I recently have been reading the working my way through the Tales of Anmar by Penny Lane and found a question. I felt this might be the best place for it.
Out of the four transferees we have seen, three have had a gender change. Unfortunately, we did not see the fourth non-gender change except in the bit where he died. So the question is, did he suffer from memory loss like the others? Personally, I don't think so or if so it was for a very short time.
My reasoning is that while they all have new bodies, only the bodies that are gender changed are sufficiently different that the information has to fit in in new locations in the brain.
Now, you can say that in both cases new neural pathways need to be created for the connection between memories, but the brain in the gender changed is physically different so the placement of the information would also be different. This reason could cause it to go either way. But if both had memory loss, I think the difference in the brain is why it might be shorter and less painful (maybe no pain) for non-gender changed.
Anyways, those are my thoughts. How about you?
Wil
Comments
Transferees
As I understand it, the memory loss (and slow recovery) is designed to allow the transferee to slowly come to terms with their new life, while ensuring that those who find them will take care of them without suspicion. It has nothing to do with gender change. In fact it was stated that it would not be required when Garia returned from her expedition to Earth as she would be expected.
Until Garia was able to communicate with the beings, they were unaware that there was a problem, but as her situation drastically changed the probabilities, it needed to be investigated. I suspect that Maralin's transformation was part of that investigation. We have yet to discover if Ursula's change is deliberate or random chance.
There is some support for your idea.
It would be problematic if the early transferee had the same memory loss. In the story, we have a group of vikings washed a shore in an area that may have been very inhospitable. If they had the memory issue, they would likely all had died.
Two points on that...
One is that if non-gender changed individuals do not loose their memory it wouldn't matter, as only 1 in 4 would change gender.
And two, it is just possible that instinct might provide what memory doesn't. If say, I am used to grabbing a line (rope) to trim sail, I might do it even if I didn't know why. I might puzzle over it for a bit, but once I have my memory back it wouldn't matter. But it might explain the reason they shipwrecked.
Personally, I am leaning towards only gender changed losing their memory, but it's possible that others lose it for shorter and in a less debilitating way.
The previous commenter says that it was said that the Beings can control this issue. Honestly, I can't remember. Maybe Penny may eventually weigh in on the issue.
Thanks for the response from both of you.
Wil
Aine
I think you will find
that once the Beings learnt about the gender anomaly, they chose Maralin to not only help their long-term plans but also to experiment upon, to see if a deliberate sex change could occur.
Just in case you were unaware of all the background to Anmar, and the other authors who have contributed to this world, then here is a top-level menu that might help:
https://www.bigclosetr.us/topshelf/book-page/59163/anmarian-...
All the best
Joolz
Transfer memory loss
I haven't explicitly mentioned it anywhere, and I haven't thought the issue through in fine detail, but there are enough clues in the stories to provide a plausible explanation of what happens.
The differences between male and female brains - physically - are relatively minor at or before birth. Yes, I know that hormones play a large part but the newborn infant really doesn't have much it needs to do that is gender-based. It is only later, once it begins noticing the surrounding environment, that it tries to figure out who and what it is. Children then begin to copy the adults around them and that is reinforced by their parents attempting to mould them into what the parents think they are.
I am not a psychologist, nor do I play one on TV.
However, all brains develop differently from conception. Every single one of them. Particular regions may be used for similar purposes, but if you saw us open and have a look, you won't see identical brains like you would see identical hearts, for example. (Even then, hearts vary in size and shape according to how the user lives.)
For transferees, there will be a period of settling in as the memories of the original are impressed onto the new, developing brain. It suits everybody to have this blank period, as it gives time for the new body to co-ordinate the nerve circuitry and the muscles to react in the appropriate way. It also allows the 'rescuers' time to become familiar with the new person before that person discovers who and what they were, and who and where they are now.
So, I would think that a period of memory loss is a useful thing. I wouldn't say that it would be much shorter if the gender remained the same, maybe a day or so. In the case of Garia, it was also a useful plot device because it got her down from the mountain pass to the palace before anything awkward happened.
Penny
But what about situations...
Einnlanders? They were shipwrecked. This would be a case of no rescuers. It definitely wouldn't have been in their favor to not have memories. Say their ship was stranded on a reef instead of a beach. They would need to get off the ship with all the gear they might need for short-term survival. Mainly food and water and some warm clothes. Just curious.
Oh also what about natural reflex? I'm thirsty and reach for a bottle of water without thinking it through. Same thing actually happens for them with language. They just respond in like kind without thought.
Wil
Aine
Plot hole or plot device?
I suspect this is a case of a plot device of the main character becoming a plot hole for some minor ones. After all, the detail history of Einnlanders is hardly critical the main story.
That might be true in some cases...
But if you are considering writing in a universe where you introduce new characters, it's nice to know the history. Especially when it can affect them.
