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I know that Fictionmania has a less sophisticated reader than Big Closet, but this is the kind of thing that pisses me off:
Toni (a reviewer of a recent very short piece) says:
"Short stories (under 30kb) are such teasers. No substance."
Grrr.
My reply:
"Hello Toni
I have posted only 10 stories over 30kb on Fictionmania (although I have longer stories on Amazon) so clearly that is not my genre. I think short stories can be teasers, as they invite readers to think rather than just absorb. So perhaps it is not for you. But to say that short stories have no substance is to misunderstand one of the great forms of literature. I am no comparing myself to other masters of the written word like Twain, Poe, James, Nabakov and Stephen King, but they all achieved their repute from the short story.
Maryanne"
Comments
That old chestnut again
Toni is one of those 'Never mind the Quality, feel the Width' sort of people. This phrase goes back to the days when it was thought to be cool to have really wide trouser legs and lots of extra material in a suit. The quality of the material was often very iffy especially after WW2 so the more material and thus the looser cut meant that it was more durable and more money for the tailor when it was sold by weight rather than length.
The opposite to this is possible 'short and sweet'. D.H. Lawrence was also a master of the short story.
IMHO, it is harder to write a really good short story than it is a much longer piece. In a few hundred words you really don't have time for much backstory or character development so it is In, tell and out. They can have plenty of substance and impact. The latter can be watered down by too much verbage.
As for stories under 30kb... If one character is one byte and we allow two bytes for a CR/LR this Toni character really missing some excellent work 20,000 words is quite a short story. I wonder what their reaction to 'Flash Fiction' would be? Perhaps they'd explode!
Ignore that person. Rise above their small mindedness. Put them in the same jamjar (with the lid screwed on) as those who say that all Hollywood Films have to have 1) A car chase, 2) A Murder or 3) An explosion or 4) all of those in the first ten minutes of a film in order to make money at the box office. That is clearly not true (although it is getting harder to find them in the sort of shite that gets released these days).
Keep on writing. Do your own thing and to hell with the critics.
Samantha
There's an easier solution.
Maryanne Peters already uses a lot of photos: include the size of THAT in with the text, and passing 30 KB is quite easy.
Or maybe, if they really did type Kb, they meant kilobit, in which case 2500 words should satisfy their needs and is much more reasonable . . . though still knocking out a lot of great work. If they DID mean 20k, then, well, even my books I'm *selling* would feel like short changing to them, which is pretty silly since 20k is solid "light novel" range.
I, too, am a fan of the short story. I kinda have to be: I've written so many of them!
*hugs*
Melanie E.
The facile desire to wound
People will say anything when they want to put you down or hurt your feelings. When the object is to wound, the truth doesn't matter.
It's pretty clear that the statement is ridiculous -- that story quality is determined by the number of bits. It's a stupid thing to say. If volume is the first criteria, then poetry has no value.
It's amazing how much impact a single negative remark seems to have!
- io
Sour grapes
I can understand the disappointment of reading a short story - if you really like it, you want more, much more. But usually a short story is not meant to be expanded into a novel or a series. This can be disappointing for the reader, but you know quite well what you will get lengthwise before you start reading, so it is the reader's own fault if they are disappointed that there is not more than "just a short story".
Some stories only work in a short format and there was a wise man who said that a work is perfect not if you cannot add any more to it but rather when you cannot take away any more from it.
Back in the golden days of SF&F magazines (yes, I am a fan of SF&F, it is the staple of my literary diet) the short story was the standard format, decades later novels became the norm and nowadays you will find more series than standalone novels. So the reader's expectations change. But each format still has value and if you don't like that format, well, just don't read it. There is no reason to badmouth works just because one does not like the format, that reeks awfully like "sour grapes" (and yes, I had to read that story in its original latin form some decades ago in school ...).
I enjoy all kinds of stories, be they short or long, standalone or part of a long, long series. All have value and, yes, "substance" - distilling the gist of a story down the absolute minimum is art. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise, they just show how foolish they are.
