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Okay, this is my first entry, and frankly I probably wouldn't have gotten around to it had it not been for some recent events which I'm having some difficulties with. With that said, let's proceed...
Has the entire world just gone nuts lately? We are all here for a similar reason, that being that we have something...specifially some version of gender issues...in common, right? We are a community, and I was raised to believe that meant we care for each other, not tear each other apart. So why is it that every time I turn around, someone or another is making comments to authors, telling them how they should write their stories? This is a simple concept, people. The person doing the writing, in all likelihood writes their story a certain way for a reason. Simply put, that's how they see things happening, period. For someone reading to come along after the fact and start complaining because something isn't to their liking is beyond ridiculous.
If you don't like the story, and you have a specific reason for that, I'm not saying you shouldn't share your thoughts. Saying, "_____ is what I have a problem with, and here's why" is constructive, up to a point. But when those comments become personal attacks, then they have long since ceased to be constructive in any way, shape, or form.
Lately we've been witness to several events where the stories stopped being critiqued, and the authors started being the ones torn apart. This is wrong, and it needs to stop. I'm really not naive enough to sit here and say, "Why can't we all just get along?" But when these comments push someone to the point where they no longer want to write, that's wrong, plain and simple. Writing is for a lot of people an important way for them to express themselves, and bringing about a situation where they no longer want to express themselves is wrong in my book.
There was the flack with Darla Raspberry, and thankfully she did return with more of her story, despite the berating she had taken over certain minor elements of her story. And now today, we have the announcement that Maddy Bell is going to stop writing Gaby because of all the comments trying to tell her what she should do next in her story. People, wake up a moment, will you? It's HER story. If she decides that her main character is going to dye her hair orange, or sprout wings, or whatever, it's her decision. We can comment on how well or poorly we thing it's written, but it's not our place to tell her what should happen next.
Things have happened in stories that I didn't care for, to be sure. But that's the way the story went. It wasn't for me to go screaming, "NO! You can't do that!!" or some such. If I like the overall storyline or think it's well written, then I just take the unsavory elements as an aspect of the reality that I don't like and move on. I can then decide whether or not to continue reading. It would never have occurred to me to write to an author to tell them they couldn't have their characters do or not do something.
Most of the writers whose stories are found here, and on other similar sites, create them as a way of expressing themselves and in particular certain aspects of their personalities. So to try and tell them they can or can't have characters of their own creation do or say certain things smacks of censorship, and I hope we can all at least agree that is a bad thing.
Earlier, I said I'm not naive enough to say "Can't we all just get along?" Well, maybe I am after all.
Comments
Way to go.
I agree with you about the censorship probelm. We all here have probably been through some problems with intolerance at one time or another. Let's not treat each other in the same way.
YAWWWNNN
An author who sets up her own website and publishes her stories on quite a number of others -- will get comments.
The Gaby saga requires an extensive time investment to read. When people invest, they take ownership.
When an author invites comments and people take ownership the readers are likely to make pointed suggestions.
Is quitting a reasoned response to those suggestions? If, in fact the suggestions are as harmless as suggesting potential plot lines, scenes, or characterization, I don't think so.
Getting along demands give and take. On the "take" side I would refer you to Harry S. Truman and suggest the kitchen door.
Yes, we all have to be nice, but getting along requires two and setting an impossible standard of behavior for others isn't helpful. We all have big feet, so keep your eggs off the floor.
If someone took the time to write a comment about one of my stories and suggested future ideas, I would smile at their thoughtfulness, consider the ideas, and probably never use them -- unless I did a rewrite.
The TG community is up to its eyeballs in over-bloated never-ended sagas. I wish every author would consider the short story and forget about writing the Great American TG Novel.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll go back to finishing the writing of my latest novel.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Close your mouth, dear
In this case as in several others, the comments had gone too far. One person had the gall to accuse Maddy of having deceived and mislead her for 140 chapters because of the direction the story appeared to be going. And the funny thing is, the story didn't go in that direction.
Many of us have become quite taken with Maddy's characters, so if Maddy is guilty of writing the Great American (or British, or Australian)TG Novel, it's because we encouraged her to.
Hope your novel is doing well!
Hugs!
Karen J.
"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin
In Response
I don't dispute that what you say is true, but it seems to me that with increasing frequency, some members of the community have gone from commenting about a story to commenting, sometimes to the point of attacking, about the author. That's the line that shouldn't be crossed.
Never let it be said that I don't enjoy the occasional delusion of grandeur
Never let it be said that I don't enjoy the occasional delusion of grandeur
I Walk The Line
Authors pour themselves into the stories they write. In most instances when you comment on the story you are inherently commenting on the author.
As an author who has been hurt by comments, I appreciate your sentiment, but to me the worse response a reader can give is -- no response. Most choose that route.
Your post may convince one or two that the line isn't worth walking, so why bother. I know that I've cut back on my comments lately, because I fear stepping on wounded doves.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Oh Baby!
