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First off, thank you to whoever read the story, I appreciate it.
Now, I need to ask...
When I first wrote the book and submitted it for publishing my editor made me remove the Welsh accent that Jennifer had. I also liberally sprinkled Welsh phrasing’s and sayings as part of her dialogue...to hide a swear word or her true emotions. The use of the accent was to hide her voice timbre but the editor said she was “faking the voice” (even though it was part of who she was after the events in Missoula) but I was told to remove which hurt key moments like her saying “Rwy'n dy garu di” to Matt and he doesn’t understand her or “Mae fy hofrenfad yn llawn llyswennod” because I like Monty Python.
So, should I add it back now that I have full rights to the story?
Comments
Wow...
I understand both sides of this question. One one side, the minimizing "confusing details" makes the story simpler and smoother. Yet, these types of details make the story richer.
I like the details. They give insight to the characters. They also, add a support to the whys and whats that caused the characters followed the path they did.
It's the Welsh
I suspect your editor would have left things as they were if it were Gaelic instead of Welsh for instance. For most readers Welsh would seem incomprehensible and likely harsh sounding to the ear. From the editor's standpoint he or she would think the reader would find the phrases jarring and take the reader out of the moment as unrecognizable to their eye or ear. That's the editor's job. I fault your editor for not suggesting a way around but he probably realized such a change rather than a deletion, would require a much more significant rewrite.
Commentator
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My opinion, for what it's worth...
I do consider injecting foreign phrases to be appropriate in the context for some stories. That said, I also find languages other than English are jarring and even aggravating unless a translation is provided. (I often do so putting the translation in parenthesis.) When I don't know what is being said, by added translation or by inference, I feel it hurts the story.
Boys will be girls... if they're lucky!
Jennifer Sue
I do this
I probably do this in a quarter of the stories I write. Be it French, Vietnamese, Swedish, German, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, Polish, Persian, Greek, Latin or a language I make up, I use foreign words and phrases a lot. But I also include a translation immediately, either expressly or by implication in the narration or the dialog of other characters.
Read Huck Finn to see how Twain did this with some of the more opaque dialects he used. It adds verisimilitude and richness to the story, in my opinion, though I have had complaints. Then again I get complaints when I use perfectly good English words that someone does not recognize. :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
I am probably the one in the
I am probably the one in the position you've mentioned but I don't complain even when I can't find a translation. So I'm not sure if it is the "perfectly good English word" or slang. You aren't the only who does this way so don't take it pesonally. If the translation and/or explanation is given at the end of the story to not corrupt the story line, I am thankful.
About using other languages and/or dialects. They are good when they are ambiguous and sure if there is a translation.
Listen to Erin
Erin is a master of using dialect. Her advice is worth adopting.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
different languages
are really no matter for discussion, if the idea of the author comes across. So if someone (a character) is in character using a certain language nobody else understands due to an emotional situation, it is also quite natural for another character, one who didn't understand, to ask what was said. Now you (through a character) supply a translation.
If it is a longer conversation I do supply translations in brackets, but for me it really breaks the flow of my writing, something I try to avoid. The brackets mostly come during editing.
I actually think, that whatever phrase fits a previously explained mood of the speaker and your story is coherent in that respect, the reader will be able to guess and, if uncertain later on, can always look it up. Maybe I presume a certain intelligence in my audience, but I'd rather do that than to assume they are just uneducated.
The worst, though, you can ever do, is use Google translate to word a foreign phrase. If you don't know the language or someone who does, avoid putting off native speakers or people speaking the concerned language well by blatantly insulting them with gibberish.
Languages are the result of a cultural development of a people, living in their culture often links emotions to certain words of that pecise language and exact translations become impossible. We all have to accept that trait of human nature.
Monique.
Monique S
Fy nethau'n frwydro gyda mwynhad
To pick up on the Python reference. Not my translation, but a copy from an article years ago.