Wil
Aine
Einlanders
We only know of the original Einlanders (and Chivans) through legends, so we don't know if memory loss was part of the process at the time they were transferred or not. Also, as Penny mentioned, another part of the reason is to allow the rescuers to get to know the transferee, something that would not be necessary when transferring a large group.
memory loss
The human brain is nothing more than an organic computer, reading all the Anmar stories all the transferees can communicate straight away and can talk all the different languages from Earth even the dead languages
So if the Brain has all this additional information added wouldn't it need time to defrag after a reboot.
I agree it is logical
I only question if a person or group could survive in an emergency situation on their own. Alternatively, having a large group appear with memory disruption would be problematic for any primitive individual or even village that found them. Then the area these vikings found themselves in was describe as inhospitable. Thus, it is more likely they did not have such disruption or it was less then other who had a gender flip. Since the "Canon" does not note the Viking being helped, it is likely they were placed in an area devoid of an established populations. This matches the story of the beings bring populations to populate Anmar.
This is what I see!
If no rescuers are around for a large group, they would not survive. If a person has no memory and no instinct to act on they would not eat or drink for those five days. It is said, 3 minutes without air, 3 hours without shelter (extreme weather), 3 days without water, and 3 weeks without food and you can not survive. Now the only two we need to worry about with the Einlanders is shelter and water. The body tends to breathe on its own, but without instinct to get out of the cold or drink water and the Einlanders are dead before their memory returned. So I feel that there needs to be a reason for some to remember, and I feel the non-gender changed would be it since we have not "seen" the occurrence.
Wil
Aine
I think it's already been
I think it's already been said that the reintegration process takes time. Taking a day for the normal -non- gender swapped wouldn't cause them to be at risk of anything other than wildlife and exposure.
For the gender swapped, yes, they weren't _remembering_ for the first few days, but they weren't unconscious. Remember, Garia was dropped shortly before being found - it's not like she was parked on the hillside for days. Within a day, she was able to move around, eat, drink, etc. That means that the Einnlanders, for example, were up and moving around, just having a hard time remembering things. Being on the shore means that they weren't really at risk of wild animals (most avoid the beach because there's not a lot to drink or eat there), and had time to recover.
BW
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
But as you pointed out....
They were on the shore where food and water would be hard to find. Unless they remembered that they had such with them, either in the wreckage or in the gear left with them. Also if they do not remember anything they would have to find what they don't know to look for. 3 days without clean water would be a problem. If they drank salt water the time would be less.
Wil
Aine
You're saying three days.
You're saying three days. Garia was unconscious less than one full day. Nobody dies of dehydration in one day unless they're in the desert - in the summer. It's actually difficult to dehydrate in three days, in a cool climate. (not comfortable, though).
Remember, Garia was able to recognize basic things, walk, talk, and take care of personal business. So, they would have 'awoken' on the beach, not really sure who they were or why they were there, but would be able to look around for food, water, and shelter.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
I didn't say unconscious...
For three days. With no memory or instincts on how to respond to physical stimuli, they would perish. Neither Garia nor Ursula knew that they had to use the bathroom. Once there they did figure it out. But if I'm hungry or thirsty but don't know what I'm feeling is hunger or thirst, and I don't have the instincts to put something in my mouth, I will starve or die of thirst. By the description, they only did so when everyone else did, until someone brought it, so that language filled in the gap of memory.
I'm not meaning to argue to be argumentative. I'm actually trying to point out a flaw.
Here is another way of looking at things. Say Garia just happened to be not seen by the wagon train, would she have known what to do to survive. It is possible. She was down a slope. The guy who saw could just as easily been lazy and just glanced around. Though the Beings were smart in thinking these people were good at what they do. But even the best guards and workers can miss things sometimes.
Now with a group of people who don't remember for four days after they wake up, with no instincts to prod them to do things, it is a hole that I can run a railroad through. Sorry, I had to use that.since they need a railroad.
I'll leave it here. I just love this story series and am thinking about writing a side story on another continent and would like to fill a hole I see, before I place ink on paper. And yes I do have other questions as well! LOL!
Wil
Aine
I believe you are taking this just a step too far
All transferees have not lost their basic human needs and instincts.
The days of delay are there to help them get used to the change AND the new environment. This, in MY opinion, is NOT a flaw. The brain and memories are planted and the new bodies and brains need time to grow together.
We have a few instances of ships and their companies being transferred. The ships' company (companies) would not lose their basic human needs, and would have supplies readily to hand, provided the ship wasn't totally wrecked and/or sunk. Not everyone transferred is alone. The Beings expend the vast amount of effort because they have calculated the likely outcome.
As for, luck playing a part with regard to lookouts spotting something, then I contend that those lookouts are being paid to be lookouts. The lives of all in the convoy depend on their sharp eyes. The Beings will have calculated the chances of Garia being seen as being very highly probable. They leave their little transferees in places they will be found, but keep themselves in the background so that their interference goes unnoticed.
Definitely not a flaw as far as I am concerned.
Joolz.
I think on last point..
Then I'm dropping this line.
The Beings are not Gods, at least in the traditional sense. Even they would say this. And that means even they get things wrong. Hence Garia, not Gary Campbell.
And Percentages are percentages. Something can go wrong, even if percentages say otherwise.
Okay, done and dropping this line.
Wil
Aine