There are problems with BigCloset and how it is structured and what kind of content it has.
There are a lot of bells and whistles here and lots of people love them. There are also all kinds of stories and some people love that and some don't.
Here's a thought -- Bob and I have come up with the idea of splitting TopShelf into two sites.
One would be BigCloset/Topshelf pretty much as it is with all the bells and whistles intact.
The spinoff second site would be simpler no blogs, no images, no voting but with the best search functions we can come up with. Lean and mean, so to speak. It would inherit some version of the stories already on BCTS as a starter and initially, the same user list. After that the two sites would go their own way.
We could encourage different sorts of story postings on each site, each different from the other. It seems obvious that there is a market for a TG-X-oriented site and a TG site that doesn't have X-rated stories. We're thinking that the new site would be more X-oriented and BCTS authors whose stories would be inherited by the site could login and remove them if they desired. Or if the feedback indicates it is a good idea, we can remove them before the spin-off.
Of course, it could work the other way with BCTS and we could make a restriction that you have to request access for X-oriented material here on BCTS. That can be done with the software as is.
Or we could do both things.
It's also possible to make new stories on the new website be uploads rather than being stored in the database file. This would allow some images without overloading the server.
Comments and discussion please?
Thanks,
-- Bob and Erin
i think i agree ...
... mostly.
erin, you're suggesting, above, a split between sexually-oriented and non-sexually-oriented; i think that nancy's division, if this needs to happen, is somewhat more apropos (and approximately in line with what another user, joanne206 i think, suggested).
that is, in my view the "incomers" are mostly looking for "rough", but "rough" may mean "violence" as often as "sex", perhaps even more often (this is a voice in the wilderness in the us, i'm afraid, where graphic depictions of torture are appropriate for teens but foreplay is forbidden). coercion, abuse ... "edgy".
where i don't entirely agree with nancy is "realistic" versus "not". i think it might be feasible to ask authors to self-categorize as "sweet" or "mainstream" versus "rough" or "adult". since i'm fairly sure that my definition of "realistic" might differ from nancy's, i think that, as a self-policing mechanism, it may fail (and the whole tagged-as-autobiography thing compounds the issue (sorry, one of my pet peeves; i automatically discount any story tagged "autobiographical" and go on to the next)).
as others have said, do what you think will work best. my recommendation: if you split, find a split that, on both sides, *attracts* both authors and readers. you already know this, of course, as you also have a mainstream fiction site, separate from topshelf, which i think is active and self-moderating, yes? determining the nature of the split—without pitching it as "good place, bad place"—is probably the key to success. i'd agree with nancy that "x" vs. "pg" ain't it; i'd tend more toward "adult" vs. "sweet", where sex is de-emphasized as the discriminator (sex can be sweet ... :-).
Amy!
(sorry, it's not an anti-caps-lock problem, it's a confidence problem; deal)
watch mission impossible
watch mission impossible rogue nation online
watch mission impossible rogue nation online
KISS
It is your site. You should do what you want. However, if you are taking recommendations, mine would be following the KISS principle. Keeping things simple and not over analyzing or over "improving" things is usually the best bet.
I do not mean to be impertinent, but why do you think it is necessary to split stories? Granted I may not like the tenor of some for personal reasons, but those I do not read. Still, it is a close and flexible line and I have enjoyed some that I thought I would not.
A second question, I realize that the comments allow authors to get some feedback on stories, and I guess the popularity contest of the votes do as well. How important is this to the function of the site? Could it be arranged differently to simplify?
Third, adding blogs to the comments seems kinda cumbersome, though I have enjoyed a few of those too, and have followed links to some interesting articles.
So, I dunno. I guess just try to keep well within KISS and let us know what you decide?