You can step on my dove anytime Angela! Oh, it hurts so good to be so bad! Damn it Janet, another cliche!
Gwennie
Gwen Lavyril
Gwen Lavyril
Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense
I have a number of stories on other sites and I'm working on my first post for this site. I agree with whoever said, "I don't care what they say about me, as long as they get my name right." At least for me as an author, the thing that makes me most likely to stop writing or at least not finish a serial is apathy. The purpose of writing is to be provocative. Maybe you don't like the genre, maybe you don't like the style, maybe you don't like the treatment, but at least I've moved you enough to express your feelings. That's a good thing to my way of thinking. I am not saying that I am always in agreement with the comments I receive, IMHO, some are really stupid, so I ignore them, some are complimentary, because I deserve them, some are helpful, so I use them, and a few are just nasty, which I take as petty jelousy and therefore actually a compliment.
As to the Darla bashing, she and I are friends. In fact, she is the one who brought me here. As a writer, she should expect that certain topics are going to push some people's buttons and either not do it or expect to take flack from those who are incensed. As I said, controversy is a writer's stock in trade and, to mix metaphors, if you can't stand the heat, don't write. To Darla's credit, she has continued the story and, from the last episode of her second book, she is holding her ground. You go girl! To quote sombebody or other, Daniel Webster or Clarence Darow come to mind, "Give me liberty or give me meth." Ooops no, that was Nathan Hale tripping out. "I oppose what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Three cheers for Darla and the red, white and whatever.
Take it or leave it
I have a fairly pragmatic view of putting your writing out there and the getting of comments. As an author, I can write what I want. It's my story and it's my prerogative to write it as I choose.
As a reader it's your decision whether you read it or not. If you do read it, it's up to you if you comment or not. If you do comment, you are free to say what you like. You can tear the story to shreds, you can rubbish it, you can say what you want about me.
And as a receiver of comments, I can choose to read them or not. I can choose to accept their validity or not. I can laugh at the occasional asshole whose comments reflect more of their own idiocy than deficiencies in my story - and I can choose to see it that way. I can also shrug, grin and bear it. I can forget it. I can sleep at night. I can keep writing.
The majority of people who comment, I don't know anything about. So, to be absolutely blunt about it, I don't have to care what they think or say. There are a few people in this community whose comments I cherish and who through personal contact have earned the right for me to take note of what they say. If they like my story, I am on top of the world. If they don't, I consider very carefully what they say and try to improve for the future.
Remember folks, being a woman doesn't mean we all have to have hissy fits all the time and tear each other's hair out. It's OK to be chilled too. ;)
That's simply my approach - it may not be yours and you may disagree about it. If so, that's fine. I don't mind. ;)
Jenny
People are people
... and sometimes can't resist making a story personal when they read it. Authors, some more than others, are leery of bad comments on their stories and wince or worse when they see their "baby" nailed to the wall. This is the dynamic authors and commentors work with. I try to leave any criticism in the literary realm, or maybe a mildly pungent remark when I know the author, but the line is not crystal clear.
Occasionally, a story makes moral judgements the reader doesn't care for, directly impacting their enjoyment. It's fine with me if the reader comments their displeasure with a moral aspect, especially if it's stated as an opinion. If it is stated as a fact, well, that's okay, but the author is free to judge its merits and possibly reply that they disagree, and why, but thanks for the opinion.
Comments that directly attack the "validity" of the story, should, perhaps, best be left to an email, but as long as they stay away from nasty personal labeling or hurling epithets, public comments should be borne without complaint, IMHO.
Sure, stories here are sometimes a catharsis, but often the reader doesn't know that. All they is know is that they liked the story, didn't like it, are indifferent to it, and possibly, why. Unless the reader knows the author, that's what they have to go by.
There will be misunderstandings, too. I've had a few myself, from both ides of the fence. Still, that's the way the system works, and to diminish comments to protect the author would be a travesty. Screw that "personal satisfaction" stuff; I haven't taken a survey, but I'd bet that feedback is the main driving force behind most authors - that and seeing their name (sort of) in print. :)
So keep those slings and arrows coming.
"... for truth, justice & the American way!"
Just for you, Erin
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
Morals?
People are people
new
Submitted by aardvark on Wed, 2006-09-20 18:31.
Occasionally, a story makes moral judgements the reader doesn't care for, directly impacting their enjoyment. It's fine with me if the reader comments their displeasure with a moral aspect, especially if it's stated as an opinion. If it is stated as a fact, well, that's okay, but the author is free to judge its merits and possibly reply that they disagree, and why, but thanks for the opinion.
****
You know Aardvark, I think what you're condoning and encouraging is precisely the problem. No, I don't think it's okay for people to voice their displeasure of a story based on their morals. That's the perfect time for a reader to make no comment at all.
