Back in the before-fore times I contracted an editor to look over the 4th draft of 11th Sun. They were... unkind. Disappointingly so. And unfortunately the important question I needed answering, whether the 4th draft was better than the second, was never answered. I have my own thoughts about the job they did, and whether the were interested in helping me in the first place.
Now I'm searching for a way to keep from burning out, and I'm wondering anew. Would anyone be willing to take a look at the first section on each draft and tell me if I'm wasting my time with my technique?
Comments
Here's What I Do
I read the first chapter.
I write very little sci fi so if you're looking for that expertise it's not in me
I've worked with dozens of writers. It seems to work with those who actually want to grow as a writer.
You're quite good already. There are a lot of typos.
I'll go through your manuscript and suggest changes. Whether or not you accept them is entirely up to you. I'm not your mother.
As far as telling you whether "A" is better than "B" that's up to you. I'm not here for your ego gratification. If you can't tell which is better you probably should just forget about writing as writing is all about personal choices.
Maybe you should read some of my stories to decide if you want to work with me.
The last author I worked with was Emma Anne Tate. I think it was a positive experience for her. Ask her.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
"As far as telling you
"As far as telling you whether "A" is better than "B" that's up to you. I'm not here for your ego gratification. If you can't tell which is better you probably should just forget about writing as writing is all about personal choices."
That's cold, unprofessional, and a personal opinion.
Barb
Oklahoma born and raised cowgirl
A/B reader
The comment from Angela may sound very heavy handed and cruel, but in many ways she makes some good points.
As a writer, even at the level most of us are on this forum the whole point is to get YOUR ides, YOUR thoughts into a format that is suitable for your readers to appreciate. It is reasonable and common to have someone proof read and do a critique of YOUR work. However it is YOUR role to develop the storylines and characters in a way that YOU want to present them and develop your own style The only way to do this is to keep having a go, sometimes it will work and sometimes it wont.
i have written some stories that I thought were quite good but for some reason have bombed and not been well received, whereas others have surprised me at how well they have done. Write what YOU want to write, in a way that YOU want to write it, see what goes down well with your readers and play to those strengths .
SF and fantasy are not really my genres, so i am not the best person to critique your work and advise you as to what will go down well with readers in tune with those fields, but I am sure that there are many fans who will be willing to help.
Good luck.
Gill xx
Many Writers are Like Parents
They write a story and unless they belong to a writer's class they are generally on their own. That story is the open door into their emotions and their feelings. Con artists know and understand and use that to scam newbie writers out of almost everything they own.
Writers are artists and they put their emotions and their feelings into their story. Shall we begin with the pain as Angela did? Or shall we feed their ego and fleece them? New writer, new story, "You stink, if you don't know what you're doing, quit." Really encourages someone to keep going doesn't it?
As a publisher and as an editor I read more than my fair share of script that was truly bad. Never once did I ever tell a writer their efforts belonged in the trash. They needed guidance not criticism. At times some took the words all wrong. They wrote the next NYPost best seller and I was full of crap. I had done what I could, like many on this channel, they had a mindset and nothing was changing it.
This is where the con artist steps in. "I read your manuscript and it's the best story I ever read. You have to get it in front of the right editors and I know them all. For $$$$$$$ you'll be the next Steven King. Our poor writer just had his ego stroked and he bought it hook line and reel. He sends money and the con will keep on going until the guy is broke or he gets published. Oh yeah, he gets published. A couple hundred or couple thousand books are in his living room or garage. The snake oil salesman did promise the poor writer he would be published. Instead of a savings in the bank he has remainders in his garage (books that won't sell) Stories abound of some who mortgaged their homes to reach that pinnacle as another Edgar Rice Burroughs, or Zane Grey or yes John Grisham. The stars in their eyes met the cosmic con artist.
Before I lose too many of you, Mark Twain self published as all the book publishers turned him down. He paid to have Tom Sawyer printed. At first Americans refused to touch it. Some of his books traveled to Europe and they couldn't get enough of this uncivilized nation and the adventures of Tom Sawyer.
Want to destroy a beginning writer? It's easy, a few unkind words will do the trick. For someone who failed every English class in school and managed to repeat myself in college. It's ironic, I'm the last person or qualified if degrees are necessary to make judgement. Certainly the last person to look at anyone's story and give advice. And yet I've been doing that for more than forty years. I love SF and if Eleven hasn't been driven away. I'd love to see what he or she has done so far.
Hugs Gillian
Barb
Oklahoma born and raised cowgirl
You Haven't Read What Eleven Wrote?
Eleven's writing is quite good. My remark showed respect for her level of expertise.
Eleven is a high-level writer. I'd be happy to help but not as an "A" or "B" judge.
I would think, given your background, that you would read her sample chapters before making any judgment.
Next time . . . please do your homework before using your hatchet.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
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What I would encourage you to examine within yourself is: why did you feel the need to write a comment, only to say you would not do the specific thing I requested?
What??????
Examine within myself?
I offered you a service. A free service. And, you want me to examine my motives?
I commented to tell you exactly what I would do and what wouldn't do. . .and told you why.
I have been helping writers on this site for twenty years. Some have benefitted greatly . . . others have not. Among those who have benefitted are some of the best writers on this site.
Partially I worded my comment to make sure I wouldn't be wasting my time or yours.
Obviously, you've answered that question.
The offer is withdrawn.
