Am I the lone ranger on this issue? I don't notice it on this site, but it seems to appear often over on Fictionmania. Some where in the teaser or even sometimes in the title, the word "gurl" turns up in reference to trans women or trans girls. When I see that it's an automatic pass on the story because having to read that word throughout the story will set me in edge.
Somehow that word and a few others are a big turn off for me. I find it hard to articulate exactly why. There's just something too cutesy about it. Maybe even immature or disrespectful to trans women. It's as if they are made up creatures who have no basis in reality?
Am I nuts or just too sensitive or what?
Comments
Not alone
That, along with several other similar terms, has always been like chalk screeching on a blackboard. I have to add the term "Karen" as a derogatory noun, just kinda disturbs me on a personal level.
"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin
“Karen”
Couldn’t agree more re the usage of Karen. I have a sister in law named Karen, and she is one of the calmest, nicest, most loving people I have ever met. I cannot imagine her getting angry in public. I also suspect that most (if not, in fact, all) of the angry women you see in videos on YouTube aren’t even called Karen!
The meaning can go several ways
Have you ever dropped in on an text site with a whole bunch of black people texting back and forth? Some of the descriptive words they use would get me tossed in jail. It's the same way with transgender. Some of the words we use when texting or talking to one another would be called hate speech by those who aren't trans. Name a class of people such as, Red Necks, and their vocabulary would peel the paint off the barn and yet they have no idea their colorful language is crude and vulgar.
Was Gurl used as a derogatory term or was it tossed in as a filler or possibly the author is enamored with his or her concept of what transgender should be labeled? I believe I have been called every nasty name in the English language and probably a lot of other languages. Called sir and mister among other things when wearing a dress and heels. Called ma'am and miss when wearing coveralls, work boots and a hardhat and covered in grease and filth. I truly don't care what anyone perception of me is. I'll be Sir if that floats their boat and Miss if that works for them. I'll draw the line only if and or when they want to hurt me.
Back to Gurl. The word has meaning only if the reader gives it such.Or how the author portrays transgender in his or her story line. If it works as a filter to not read the story. I'm all for that also.
Hugs Patricia
Barb
When this life journey is finished, were we punished or were we blessed? The choice is up to us.
Oklahoma born and raised cowgirl
Used as a replacement for trans girl or trans woman.
As to how the author meant it, would be hard for me to say, because in my view, to separate trans girls or trans women from girls or women in general is just wrong. If a person feels in their heart they are female (or in my terminology for the deference between sex and gender, feminine) then they are a girl or a woman. to label them differently is to deny whats in the heart and psyche. In my mind it's worse than being misgendered.
I'm a realist. I have a male body and at this late stage in my life (78 yo) I don't see any point in pursuing any physical changes to that fact. That however doesn't mean I'm not feminine. That is to say my gender doesn't match that body. It seems an act of disrespect to not acknowledge that I'm she, her, a woman. If you must differentiate between me and a genetic woman, that please use trans woman. Gurl has a fetish sound to it. I think I developed the bias against the term because I made a mistake of looking at some captions where the term was used interchangeably with sissy, a term that from my earliest memory was derogatory.
Personal nit-pick I guess.
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
Ich bin eine Mann
Haven't We Established We Are What We Are
Patty, you'll always be a lady and nothing less in my books. It's what is in your heart and soul not the facade we present others see when they look at us. I understand it's hard for a lot of girls to be the gender what their heart tells them they are. The times, family, friends, job, part of the world they live in, expense and a whole lot more gives some an impossible task to present themselves as they truly are.
Take heart love, remember seeing and hearing when a guy walks up to a gaggle of girls and says, "Hi guys." They truly are females and only in a test of wits will one or more respond. "You are either blind or you don't know the difference between guys and gals." And the challenge of wits begins. Males who get into a debate with females are the dumbest creatures on earth. The funny part before it ever begins is they are too stupid to realize they are outclassed before it began.
Men..., I think God put them here for entertainment.
Hugs Patty
Barb
And when we come to the end of the road, do we perceive this unique gift a curse or a blessing?