A satanist who writes a devil of a story isn't writing it for the christian clique. And vice versa. I sincerely think that writers are writing first and foremost for themselves, and secondly for readers who share their interests. Anyone else is just crashing the party and isn't welcome.
Think about it. If a person is attacking a story's morals/virtues, his motivatations for doing so aren't litterary, therefore they would be unwelcome.
Story Example:
The 2 year old billygoat, tired of chewing tin cans and playing poker with the chikens, slipped into the farmer's house and made himself at home in the farmer's bedroom.
The billgoat bleated with glee as he saw and approached a dildo laying on the farmer's nightstand, though he'd never seen one and had nilly an idea of what to do with one.
Good comment:
Well I'm not seeing the TG element, but it is an original story.
Good comment:
Loved the story, but billygoats don't really bleat, that's sheep. And your grammar is attrocious.
Bad comment:
Great story but lose the billygoat. Stories about Animals with dildos are perverted and sick- definitely not sexy.
Bad comment:
The billygoat is only 2 years old and that's only 14 in dog years, so that's just plain sick.
Summary:
Peta people shouldn't read this author's stories and if they do, and they don't like the story then they should leave the story without making a comment.
Boy that was fun!
-sv
I see what you're saying
I see what you're saying, and perhaps it's my fault for not being clear enough. Obviously, you're right to say, why bother reading a story if the subject matter offends you? There are warnings everywhere.
Just to be absolutely clear, I'm not talking about *fill in your religious book here* thumping morality. It's idiotic to criticize a story on a TG site because you don't like the TG or gay content, and that is NOT what I'm referring to.
I was thinking of a situation where the main character took a particular action which, from the reader's POV, was immoral, and here I use the dictionary definition, "violating the principles of right and wrong", with NO religious, PC, or holier-than-thou context.
Consider the example where a boy guts his mother or beats a villain nearly to death for a relatively small offence. If this sort of activity makes the main character less palatable to the reader, and through that, makes the story less interesting, then I would describe that as a legitimate point to bring up with the author. For politeness' sake, I would phrase it as an opinion, otherwise it could be very easily viewed as an attack, which it may or may not be.
Ex: "When Theresa shot her father in the crotch for telling her to make dinner, I thought it was a bit much. After that, I couldn't quite imagine Theresa as a legitimate heroine. I lost my sympathy for her, and my interest in the story."
The important distinction I draw is, can you tie an event that impressed you as immoral (or anything else, for that matter) to a legitimate literary reason, such as the example above? If not, then you'd better remain continent.
To stir things up a bit, it is also possible under some circumstances, IMHO, to comment on the course a story took/is taking.
Ex: "I liked your story, but I've read that it is better for the main character to solve her own problems. Wouldn't it have been better to make the heroine rescue herself rather than have the state social workers show up unexpectedly to blow away the evil abuser?"
I see nothing wrong with that, and that is all I meant.
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
Billygoat
Don't leave me hanging. What happened to the Billygoat. Did it eat the dildo? Did the farmer catch it? The suspense is killing me.
Guest Reader 1299831 Q
Billiegoat
The billygoat was goatplugged and feminized with a ribbon on his tail. He now calls himself Billie. :)
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
I Find That This Trend is Truly Sad
.. If that is what happened. I know Darla's side, But I do not know Maddy Bell's. If what happened to her is true, I believe the reader's need to step back and reread what I wrote on my Darla Blog entry. The author should receive CONSTRUCTIVE comments, not demands on how the story should go. I dont think we are sophisticated enough for made-to-order tg fiction yet. Let the author express her/his interests in the story and help them in the writing. Not to the plot (unless its like really missing something like an unitentional splice).
Geez people!
Sephrena
Take it like a man, Girls?
Sorry, I am just a scamp...am I not?
If you do not feel that you have earned the "right" to comment upon other's you should feel free to pound upon my efforts. Oscar Wilde had it quite correct.... a paraphrase that amounted to, 'I don't care what they say as long as they talk about me'...I can deal with the ugly ones and nothing is worse than a silence...it's called death.
Now, who said I was dark?
Gwennie
Gwen Lavyril
Gwen Lavyril
agreement
I totaly agree with Jillian Marie.
I have anothe author friend who writes here and has had to turn off the comments due to hurtfull,berating and cruel comments by some readers,
We are a community that is supposed to love and care fopr each other.
Not tear ech other down,f you do want to comment that is your constitutional righ of free speach ,BUT lets be kind too.
Ok family lets be family nd not fight.
Love and warm kisses Bruce aka Lucinda
Bruce002
Couldn't resist this one
If comments are a disturbing trend, then we have lost it.
A 'community' requires 'communication', dear friends and acquaintances.
(Insert tired, shopworn and generally annoying metaphors here... "Can't stand the heat, get out of"...."...)
To paraphrase Harry Truman...if an author wants a friend, get a dog, they can't read...
