are just not healthy to be around! I wonder why he/she thought such a comment was appropriate. :(
Are you sufficiently confrontational to do an "Ann Landers" (or was it "Dear Abby"?) and, point blank, ask him/her, "Why in the world would you make such a damaging personal comment?" or, if you are really "on your game," ask, "Why ever would you think yourself competent to make such a damaging personal comment?" Then glare at them a few seconds before turning your back on them. Can you "flounce?"
If you can't swing one of those, try, "Whyever would you think that such a hurtful comment was appropriate?"
You have already demonstrated the appropriateness of the mantra, "I am an amazing person. I am worthy! Life is my due."
Hugs,
Sara
Sara
Between the wrinkles, the orthopedic shoes, and nine decades of gravity, it is really hard to be alluring. My icon, you ask? It is the last picture I allowed to escape the camera ... back before most BC authors were born.
What a Bitch
Sounds to me like this 'expert' had an agenda and aimed to hurt you and make you feel bad.
'Small minds can't comprehend Big Spirits.To be great you have to be willing to be mocked, hated and misunderstood.'
Just stay strong because this woman is definitely small minded and jealous. She probably picked on you thinking you were an easy target just to try to appear big and superior.
I often found dinner parties brought out the worst in people. Often it's jealousy and sometimes it's the wine. I was taught good manners and respect when I was young. Not everybody has that education.
I think you are right about two spirits and you had some good comments. In my opinion it is not something restricted to one tribe it fits some people in all our tribes.
I am a high suicide risk
and I know it. I will try very hard never to act on my feelings.Becoming a woman is one of the things keeping me alive, That and regaining most of my mental competence after my brain bleed of a stroke, I my be in a wheel chair for the rest of my life, I accept that. Nothing stops me from exercising and living my life except me. I will continue to try to be independent and regain my lost faculties,such as my left arm and my leg. I also find the two spirit mem very comforting.