CaroL
CaroL
i agree
i think i have to agree with carol cause if YOU DONT LIKE A STORY THEN DONT READ IT CAUSE NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO READ A STORY AND IF YOU DONT LIKE IT THEN let it go and go find something you like. i dont comment usually cause their are to many people out there that want things their way and can take thing any different way. cause spliting the site in to two types or ratings would be like looking at the old R rated movies of the 80's and the PG-13 one these days every person out there has a different idea about whats what.
as for the second question i have to agree totally with carol on it
i think people need to remember an old saying and if they have never heard it then think about it
if you cant say anything nice then dont say anything at all. espeially when commenting on stories they might not like or even hate
well sorry erin about what i said here but i am sick of people being mean to other for no reason other then they can.
i think thats why their is not as many new authors as there could be cause i know i wont post anything story wise and have some one just be mean cause they did not like it
well till later maybe from sarav
Meh.
On my browser I keep flash, java, and anything animated turned off, and BC loads almost as fast as Crystal's, and when signed in I use a stripped-down view, too. I like the site as is, and I feel the search is robust enough already.
As far as ratings go, there's a big difference between a story with a few graphic sex scenes in it and 'stroke fiction'. If you set an X-net to catch one, though, you will invariably catch the other as well. BC tends to have quality work in all ratings, why risk it?
New Market
Erin,
I think the problem is that you are talking about trying to reach a new market, but most of the responses are coming from people who are very interested in the market you now reach. Not surprising really, but people are frightened that the current BCTS won't be there, in spite of your protestations that it won't change.
Personally, I love the BC that is too. And I'm glad it welcomes all kinds of stories, and for the kinds of discussions it engenders (usually - almost always)(Im one of the dust bunnies).
For what ever reason, and I don't think it was ever the intention, BCTS is known for non-explicite, non-fetish (non additional fetishes? - ie. bondage, age-regression, etc.) TG stories. Those stories are permitted here, and I think it should stay that way, but it is not the main fair here. Because of that some writers of "edgier" things do feel unwelcome, or ignored, or marginalized. I can think of two very good writers like that very quickly. And those that do post here, do draw negative comments because it is not the norm.
I prefer the stories that are prevalent here, myself, but don't mind an exotic taste now and then. What I think you have said is that BCTS would still be open to all, but the new site would be intended to draw the kinds of stories that don't appear here often. I like that idea. I think it is a way to give many more writers the advantages BC gives to writers. And I don't think it matters if Fictionmania comes back, or when Crystals begins new post, more sites are needed and will still be needed, and I also think that the format nicer for both writers and readers.
Now how do you open a new market? "Back Closet" "Locked Closet" "The Armoire"?
Seek Joy, Jan
As to a stripped down/less bells and whistles interface
My DLS was down for over a week and dialup is soooo slow.
What kills dialup is heavy graphics and animations. I know we have some readers/contributors here who still rely on dialup and having that alternative would be nice.
As to spliting the site by, say, story type I can't say one way or the other as I am really burned out from work tonight, but my DSL is back up Yeah!
John in Wauwatosa
John in Wauwatosa
My personal preference is to leave big closet as a big closet
Open for all types of stories. I don't read everything, and there are plenty I have no interest in, but I love that this is a big closet open for all kinds of TG stories.
Now Erin, if there are financial incentives for you to split the X-rated stories off, well you have to do what is best for you personally. We all owe you more then we can ever repay you for all the work that you put in here, and if there is something that makes it work better for you, then I'm ok with it.
Hugs,
Kristy
X-Rated
I don't care for them personally, but rather like Bob's approach, which addresses specific objectionable content and leaves the rest up to the authors who choose to post in a given forum.
It seems to me that FM (if and when it arises from the dead) has the X-rated thing down pat, so people who prefer them never have to see anything *other* than X-rated content if they like. ASSTR and Literotica (which has a TG section) have little aside from grotty stories, so there are plenty of opportunities for such things. Surely that's enough.
I personally would like to see registered users able to set their own limits, if limits are desired, just as television sets can be set to refuse to play certain types of content. With a database repository, one could set personal filters and massage the experience in any way one chose.