Best when at the right length ...
Stories are best when they are at their right length. Too long, and they get boring.
And 'right length' changes with the times. Try Don Quixote. His audience did not have the rich shared visual world we have now. Cervantes had to 'paint' >everything< with words.
I think this is complete in 57 words:
===
A Question
A Soul, as all must, leaves this World and stands before The Lady, in The Flowered Glade. Of course there is a Question:
Gaia: “Did you have fun?”
The Soul: “Well … No. Not really.”
Gaia: “Go Back and try again.”
Soul: “Waw! Waw-uh-Waw!”
New Mom: “Shush. Shush. Everything is going to be alright, Baby.”
===
Too short, and we may leave the reader with an unsatisfying number of questions. Which I might have done ... I do leave the reader to fill in an entire life, and family, and background - all the "stuff" of the classic 'three score and ten'. But I think I'm done.
Enjoy.
Thank you all
That single negative remark has had no impact simply because the way I deal with issues is to write about them. And of course, when I get lovely supportive comments from writers and readers who have intelligence, that is even better.
But I voiced this gripe because I prefer the short story myself. I often say it is because I do not have time for novels. Even my preferred non-fiction books of any size can lie around only partly read for weeks. But I like taking my sustenance in snacks.
As for those who want more from what I started, in most cases I invite them to dream their preferred ending.
The list of writers I gave was only American writers, but there are so many more in the rich tradition of the short story. But I ended with Stephen King. If you want examples of how short stories can be expanded by somebody other than the writer look at "Children of the Corn" or "1408" became hours of TV from just a short story. I have not included "The Shawshank Redemption" because that would be marginally over 30kb I guess.
Maryanne
Some idiots cannot recognise good writing when it is laid out
"on a plate" in front of them! Treat such cavalier comments with the contempt they deserve. Did your erudite reply gain the apology it deserved from that critic? You didn't say. Remember, no-one can "please all of the people all of the time".
Do not let such people hurt you. Your writing is better than that. I am hoping that my favorable comments to your BCTS contributions have shown that. A good short story often has a twist, but even that is not essential. Yours (nearly) always have the appeal of what seems to be a fresh approach. They (once again nearly always) seem sparklingly fresh to the reader, even when you give credit to an outside source for your original inspiration.
Please keep them coming!
Best wishes
Dave
My writing of this comment
overlapped with your writing, which I found immediately above, when I posted!
Dave
You should post a story called The Epic Saga of Toni
over at yon other site, that would go:
turned into a girl.
The End.
Yeah I'm a brat.
~hugs, Ronni
What borders on stupidity?
Canada and Mexico.
.
Can I suggest ...
Ronni,
I think this story has real potential. Have considered making it a little longer?
If you extend it to 81 words (no more no less) you could put it into a competition: https://www.christopherfielden.com/writing-challenges/81word...
Here is one 81 word I particularly like (Non TG):
Furborg's Caution
by Ian Tucker
As a kitten, Furborg caught flu and almost died.
Accidentally drinking floor cleaner claimed another life shortly afterwards.
When young he'd underestimated the strength of a fox.
And he once fell three storeys from a roof.
The vase that toppled onto him wasn't his fault.
And every cat has one bad experience with curiosity.
One time, he ate the wrong sort of grass.
Recently, there was the incident with the yellow lorry.
Adding these up, Furborg is now much more cautious.
story length
A story should be as long as it needs to be to be told properly.
You're Casting Pearls
Don't be disappointed when your pearls are trampled upon and you are attacked.
There have been dozens of times when I've read your stories and wished you had taken that same idea and written a much longer piece.
Longer doesn't necessarily mean better.
For years, publishers set book lengths based largely on shelf space and the cost of paper and ink. The average novel was 75,000 words.
The average young adult novel was 45,000 words. Then Harry Potter blew the roof off and about the same time ebooks made things much different.
When I first started writing online my first story was about 60,000 words and then several in the 25,000 to 45,000 range. Than a couple of people asked me when I was going to quit fooling around and write something much longer.