Oklahoma born and raised cowgirl
As an Okie
I'm here to tell you that most of the good ol' boys, aka country boys, consider being called a redneck a compliment. If it's intended as an insult they sure don't take it that way. "You're a redneck." "Why thanke, ma'am. Nice to meet ya too, care to scoot yah boots?"
". . .they have no idea their colorful language is crude and vulgar." It's not! As long as you don't take the name of the lord in vain it ain't crude and vulgar. Even then, it it ain't in the Southern Baptist church you can get by with that too! Now if Brother Bob hears you you might be called out (so to speak) during the Sunday morning service.
Apropos of nothing, it struck me as funny that the common term for god (lord ) is also a lower rank of British aristocracy. Borrowed term? And in which direction?
Edit/Add: I think the Beatles nailed it. "I am he as you are he as you are me
And we are all together."
"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin
Etymology of ‘lord’
‘Lord’ comes from the Old English ‘hlaford‘, which was “bread keeper”, hlaf (loaf) weard (ward) – providing food being the responsibility of the chieftain. When English emerged, it was shortened.
The Bible is much changed by the process of translation and retranslation, but in Hebrew there is also a word (‘adonai’) that is used to refer to a powerful man or any god, so you could say that the concept of ‘lord’ (also Sir) as a catch-all term for authority (male, of course) is the same. A loose equivalent is the Latin word ‘dominus’.
Sugar and Spiiice – TG Fiction by Bryony Marsh
OR it could be worse...
It's been 18 years now and there is just no use to boringly say that my girl fate was all a plot or a mistake. At one point a shrink told me that if I did not do as I was told they would put me in the State Hospital for the Mentally Insane. (True) Finally I just did my best to adapt to my new life to include surgery, and all sorts of things right out of the Twilight Zone. These days I've done my best to be the woman I pretend to be. The Government even got in on it. I just had a conversation last week where a Psychiatrist obliquely told me that as long as I performed as expected, there would be no more drugs. And you all thought that the stories I have published here were entirely fictitious? Medallion of Zulo, Hah!
“Girl” and others
I am with you re “girl”. It’s pointless, because when you say it out loud there is no way to know if you are saying girl or gurl.
Others I hate are “cisgender” (what a dreadful made up word that is), and single people who are referred to as “they” or “them”. There is only one of you - make your mind up what you are!
Cis-gender
Cisgender or "cis gender" is a perfectly normal construction - assuming that you are not an native English speaker. The prefix 'cis' is used all over Europe to refer to something that is, I would say, 'normal', whatever that might be in context. (I would be delighted to be corrected on this.)
The Germans have the habit of mashing words together to make other ones so that is probably where 'cisgender' comes from. Like many words, the perception will vary on context. For you, it obviously grates. For me, it is just a descriptor for someone whose mind matches the body they were born with.
Penny
They / them
Are perfectly good proper English in correct usage.
You may use the terms when you don’t know the gender or where gender is unimportant eg they attacked me from behind or I kicked them in the shin - especially where we want to keep the other party anonymous ,
Madeline Anafrid Bell
They, Them
The original definition is a pronoun and is the plural form of he, she or it and thus was used to describe more than one person, animal, or group. I find its new use in describing someone who gender neutral is confusing.
We the willing, led by the unsure. Have been doing so much with so little for so long,
We are now qualified to do anything with nothing.
They, them
The use in English of singular 'they' to describe an unknown person preceded by about 300 years the use of singular 'you'. I write as a linguist, by the way; singular was 'thou, thee, thy, thine'. It is one of the reasons 'you' takes otherwise plural forms of some verbs, such as 'are'.
Someone's left their phone on that table. I wonder if they're aware they did? Will they be back for it?
On a note more relevant to the OP, 'girl' also used to be a gender-neutral word for any young child.
They/Them
I agree with the usage of they/them when referring to someone unknown, but when referring to an individual person as they/them, just because they cannot decide what gender they are, is a bit ridiculous. What they need is help from mental health professionals, not pandering to their delusions.
EDIT: I just noticed that I kept referring to an individual person as “they”! D’oh!!