Please, I implore you, do not calm down. The caterwauling and general dismay, to be shocked! shocked! to find out there are opinions beyond the syncophantic and Oprah like "feel good" variety are amusing and entertaining. Keep it up!
Personally, this place can be veiwed as a refuge or a crucible for writers. I wonder which one produces better writing? We all have our opinions, I suppose.
PS- love the quote, Gwennie, it's so you...
Slothrop, Stop & Think!
If you are always having punks tossing eggs on your house every day, wouldnt you get tired of it and close up shop ? A person can only take so much garbage from the same crowd. Every one has a limit. And no human is immune to the hurt sloughed upon them from others. If the commenters cannot restrain their voices from hateful things and domineering the author into doing their bidding, perhaps its best to lock comments off entirely.
Sephrena Miller
I see the light....or maybe the tunnel....
"Locking off" comments is the author's privilege. So what's the problem?
There are other responses to egg throwing than 'closing up shop', btw, like throwing chickens at the punks. Of course, they will just have more eggs then....ah the endless cycle of poultry violence!
Look
... We cant have commentors organizing and doing flaming assaults against authors in a coordinated effort at shutting down Tg fiction. We dont need violence as some here think will solve these problems. If some of you commenting in this blog are computer literate enough, assist the authors being attacked in getting ip address info from the perps (backtracking it and maintaining the real unmasked ip add), matching it to a real life address and contact private investigators or police to serveil them and see if more are involved. Thats action. Shut them down before they unnerve us all.
Sephrena
Ars Gratia Artis
Louis Mayer was right, "Art for Arts Sake." Mark Twain is one of the most celebrated American authors, but "Huck Finn" was villified by contemporary literary critics, because it did not conform to classic standards by using dialect and being about mundane activities of boys on the Mississippi River. It wasn't until the 20th century that Amrican authors like Hemingway recognized Twain's unique style as the first truly American genre. The same is true of the French Impressionists. The were called the "fauves" - the crazy ones - by their peers, ridiculed and ostracized by traditional artists, because of their bold pallets and stylized renditions. If Van Gogh or Gaugan or the others had been deterred, the world would be much poorer for it. I am not suggesting that my writing or Darla's or anyone here is of that caliber, then again, maybe the great American TG novel or short story will appear here first. The point is, as I tried to make earlier, controversy is inherent in art. If you are a writer, then you should write for the sake of writing, not because someone loves or hates or ignores your work. Certainly we all like compliments and we all dislike criticism, and it would be nice if this was a kinder, gentler world, but that isn't what should motivate us to write or stop us from writing.
Since when is it censorship ....
to have an opinion... I don't stand behind an author and tell them what to write. There are stories I like, there are stories i hate, there are parts of stories or character actions that don't ring true or seem to be out of character for the plot previously provided.
I dont ever say "you were wrong to do this" but i would and have said "this seems out of place given what has happened in the story before and/or after this" whatever "this" happens to be is not an attack on the author nor on the story as a whole.
Comments about what a reader may have expected after reading some number of chapters is a bad thing ??? Even saying what a reader may like to see is not an inditement of the author. The story is still the property of the authors mind's eye. Nothing will change that.
I can see how comments from those of us that are not as good with the written word could be considered as a personal attack. I suggest that would almost never be the case.
And just what does a "hurtfull,berating and cruel " comment look like?? Will you be hurt when I say you spelled it wrong and didn't place a space after the comma? I hope not... If it means a personal attack like "As an author --someones name-- really sucks and no one should be subjected to this tripe" I don't believe i've ever seen one like that. Especially here. It would be wrong to do so.
Comments about someone's work and vision could be hard to digest but please read them several times to see if there is animosity behind the words. I doubt that in 999 of 1000 times you'd find that an attack as is described by previous posts in this thread is the true message.
Okay to Say -
To some up the essence -
Those in the bleachers seem to think the authors need to be prompted to greater heights through constructive criticism, which would include the gray area material in question.
Those sitting in the front row behind the catcher would have us restrict our remarks to:
a.) Omigosh, I cried my eyes out.
b.) Omigosh, your writing makes me so hot.
c.) Omigosh, write more . . . faster.
I concur with Jenny Walker.
My guess is JK Rowlings receives buckets of hate mail from those who know exactly what Harry Potter should have done. My further guess is she knows exactly what to do with that mail.
Unfortunately this discussion has centered around Maddy Bell and Gaby. Gaby is an unforgettable character. I'm sure no one here wants to be critical of that effort. My discussion of this issue is not personally directed at "Gaby" or its author.
I absolutely hated the way Jenny Walker ended "No Half Measures." Yet I think it is one of the best stories (if not the best) on these sites and am pleased to have Jenny as a friend. I didn't like the way Crystal took her "Texas Gal" but that didn't diminish the quality of the effort.
As my old coach said, "If you want the name and the fame you have to be willing to play the game."
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Comments
Be it as it may, it has gone to far!