Write until the story ends.
If they don't like it they don't have to read it.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
re: Write until the story ends.
I slightly disagree.
Write until the story as you want to tell it ends in your mind, the author.
The result might not be perfect for others but in the imaginary world that you have created in your mind it is nigh on perfect.
Letting go of your baby can be as much of a problem as getting started but that point opens up another cauldron of hungry worms.
If your work is a 'Turd' then no matter how much polish you put on your work it will still be a 'Turd'.
Samantha
No Disagreement
Last night I watched "The Princess Bride" for what was maybe my fifteenth time.
In a way it was my first time because I was watching it with two grandchildren who hadn't seen it before.
The story could have ended with the four riding off on the white horses Andre the Giant had found. But then we never would have seen the greatest kiss in the history of kisses. Or, it could have ended with the kiss, but then we would have missed grandpa Peter Falk promising to come back the next day to read the book again by saying, "As you wish."
The movie's theme of love conquers all needed that final bow tied.
A writer has an implied contract with the reader to complete the story.
The definition of "complete" is up to the writer.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
I introduced my nieces to "The Princess Bride" around a year ago
My eldest niece thought it was okay, my youngest -- only 4 at the time -- didn't really pay attention. My niece Shelbie? She ADORED it, and I let her take my copy home with her to re-watch as much as she wanted.
From what I understand, it's been in nearly weekly rotation at their house as part of their family movies since.
Melanie E.
Oh dear!
My apolgies to you and Angela but there are two movies that I have never been able to sit through.
The first is 'On Golden Pond'. If I can't get to sleep then that is how I cure it.
The other is I'm afraid is 'The Princess Bride'. I just find it so cringeworthy that I have to stop watching.
Sorry about that.
Samantha.
No need to apologize!
Just like with literature, one's taste in films is subjective. If we didn't all like different things, then far less movies, books, and music would exist! And the world is better for its variety.
Trust me, there are plenty of classics I don't care for: you'd never catch me dead reading Charles Dickens again, for example.
Melanie E.
Catching you dead
Just for you, Melanie, today's story to get you back to Dickens
Maryanne
There is an art to reading Dickens
Given that most of his work was published in weekly instalments (like Conan Doyle did with Sherlock Holmes) then read one chapter a week.
Too much Dickens at once can be overpowering especially with some of his later work.
Samantha
Book Lengths
Book lengths also differ by genre. From what I've looked up online, young adult caps out at around 90,000 - but fantasy can be 90,000 to 150,000 and epic fantasy to 200,000!
Of course publishing such length here is tricky as the trend is to break them up into parts so the reader doesn't get hit with it all at once. Trying to hold each 'part' to 20,000 in size with a 6 part plan can be hard sometimes though. (Especially for epic endings which need longer to make a 'part' coherent...)
But I think a good short story can be almost any length provided it has a beginning, middle, and an actual ending. Mind you the ending doesn't have to actually resolve everything into a neat bow either; it's perfectly valid to leave things dangling especially if the point of the story was more to raise the central question / issue to the reader than provide an answer or if it's a deliberate cliffhanger ending for fun like the end of the movie 'The Thing'. :)
Beginnings and Middles and Ends
Does a story really need a beginning, middle, and an end?
I am thinking of that play "Waiting for Godot" which really is just the middle of something - an exchange between characters with no explanation as to why they are there, and then (spoiler alert) Godot never arrives. It is brilliant!
I like walking in without setting the scene, so that what happens can hint at the origins.
And, as you say, some endings that don't explain the what and why can exasperate some readers, but if that is the writers intention then the story has done its job.
Maryanne
Writing guidelines
You're right and I should have clarified the statement as a 'general guideline'. A truly talented writer can break all the rules and yet create something marvelous! Though at the same time the guidelines are there for a reason to help hacks like me. :)
Reasonable Expectations
If the authors goal is to meet the readers reasonable expectations then guidelines are very helpful.
If the author's goal is to merely please themselves guidelines become less applicable, so does creating a written record of the story.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)