It's perfectly acceptable to
It's perfectly acceptable to not identify with either... is there a reason you need to be on one 'side' or the other? How is someone who doesn't feel the need to identify need to be pushed one way or another?
Cis
'Cis' is a Latin prefix, meaning 'on this side of', as opposed to 'trans', which means 'on the other side of'. The oldest text I have seen it in, and the first where I encountered it, was by Julius Caesar: cisalpine Gaul was one the three parts, that one the same side of the Alps as Roman Italy.
Cis, as in 'cisgender', is a term only used when discussing trans people, and is there specifically to bring conversational balance. It avoids the implication that one group is 'normal' or 'better'. Try these examples.
People and black people
Men and gay men
Women and trans women
We could, of course, simply drop the other adjective*, but that would lead to confusion: some people say that only women should be allowed in women's toilets, and that women should use the men's.
See?
*'Cis' is a prefix, as in 'cisgender', but also serves as an abbreviated adjective.
Not the same sound
Phonetically the short "I" sound is totally different than the short "U" sound. Saying the "girl" and "gurl" sound the same would be like saying "jig" and "jug" sound the same.
I would pronounce "Girl" as Ger-ell, while "Gurl" would come out Gau-rell.
I'm a phonetic reader and letter have fixed sounds they can make. It's what allows me to pronounce words I read that I've never seen before. It was drilled into me in grammar school. When reading aloud for the class and I came across a word I didn't know, the teacher would say, "Sound it out," meaning say the sounds that the letters make.
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
Ich bin eine Mann
FWIW...
...Dictionary.com shows the pronunciation of "girl" as "gurl". (No listing for "gurl", but it's hard to think it'd be different.) Merriam-Webster online shows both "girl" and "gurl" with a schwa for the vowel. American Heritage Dictionary offers "gûrl" for "girl".
(Cambridge online uses "ɡɜːl" for the U.K. -- the "r" elided -- and "ɡɝːl" in the U.S. No "gurl" listed there, but "curl" uses the same vowel symbols.)
So you seem to be in the minority here. Actually, I didn't think it would be that clear-cut.
Eric
Dialect
Your pronunciation of "Gurl" as "Ger-ell" tells me that you probably grew up north of the border, where pronunciation can be very different. Down south the pronuciation of vowels can vary widely depending on location. If you are Welsh, then the Welsh language is almost strictly phonetic and is easy to pronounce. This can make Welsh people pronounce English words differently to locals in England (I have Welsh relatives).
When I had a courier job I went to places such as Murton, Merton and Mirton, all pronounced exactly the same! Not to mention Perton, Pirton and Purton. English place names are a law unto themselves, of course, and can easily identify visitors to an area. English as spoke by the English is definitely not phonetic, whatever your English teacher told you.
Penny
Yes!
That quote I gave from Ginny fits with your differentiation. While I wouldn't say 'girl' your way, 'gurl' is pronounced almost as 'goorl'. It's a deliberately silly sounf in those particular circumstances.
Fully agree
Yes, I fully agree. If I see the word "gurl", that story is an instant nope.
Instant nopes?
This conversation has become rather uncharitable.
Let us take the word "gurl". It seems to me likely that the word arose within the trans community as a way of distinguishing in a generalised way mtf trans as a group. A cant term if you will. As so often, language within the group has moved on and it is no longer regarded as appropriate. However, not all of us are up to date and many writings still worth reading will have used the now unfashionable term.
Secondly "sissy" , term that almost certainly began as and still is a derogatory term. I won't say for whom as that would be to define what is a very confused slur. Can anyone define "a sissy"?
However, there now exists a large group of people who commonly and defiantly define themselves as "sissy". The key idea here is defiance. It is not the first time that a group has taken ownership of a word used to insult people like them.
They/ them. Using the term as an attempt at describing part of who you are is not a sign of mental illness. I don't like the usage myself, but, ironically it means more to me than most because i am they. There is Marie, writing to you now, and there is a distinct male self whose body i am forced to share. We don't agree on many things but we do know there are two of us. However, as i prefer to ignore him i do prefer that you use "she/her" when you address me.