Time to turn off the comments at all the sites until people grow up!
Ellen did at her site.
Now It looks like GabyZone is going down hill because of "COMMENTS" that are made by people with-out engaging their brains! You know who you are.
As for me, I'm a Maddy Bell, supporter I and have enjoyed Gaby from the start! I hope & pray that Maddy dosen't quit writing.
People keep acting like its there, "God given right to hack an author to bits when they don't even have the talent to rub 2 sticks together and make fire!"
Yuppers I'm pissed off.
To coin a fraze from a movie; "I'm mad as Hell and I'm not going to take it anymore."
"We" are not amused!
So, let it be written
So, let it Be Done!!
(Yul Bryner)
P.S. Angel you didn't do it, So don't blame yourself Sis. "Huggels"
Turning off comments
> Ellen did at her site
Actually it was my impression they got turned off because of comment-spam, pending a more technical/automated way to filter that out. Discussion of Tuck is relatively rife over at the Tuckerspawn forums, and Ellen reads and occasionally replies there.
> People keep acting like its there, "God given right to
> hack an author to bits when they don't even have the talent
> to rub 2 sticks together and make fire!"
There's a saying (with which I don't personally agree, but find it irresistible nonetheless):
"Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach become critics."
And a quote from a track by Art Of Noise:
"Debussy understood that a work of art or an effort to create beauty was always regarded by some people as a personal attack."
Let's Try This One More Time
It was not my intent to say nobody should ever leave a negative comment about a story. What I was trying to get at is that there has been a wave of people making hurtful personal comments about the author, which to me is different from saying something about a work in question.
The whole Maddy Bell thing is what prompted my post here today. There are several of us who have been "regulars" at Gabyzone who have a pretty good idea about at least a couple of the commenters who have prompted Maddy's announcement that she's no longer going to write Gaby. Some of the comments they had posted in the forums went way beyond literary criticism, and were to say the least, out of line. This kind of personal attack is what we don't need.
As someone who's first, and so far only effort as a fiction writer has been a Gaby fanfic, which has been tied very closely to Maddy's own story, I was extremely saddened by her decision. I hope that once she has a little time to decompress, she'll change her mind and at least finish the book she's currently working on.
It's a writer's 'job' to accept criticism of their work, and either take it to heart or ignore it. But when it turns to berating the writer rather than the work, I think that's out of line. Maybe I'm too thin skinned, but I'd like to think that readers should be able to separate the writing from the writer.
Never let it be said that I don't enjoy the occasional delusion of grandeur
Never let it be said that I don't enjoy the occasional delusion of grandeur
Simple!
Authors: If you feel that you are unable to take comments from readers, with a pinch of salt. Don't publish on a public forum.
Readers: If you enjoy reading stories posted on a public forum and want to continue reading them think about what you say when being critical.
I for one stopped reading the canon Gaby stories when they left the track I was enjoying, I much prefered Crossing The Line (a fanfic) as that dealt more with Gaby/Drew in a familiar situation.
Actually I've stopped reading lots of serials becasue the subject/storyline deviated from what I liked. I didn't write messages of protest to the various authors, anymore than I would to a paper/print author if they killed off a well loved character.
But rest assured if J K Rowling does kill HP off in the last book as some suspect (I do anyway) she'll recieve hate mail and probably death threats. (Not from me though.)
And for the record in TG terms I by far prefer serials to short stories, as most shorts don't close well, the protaganist faces an uncertain future... or no future but with the story done we'll never find out how it works. I follow Tuck (religeously) and a couple of others (some are not being updated that I know of. Fairy King & Kelly Girl to name two (I mean that I follow))...
Where does this inane babble end? (mine) Here, each author has to make their own decision, but as I've said before and to not mix metaphors ;) If they can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen!
-edit- Sorry missed this on first read.
"It's a writer's 'job' to accept criticism of their work, and either take it to heart or ignore it. But when it turns to berating the writer rather than the work, I think that's out of line. Maybe I'm too thin skinned, but I'd like to think that readers should be able to separate the writing from the writer."
Have to disagree with this, the writers 'job' is to write. If you write in a vacum you won't improve as you'll not know what others think but you can still do so. I for one welcome any form of criticism... but i'll get to the point of saying if you really don't like what I'm writing read something else.
A good IMHO author of any type should be able to handle negative comments, either by ignoring them or by laughing them off. And be able to winnow out the constructive criticism then learn from it. Its debatable as to wether I'm a good writer (I like to think I am ;)) or not. But I know how to do the above.
The Legendary Lost Ninja
Success After All
Okay everyone. My intent in posting this in the first place was to get people thinking about what they post as comments. It would appear that I must have hit a nerve, as their seem to be a lot of people with strong opinions on the subject. Good. Now, all I would like to add in conclusion is that I think commenters should think before they write. Does what you're saying address something in the story that could be improved? Or is it saying something about the writer? If you really think being mean to another person is the way to go, fine. But if your intent is to suggest something in the story you think should be better, then please be sure your comment is worded in such a way that it achieves that goal. I'm done now.