If one is sensitive to anything resembling pedophilic rape, or forced feminisation, or whatever, one could put a lid on it that way, and never have it appear before your eyes. This is the computer age -- why can't we choose the channels in the lineup?
I like the idea of a stripped-down version as well, and better granularity on the selection of user interface options, although I'm sure there's a point at which the overhead of providing low-bandwidth options exceeds the actual processor and serving cost of the default interface.
One thing that would be nice would be a simple list of story titles, so one could easily see what stories a given author had posted without a lengthy scroll through teasers and graphic images, which seem redundant (and bandwidth-intensive) in that sort of display. Something like the list of chapters that appears (by default) to the right of the story window would be sufficient, I think.
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Hmm?
I could actually do something very like what you ask for in the last para and have it up and working later tonight. That ain't that hard. One of the great things of using a database driven CMS with a flexible interface. Since it would only impact actual story views, it wouldn't even slow things much.
But that's moving directly away from what THIS discussion is about. :)
Anyway, all this talk has been worthwhile. Bob and I separately came up with pretty much the same idea and talked it around for a few hours before pinning it up here as a dartboard. :) All of the comments so far have helped us clarify just what is needed and what people want. Amazing what a thinking resource an active and involved community really is, isn't it?
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
spinoff (not a mirror)...
to handle the more risque ie (X) rated material...
This is beginning to sound a bit like France and some of their problems except in reverse.
I am N E W to this site, having come on board at the very end of October 2008. My first week was spent SOLELY in reading material already posted and getting a feel for the site. It that time I discovered I liked the ability to decide for myself what it was I wanted to read and what I wished to comment upon.
It was essentially a self policing approach both for reading and for posting. I seldom found material which I would consider X and in my opinion R when not specified in the information bar at the top of the post.
I was grateful and actually overjoyed to find such a site which was homey, fast and easy to use. Bob and Erin have spent many "blood sweat and tears" to keep it that way.
It is not possible to police someone who does not wish to be policed and as a result "children" who should not have access to certain material are still going to find and access it. An additional site for that sort of material will do nothing to stop that. The only thing it will do is prevent this site from garnering external policing into it's material which is presented for people to read.
There are many out there who believe (truely) that anything TG is X rated. That is a shame and they are extremely misinformed but they exist, so moving the X material will not change outside opinion.
Now... I wrote to Erin in a private communique shortly after discovering this site and not long after I began posting Air Force Sweetheart Volume I... I told her that this site was extremely different from the others I had found and upon which I had read stories. This site, as I told her, was like drinking a cup of hot chocolate with marshmallows, while sitting before a roaring fireplace and looking out the window at a snowy landscape while having a conversation with friends.
Keeping BC that way is important to me.
I detest politics and this has all the opportunities, even though well intended, of developing into a political rift.
Should that occur then the homey feeling will suddenly disappear and the odds are low that it could ever return.
If that were to happen I for one would rather pull my offerings and begin my hunt once more. It only took me fifteen years to find BC so I shall be about 80 when I find the next home.
If we are voting then I vote for no changes and simply mirroring down the road to help with server loading. Yes, I understand that is going to happen anyway.
Separating readers from authors is never a good thing. I have spent years with the hardbound (or paperback) publications and do not really know what my readers think as there is very little feedback from the paperbound crowd.
Nearly instantaneous comments to my chapters has granted me a much more responsive feel and is one of the things I dearly love about this site.
My vote would still be for the status quo but with additional support in serving up the lucious menus available through BC TS.
Teddi Dianne Aldoennetti
God Bless You All...
Which problem is more pressing?
Which problem is in greater need of solving, the architecture or the content?