No, not a mental illness
That's true. But it sure plays hob with sentence structure for those of us who try to speak and write reasonably good English.
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
Ich bin eine Mann
I Yam What I Yam
What's in a name?
Everything.
"Gurl" is just another way of saying "You're a boy and you'll always be a boy because that's my preference for you."
I agree with your distaste.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Heh heh heh heh
This is embarrassking!
Love, Andrea Lena
Depends on where your from.
I rarely, almost never hear "Gurl" here, but I never hear "Mum" either. When I write, I try to use UK English.
Maybe
If a story setting is in the US and the characters are Americans, particularly by an American writer, it seems pompous to have them speaking the King's English. Why I don't use British characters in my writings. IRL, I have found that, absence any other circumstances*, Americans speaking upper crust or "BBC" English are generally shallow, pretentious people.
* Had a great friend in high school who's father was an upper level oil company exec; she could effortlessly slip from Okie-speak to normal UK English (as spoken by Londoners). Having mostly grown up in London her speech was normally UK English. But she spoke real UK English, not BBC English. Loved her like a sister. She could whip out any number of UK dialects and be absolutely 100% spot on!
"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin
American vs English
This is getting into a very different subject. I am English and have lived my whole life in Britain. I read lots of books and stories by both American and British writers, and some Australian and other nationalities too.
When I read a book by an American author I expect to read about people walking on the sidewalk, putting cases in the trunks of their cars, or calling their mother “mom”. If it is by a British author, I expect to read about people walking on the pavement, putting cases in the boot of their car, and calling their mother “mum”.
The problems, for me at least, arise when an American writer sets their story in Britain and continues to use American terminology, or when a British writer sets their story in America and then continues to use British terminology. It just seems all kinds of wrong, and really grates with me.
Just a personal gripe!
I'm with you.
When I first started reading stories online and came across a British author writing in UK English the terminology threw me. As I got used to it, it made me chuckle. Now I read right by it without an eye blink. However there are still a few words that throw me. I still do a mental stumbled when someone says, "I tried it on and it fitted me perfectly." But I'm getting used to that as well.
As to Americans in British stories and vice versa. It bothers me quite a bit, now that I'm used to it. Some time back, I can't remember the name of the author or the story, but the protagonist was British and managed to get a job at the the New Your Metropolitan Museum. It was a good story, but the author had Americans taking the lift upstairs and various other things that set my teeth on edge. I PMd the author and offered my services to help their American characters speak American English. The author took me up on it and for the next three chapter I did a quick read through making suggestion to have the Yanks speak American before the protagonist went back home.
I've resisted for a long time putting any British characters in any of my stories because, while I can read UK English, I doubt that I could replicate it accurately. But my story, "A Yank in British Fancy Dress" did just that. An American went to London and spent two weeks interacting with Brits. It was a fare bit of juggling accents to keep it all straight and then I had three nice volunteers with experience with the London dialect go through and make changes to the British side of the dialog. The all three wisely declined credit for editing. I could easily messed up their efforts or since there are so many British dialects others could have taken exception to what they had done and called them to task over a matter of opinion.
I had done my best to put the Brit into my British characters and I was surprised at how little my editors came up with that needed changing.
Heaven forbid that I ever get the idea of putting an Australian character in one of my stories.
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
Ich bin eine Mann
Gurl
I have used it, but for a very specific reason
My character Ginny, whose personality might be described on a polite day as 'mercurial'*, used it to describe another character when gushing about her transition. From memory, "All this time we've been waiting for that other shoe to drop, but it's not a shoe, it's a fluffy slipper in gurly-gurl pink!"
I used that spelling for specific reasons and stick by it. It is not a word I would ever use except as part of a joke.
*As her friends say, sanity is only an occasional visitor.
Keeping in character
When writing dialog there is no need to worry about "proper English" or spelling. Your character speaks the way they do. If you characters is someone who buys into the "gurl" idea, then not using it would throw off the dialog and muddy the waters as to meaning or intent.
But when the author is in narration, then something close to proper English should be the goal.
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
Ich bin eine Mann