Never let it be said that I don't enjoy the occasional delusion of grandeur
Never let it be said that I don't enjoy the occasional delusion of grandeur
Any press is good press ...
For myself, I'd rather have a reaction of some sort, be it positive or negative, rather than a sullen silence.
Feedback lets me know someone is reading, and that they're engaged enough to take time to say "I read this, and I think ..."
At times it may not make much sense to the author, and I offer the example of the individual at Sapphire's that complained about 'Amazon' being 'too religious.' Perhaps to them it might be true, but on the other hand it wasn't like I hadn't made the thread clear.
Authors have a responsibility to play fair with the reader -- and as an aside, I believe Maddy has done so -- but not necessarily a responsibility to set aside the story they've set themselves to placate a commenter. I'm as much of a fan of feedback as anyone, and take the constructive comments, positive or negative, seriously as an indicator of how well I'm communicating.
A thick skin never hurts in a situation like this though.
Nicole (a.k.a. Itinerant)
--
Veni, Vidi, Velcro:
I came, I saw, I stuck around.
Walking the line
Authors stradle a schizophrenic line between absurd self-confidence and soul-rending self-doubt. This is a good thing: the confidence is necessary to actually write and publish, and the doubt enables the author to improve. It's when these two extremes get all mixed up--or the author tips too far over to one side--that it goes all wrong.
To actually write a story through to its conclusion? And then share it with the world, and actually think anyone cares? That you're saying something new? The delusional belief that 'everyone has a story to tell'? Such hubris! Such pride! Yet apparantly this confidence is rampant: dozens of new books hit the shelves every week, and many times that hit the digital forums daily.
For all this confidence, authors remain deeply neurotic creatures. They thrive off of feedback--and I find it difficult to buy claims to the opposite. (If it was true that we wrote simply because 'the story needed to get out' then it wouldn't matter if anyone read it or not; there'd be no impetus to publish or share. I know damn well that when the feedback dries up, so will my desire to write.) Having provided a glimpse into themselves through their fiction, an author remains vulnerable. Unfortunately, that vulnerability is the only route to improvement. No parent looks at their newborn child and think, "I made this! But the nose is wrong...," but writers do; they have to.
When confidence overwhelms that vulnerability, the authors stops to grow. That's not necessarily a problem if further development isn't a concern, but perhaps they should make it clear to their readers what they want: recognition that the story is actually being read, but further criticism of the writing is not necessary.
And when doubt rises high, the author simply vanishes. No more writing, no more posting. Maybe they genuinely weren't very good and couldn't be bothered with the effort required to improve. Or maybe they just needed some time to step back, heal and recover, and dive back in. I've been there; I suspect most of the writers here have at some point.
Well, that's my pretentiously meandering take on it. I've been lucky, I suppose: I haven't had any of the problems mentioned in the initial post. A few readers have pointed out aspects of the story that has led them to stop reading. I can respect that, though I'm saddened by their departure. I've asked for storyline suggestions / plot possibilities I may have not considered, and received only one (very detailed and well written!) response.
Ultimately, I'm simply neurotically pleased at every comment I receive. Everytime I sit at my keyboard I straddle the line between believing I'm a mediocre-at-best writer, wondering why I'm wasting my time on this crap and nearly tossing it aside; to thinking that, yeah dammit, I'm good, and believing all the positive feedback. It's a delicate mental balance, but hell, I've held it for 100K+ words and I don't see any reason to stop now.
-F.
PS. I disagree with one point of the original post: "We are all here for a similar reason, that being that we have omething...specifially some version of gender issues...in common, right?" That's a big assumption to make, no? I'm neither gay nor transgendered nor a transvestite. Maybe I'm just so deeply in that particular closet I'm about to pop out in Narnia. Maybe, but I'm fairly sure I simply like to write, that this (and FM, and storysite) are good venues, and that I find gender issues fascinating (ever since my first Jack Chalker novel, I suspect) and fertile ground for the imagination. TG-fiction characters are their own walking subversive conflicts! Spinning a story out of that basic premise is fun and easy and always interesting--and sometimes just a wee bit sexy as well.
Walking the line. . .right out the door
I'm reminded of the stories, probably apocryphal, of guitars buried in Nashville backyards. . .
I think it's a shame when artists quit. FM is right about the role doubt plays in making writers dissappear. One thing a very wize professor taught me is that mean spirited criticism is a sure fire way of killing the creative drive of beginning writers. It's pretty easy to do simply because they're beginners (my prof. likened it to
kicking a puppy). This is not true for professionals. Professionals have had enough bad gigs to develop a bit thicker skin. But they've also had enough success to know just how good they are. So, when someone dumps on them, they know it's just part of the deal. But a lot of beginners never write again when this happens.