If you are receiving direct or indirect feedback indicating that splitting the content would be beneficial to enough people of both preferences, then it seems a reasonable response. If the spin off site is housed on a separate server, it may make even more sense. Personally, I'm happy to have all the content together; however, it wouldn't bother me to have it broken out. In other words, I'm no help at all. :)
If the primary concern is the architecture, I'm not sure what splitting the content would accomplish, especially if the two sites are housed on the same server. It sounds from your posts that the primary choke point is database reads and sorts. If the data cannot be restructured (which sounds like a major undertaking), your efforts would probably be better spent on optimizing your queries and indices and moving to a more distributed architecture. A rough sketch would be a dedicated database server, a server that handles quick queries and the main user interface functions and a server that handles heavy sorts from larger queries. Ideally, the heavier queries would be constructed in such a way that they return a quick but slightly too large data set to the query server which then sorts the records there to keep the load off the database server.
Three servers would be a good solution
Unfortunately, it's beyond my means right now. :) Maybe someday, possibly as soon as 2010.
The spinoff site or the mirror or both would be located on a different server from BCTS, yes.
Other architecture/software rearrangements are not easily configured because BC runs free off the shelf software, not custom code. The advantage of this approach is that BC is still up and taking huge traffic hits, enough to cause the problems while the other three big TG sites have problems updating their custom code. There are things we can do and things we can do but aren't advisable given our resources. Writing our own database queries is one of those things that I could do but I won't because it isn't actually as smart as it sounds. :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Time and money
If only there were unlimited amounts of each. I agree that there is a fine line in regard to customization. A little can be nice but too much and you need a programming staff whenever you have to patch or upgrade. If the current growth continues, you might need a staff anyway. I suppose that falls under a good/bad problem to have.
A tupence
Erin, Having just been to England, here is my two pence...
I am one of your readers, I wish I had the talent to write, but..So I read. I have been reading TG fiction for as long as I could find it. I have bounced from site to site and now believe that I have found a home. I like the content that your authors post. Well for the most part. If I don't like the particular story, I just skip on to another. You offer such a great variety, there really is too much to attempt to read it all. I have found some favorite authors. I really, really enjoy this opportunity to have these conversations.
As for the future, I will follow my favorite authors. I hope to enlarge that circle as I discover new stories. I think that if you decide to create another site, that you let the authors self select where they post. And as for the features offered, well let us know about them, and then we will choose once again our favorite reading site. That is what I have done, and I suspect that everyone else has done the same.
I know you have created a beloved location for both authors and readers, as seen by the large number of comments posted in fewer than twenty four hours. For me please keep the Big Closet large, and when the servers begin to deliver a response time that is too slow, some will leave, and the rest of us will just be patient.
Hugs, Wendy Marie
Wendy Marie
Cozy Closet
Just had another thought...
Of course, I'm just guessing at what you're trying to accomplish, so I don't know how this might fit in.
If you're going for ad revenue on a softer site, then I would suggest this methodology:
Keep it in one place
For me the best would be to keep everything in one place.
and for thwe ones that dont like some kind of stories, why not place a filter that can be customized in our accounts. The flags already exist for the stories. Not to over do it, keep the selection not to big.
> Age (by categories)
> Voluntary or Forced
> Degre of sex (no, romantic, up to Very Explicit)
> lesbian, gay, hetero., other
In need of a clarification
I kinda let this one slide past me and it looks like I shouldn't have. As I understand this, if this is done then some of the work I have posted here would no longer be acceptable -- am I reading this right? The Big Closet is shrinking, and those who write stories with explicit content are to be banished to a new site with no 'bells and whistles'?
If that is the case then I am very much opposed to the idea. If that is not the case, please clarify it for me.
Scott
-- Moliere
Bree
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.
-- Tom Clancy
http://genomorph.tglibrary.com/ (Currently broken)
http://bree-ramsey314.livejournal.com/
Twitter: @genomorph
BigCloset doesn't change
The plan was to open a new site with fewer bells and whistles on the idea that it would attract more of the FM crowd. We've sort of dropped the idea since it doesn't seem to have been popular and led to a lot of confusion.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Pages