Good luck with your writing.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
There was never any danger of my accepting that offer
A service I neither asked for, nor require, all to say instead that you would not do what I requested and lecture me for asking. This started a meaningless fight in the comments, of use to absolutely no one. I'd say you wasted everyone's time.
Perhaps you missed the point
Jill’s offer was more generous than just “A or B.” I agree that “if you can’t tell, you probably should forget about writing” was a harsh way to say it, but to grow any creative skill you do need to develop ability to judge your own work, and for that you need detailed feedback. Likely B improved some parts but not others and you won’t get that by having someone invest their time in your story, only for you to take no more information from them than A or B. If you just want yes/no, toss a coin.
I don’t review fiction for a living but I do review complex work of professionals, and giving usefully constructive feedback is really, really hard. The terms of Jill’s offer reflected that, and just don’t happen to meet your present needs.
Oh good this is still going on
Generous or not, it was not an offer I asked for or need. I have two editors lined up when the time comes, neither can do this particular task at this time. Nor would I ask them too. I'm looking for fresh eyes. And even if I hadn't already made arrangements I have no need for an editor that doesn't even read my genre.
I have my own, very good, reasons for putting in this ask, and fortunately found someone who was willing to fulfill it without climbing onto a soap box and lecturing me about what I should or should not know about my writing.
BEFORE I GO . . ..
I didn't say I don't read sci-fi, as you erroneously stated.
I said, "I write very little sci-fi so if you're looking for that expertise it's not in me."
I've written several sci-fi stories and one sci-fi novel which would be about two to four percent of my total.
Kurt Vonnegut is one of my favorite authors. Whether or not he wrote sci-fi is a matter of debate but his writing is at the end of the sci-fi spectrum I enjoy most.
As far as me "getting on a soap box" -- I'm not a subtle person. When I get on a soapbox you will feel it in your spleen.
For example;
Writing is a process of being in your readers' minds, each of your characters' minds, and your mind -- simultaneously. It is a process of creating action/response sequences so that every phrase is a mini-cliffhanger.
You seem to have a bit of a problem holding your audience.
I've written three serials for BCTS. As a rule, I don't write serials and have written well over a hundred solos. But if I do write a serial, one of my goals is to have enough readers' ongoing satisfaction so that they come back to see how things turn out.
The first serial had 15,263 views for the first chapter and 6,305 views for the final chapter. That story retained 41% of its audience.
The second serial I wrote had 2,083 views for the first chapter and 1,164 views for the final chapter. That story retained 56% of its audience.
The third serial was written for a BCTS contest based on retaining viewers. That story had 4,753 views for the first chapter and 2,860 views for the final chapter. That story retained 60% of its audience. I won that contest -- so this is a matter of public record. Ask Rasufelle if you would like to check my mendacity.
In contrast, your 11th Sun had 4,015 views for the first chapter and 775 views for the last posted chapter. Your retention is 19% - less than half my worst and less than a third of my best.
I would have hoped to have worked with you on techniques to turn your work into a bit more of a page-turner.
That - is what it feels like when I get on a soapbox.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
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Thank you for confirming that not working with you was the right choice. If this is how you respond to the mildest push back, I can't imagine what working on a creative endeavor would be like.
Different perspective
You didn’t need imagination; you only needed to ask. Any number of authors on the site could have told you.
How does it feel to work with one of the most successful authors on the site? First, it was a privilege. But that’s just the start. When Jill started working with me, I was a very experienced and successful writer who had, nonetheless, never written fiction, much less dialogue. As a result, I was (uncharacteristically, for me) uncertain. I think I was probably hoping Jill would tell me that my work was fabulous and, to be slightly crude, that my shit didn’t stink.
You can probably guess that she didn’t do that. What she did was more valuable. She treated me like an adult. She made it clear at every step that it was my story. She offered specific technical suggestions that reflected her deep experience, and she indicated areas that needed additional thought from me as the author. When she thought something didn’t work, she explained her thinking clearly and cogently. But she made it very clear that it was up to me to decide whether the story was good.
I took probably ninety percent of Jill’s suggested changes, and thought good and hard about the ones I didn’t take. She never gave me any pushback, because again, it was my story. Praise was rare, but all the more valuable for that. She was extremely professional.
So, what’s it like to work with Jill? Exhilarating. She helped me become a better writer, and a far more confident writer. I can understand why Jill’s blunt words put you off, though the substance of her comments wasn’t actually different from other responses you received here. But, by focusing on the plain wrapping paper, you failed to appreciate the value of the gift she was offering.
— Emma
Your decision
Like the other comments it is your decision whether A is better than B or vice versa
If it was a specific subject that you are trying to convey then there is grounds for a true comparison, i.e. explaining Kelper's Law of Planetary Motion
I have learned that technique is up to the individual
Subjective question
“Better” is a very subjective thing. Technically better? Better at character development? Setting a scene? Developing a plot? Those are all very different things. I would echo those saying that if you, as the author, think version four is better, then it’s better, regardless of what your editor or your readers may think.
If I may delicately weigh in on another subject, Jill Rasch was kind enough to offer to edit several of my stories, and gave me countless hours of work for free. Her insights were extremely valuable, despite the fact that I had been writing in a professional context for over thirty years. She offered this out of the blue, and I was delighted to accept. She was great.
But again, it’s your story. If you don’t think you need an editor, that’s your call.
— Emma