By definition, the writers who contribute transgendered fiction are amateurs. Some (bias freely admitted), like Fakeminsk and Randalynn, are very, very talented but I presume they are amateurs simply because they are here. Pros don't come here simply because there aren't a lot of rewards---there's no money to be made and certainly no fame to come from writing about "K giving David D-cup boobs" . . .(sorry, FM I just couldn't resist. . GRIN). When people submit a story here or elsewhere you can bet they've done the best they could. I've read lots of stories that are pretty rough or just downright wacky. But they were all offered for free by people who, maybe for the first time in their whole lives, were trying to tell their story. Those stories, good and not so good, deserve respect. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be criticized.
My prof. also said that we grow from constructive criticism, even if it's painful. So, if someone asks for comments on their story and it just doesn't hang together, I think it's perfectly in order to tell 'em what you think. Learning to take that kind of criticism is part of becoming a professional. That's about the only way artists can conquer their doubt and become better. I've yet to meet (except for a couple of histrionic divas---long story) an accomplished artist (writer, musician, actor, painter, you name 'em) who couldn't handle an honest appraisal of their work.
To tell the truth, I never really got into the Gabby epoch. But a lot of people did and I respect it for that. Maddy obviously created a genuine 'net classic. To quit because she has nothing more to say is one thing, but to quit because the comments of others caused her doubt the validity of years of hard work is not only mean, it's also resoundingly unfair.
FM is right about writers needing feedback. Every artist does. That can come as applause, royalties, mouse clicks, and/or emails. For me constructive commentary means that I get to talk to someone who's good about something they do well: that's fun. Honestly, I probably don't do that as much as I ought to or as much as I intend to because that kind of writing takes time.
I don't think I can compete with all the cheap shots, but I think I'll try to talk to writers more than I have in the past.
Kate_Blanik
Talented? *blush*
Thank you, Kate, for the compliment. I am actually a professional writer, but I make my living as a freelance copywriter and marketing consultant -- writing ads, brochures, case studies, presentations, white papers, web sites, or whatever my clients need. I have a screenplay kicking around Hollywood now, and I'm currently working on a novel (two, if you count what No Obligation has grown into *grins*), but working on something as large as a novel means long periods of time without any feedback at all. Since I have a very vocal "self-doubt" demon living in the back of my mind to keep me honest, I need a reality check once in a while to remind me I actually CAN write fiction. So the work here and the comments it prompts keep me going -- not just on No Obligation but on my outside writing as well.
Part of working as an advertising and marketing writer is learning that whatever you write is going to be edited (and sometimes horribly trashed), not only by your copy chief and creative director but also by clients -- often people who can't write, or they wouldn't have hired you. Since I'm essentially writing FOR them, whatever I do has to meet with their approval. It makes no sense to get proprietary about writing for hire, and I've learned how to accept the most horrific edits graciously. Instead, I work to give clients something that incorporates their edits but still reads well in the end.
I'm the first to admit that my fiction is different from my other work, and it should be, because it's mine. *grins* Still, some of the attitude from my copywriting career has affected how I view comments to my stories. I've discovered the value of another set of eyes, because they see things I may have missed and question some of the choices I've made that define my characters. If they're confused about something, it means I haven't done my job right. If they see a character in a different light from what I intended, I've lost my way somehow.
I guess I'm thankful for all comments, good and bad, since it means people are reading and care enough to tell me so. And if comments descend to the pre-school level of personal attacks, I give them just the weight they deserve and move on. When it comes to comments I make, I freely admit that sometiimes they're emotionally driven -- probably because I have a different view of what characters in general are or should be to a writer. But they're sometimes legitimate concerns about where a story could have been re-directed -- where a character and her choices could be tweaked to make a story richer and deeper.
I'm committed to writing, and I know I'll finish every serial I start and publish, because my characters will not stay silent. They will howl until their stories are told, because that's what my characters do. And I'll keep looking for comments, because they keep me honest as a writer -- no matter what the commenter says, there's almost always something of value to be taken away.
*hugs tight* Thanks for reading!!
Randalynn
"Certainly the game is rigged. Don't let that stop you.
If you don't bet, you can't win." -- Robert A. Heinlein
Randalynn. . .
Perhaps my use of "professional" wasn't the best word choice. I used the word basically to delineate between writers who can handle rough criticism and those who can't. Taking someone who is just starting out, who is perhaps a little insecure about their skills, and absolutely shredding their work is just devestating. But this sort of thing seems to happen to all performers, not just writers, all the time. I once saw a young musician reduced to tears when her maestro attacked her in the middle of a master class. The guy was a notoriously neurotic SOB who was subject to mood swings, but she
didn't know that. Fortunately, she was a ranch kid and knew The Rule about what to do when you get "throwed." But those words hurt and it took her awhile to regain her confidence.