I am one of those who include a LOT of foreign languages in their stories. In Something to Declare, for example, I have the main character involved in conversations in French and Welsh, because that is what is being spoken. I also write in dialect a lot, although certain dialects are effectively foreign languages in their own right. When Jimmy Kerr speaks in broad Geordie to Eric in Ride On, I have Eric reply, "Sorry, I'm from London. We hear funny there"
A longer War involves a lot of Yorkshire speech, and I was faced with a choice between writing the sounds ('writing t'sounds'") or of finding a way to get the rhythm across. I chose to omit all the articles, as that gave the rhythm without looking like yet another Python script. With Cider Without Roses, I did things differently, as I wanted to get the rhythm and structure of French across. The narrator is a French woman who believes she speaks perfect English, so I was writing very formally, and in a stilted way, while translating French swearing word for word (which was fun)
I have had comments about jargon, rather than language, especially when writing about military situations or the police. The problem is that if you are writing dialogue between 'specialists' they will talk in 'specialese', The same is true of people who are from specific places. Google may not be your friend when it comes to translation*, but when someone comes out with a whole series of foreign words and phrases such as 'sophomore', 'senior year', 'homecoming', 'fifth grade', etc, just as an example of one area of confusion, I do one or both of asking a relevantly-foreign person what the word means or looking them up on the internet.
*Google translate... I once helped someone check their story, and in a wonderful piece of Google insanity, the foreign word given for 'run', as in 'run away', actually meant 'run' as in 'work; operate machinery'.
I can see why the editor
Not that I agree or disagree, I can see why the editor would want it removed. The issue is not the language you use snippets of, but the language of your targeted readers. If your target readers ALL know French, then using French phrases are perfectly fine. If the majority of your target readers will not know French, then you need to leave it out or provide some way of translating WITHOUT including the translation with it.
The reason behind this is that it pulls your reader out of the story. Now using common words from major languages (the reason I use French as the example as it is a major world language) is alright as most readers know what "Oui" or "Merci" means or at least can figure out the meaning through the description of the actions the speaker is doing when spoken.
As an example... A smile crossed the small bedraggled girl's face as she realized what the American G.I. has stopped to offer her in his outstretched hand. Taking the candy bar form his hand, she stepped back preforming a small curtsy, "Merci!"
Pretty obvious she was saying thank you, even to one of us dumb Americans :)
The other option is to have someone there in the scene that does understand the language and provides some type of translation for others in the scene and the readers. Let's finished off the small scene of the WW2 soldier and the french girl with this example;
The soldier watched the little girl run off into the crowds that lined the street waving as row after row of the liberating soldiers marched up the cobblestone street. Running back to his place in line he leaned over and asked, "Hey Sarge, what does 'mercy' mean in French?"
It would finish by the 'Sarge' explaining it translates to, 'Thank you'
Of course unnecessary since it is one of those French words that most have heard before, and even in a less common language her actions still show that she is displaying gratitude so the translation still would not be needed unless her actions or way of speaking gave the soldier the idea that she was ungrateful.
Now had the small girl spat out the words, "qatlho', chaq Hoch may' quv!" The soldier might take offense as the way she spoke unless he knew Klingon or someone translated for him. And unless the reader was a dyed in the wool Trekkie, they would have no idea what she said either.
Cursing in another language is something that should not be done unless you speak it like a native, not fluently, but as a native speaker. This is because cursing is a slang and calling someone a name in one language can mean an entirely different thing than you meant.
Using Klingon as the example as I find it a fun made up language to play with especially when it comes to insults. Telling a Klingon that their mother wears combat boots would probably get you a reply of ,"Of course she does, doesn't eveyone's mom?"
And a Klingon telling a Human, "Hab SoSlI' Quch!" Which by the way is one of the worst Klingon insults in their language, translates directly to, "Your mother has a smooth forehead." Really loses its meaning.
We the willing, led by the unsure. Have been doing so much with so little for so long,
We are now qualified to do anything with nothing.
Here is an example of what I
Here is an example of what I had in the original book.
The idea I had for Jen’s voice was based on the voice of Charlotte Church (remember, I started writing this in 2001). I also heavily had to edit out the word “mum”:
"Good night, Jen."
"Nos da."
"What does that mean?"
"It means, 'good night'."
"Nos da," he attempted to say it, but failed miserably.
"Keep at it. I have another one for you to try though."
"Okay, what is it?"
"Dw i’n dy garu di"
"Gesundheit."
Works fine for me!
Yup. Does dim probs 'da fi.
Jen should meet my Powell family.