For what it's worth I've always earned my living by writing, too. In fact, at various points in the series of occupational misadventures I laughingly call "my career," I did some of the same things you mention. Judging from the obvious creative skills revealed in your stories here I have no doubt, however, that you are infinitely more successful than I was. Still it was fun and, as everyone knows, the world's best looking, best turned out women work in advertising. I fear I tarried, perhaps overlong, there because of that. (GRIN) Unlike you, I can't write narratives for beans.
I understand your point about the self doubt demon. I think we all have that in one way or another. I've only known one writer who didn't have self doubts, but he was very, very special and I've never met anyone quite like him since. Good criticism, even if it is hard edged, is a great way to work around those demons because, as you say, it helps you see things would might have missed. Mean spirited comments, however, can do just the opposite.
I have to tell you (gush, gush!!) I'm a HUGE fan of yours! When I read the first Stark story, I found it nothing short of electrifying.
But what I like about all of your stories is that, like Stark, you put all of your characters on a road to self discovery. Along the way they may encounter wonders and terrors, but they're survivors and in surving they find an inner redemption and, one hopes, some peace.
Because of this, I think your stories are great metaphors for what it's like to be transgendered. I've known I was TG since I was quite young and, honestly, I still don't know if being this way is a great gift or a great curse. Sometimes I think it's both.
You've discovered a way to tap into the mystery and that makes for great story telling. I hope you'll stick around for awhile.
Kate_Blanik
The End
And in the End the LOVE that we have for Madeline Anne Bell and her creation of Gaby will continue till the end of time, even though we our-selfs will not!
Andrew Gaby Bond, Rest in peace.
For we will, miss you (not knowing how you turned out) and we will morn the withdrawl form the writing fields of your creator; Madeline Anne Bell.
May the lord ease her's and our feelings of pain!
"THE END"
"We" are not amused!
So, let it be written
So, let it Be Done!!
(Yul Bryner)
The End of Gaby
.. After reading your statement Madelline, I am deeply saddened yet happy for you. Saddened that I will no longer enjoy new adventures or thoughts from your mind. I am happy for youat the same time as you must sense a relief of peace and might start find joy out of life. Your health and happiness take paramount over us your readers. I for one am glad and thank you for all you have given us so far from your mind. You are like a mother to us and even moms have to take a break from all their work. I only wish there was something that we as readers could do directly for you to show our appreciation of what you have meant us. All I can say is that we Love you Madelline Anne Bell! From the deepest depths of our soul and the bottom of our hearts - We love you!
Sephrena Miller
I quit
I quit commenting, chating, endoresing, reposting, Hell I just quit!
Time to be a "JAFO"
Good BYE !
"We" are not amused!
So, let it be written
So, let it Be Done!!
(Yul Bryner)
Sorry ChrisW... But
.... You arent allowed to quit. Writers Esprit De Corps and all the codied word of honor you swore to when you joined us forbids it. Once a Writer, always a writer. from the Shores of Diamond Head hawaii, the bogs of Loisianna, we will write our heartfelt words aloud for all the world to see! (and so forth to the Hymn of The Marine Corps Anthem).
Dont take anything personal. Stick together! we are a family! Talkto each other. Don't fight! seriously....
Please stay and dont be mad ChrisW ? please?
*hug*
Sephrena
"Quit, is not a word in my dictionary"
So I'm Back"
"We" are not amused!
So, let it be written
So, let it Be Done!!
(Yul Bryner)
Check those page numbers
Chris check the page numbers in your dictonary in the "Qs".
You may be missing one or more sheets. Demand a refund.
John snickering guiltily in Wauwatosa
John in Wauwatosa
Maddy Bell Has Been Convinced to Continue Writing
... as she has indicated here http://www.gabyzone.com/index.php?name=MDForum&file=viewtopi...
on her website at the bottom of the page.
My Oh MY, Jillian, You Stirred Up A Hornets Nest
But you did get the adventures of Maddy Belle to continue, That is great news, But you sure did cause a lot of reaction here.
May Your Light Forever Shine
OH, how I want to comment here! BUT, I better not...
Oh, the hell with it, here goes, short and simple...
If you see a comment that you know will hurt or one with one of the moronic religious themed comments, send off an email of support to the author of the story being flamed.
That will do more for them than any reply you post in rebuttal. Replying to those type of comments only invites more of the same and others will jump on the bandwagon making things worse.
I speak from experience here.
Huggles All
Angel
"Be Your-Self, So Easy to Say, So Hard to Live!"
Good news and thanks Angel
Nice to here Maddy has changed her mind. Hey, it doesn't hurt to blow off steam every once and a while.
Angel, your idea of a PM or e-mail to an author you feel needs support is a good idea. I do read the posts in responce to my silly stuff I "publish" here and I do respond most times, but the e-mails and PMs have much greater impact. I respect that someone has taken the time to think more deeply than just a quick comment.
John in Wauwatosa
John in Wauwatosa