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I am getting very frustrated at the lack of spell checking on this site, (and others).
Do people not proof read and spell check before posting?
Lately in many of the stories I read I see the wrong word used or major spelling errors.
Now I am aware that not all people were brought up using the English language. But why not have a native English speaker go over the stories before submission?
I seldom see punctuation errors, which is good.
So, I since I am not part of the problem, I will be part of the solution.
As time permits,I will volunteer to proof read if someone needs it.
Lynna B
Comments
a valid point
but i think you are missing the idea here. most of the authors here write from the heart. not all have programs they write in, then transfer to here, they write it on the site, from what i have seen, the site has some capability in that regard. some are done on their PHONES or tablets. also some do NOT want to give others access to their stories for proof reading (i have also offered on occasion when i have the time), either from bad experiences here or other sites, or because it is who they are, how they wrote it, and its for THEM, not as much for us the readers.
yes most hope you enjoy their writing, and some take it personally if a story seems to flounder, but some use it as therapy, a lot of what happens is personal to them or those they know. it is a VOLUNTEER type issue. when someone is giving of their time and abilities, be more understanding of what is being done, not HOW it is being done perhaps? as someone who works a minimum of 52 hours a week for pay, and then spends anywhere from 8 to 20 ADDITIONAL hours volunteering to help the community or individuals IN the community, for no compensation, often spending my hard earned dollars as they have a lot less than I do, or the group has no funds, etc, i appreciate thanks, but dont expect it, or being paid back, again if it happens great, more i can help OTHERS with. but if someone started complaining because i didnt spend ENOUGH money or time with them, i would be VERY upset honestly.
I understand your frustration as some self published authors on Kindle etc have similar issues, and i PAY for those, but minimal pricing compared to the novels I pay full price for all of that fancy spell checking etc (and yet there are STILL typo's, wrong words, microsoft is NOT so perfect on that part by any means, lol) so its NOT just here or other sites. a lot of people see typo's or wrong words and go right past them, as their brain compensates for what is there vs what SHOULD be there, so they dont really care. some are NOT so forgiving, or as easily compensate.
as an avid reader i have MANY times written things (no stories, just posts, etc) and re read it at least once, and i STILL make errors, because my MIND knows what i meant and i dont notice it. i am sure its the same for authors everywhere, and those who write very PROLIFICALLY even more so, as they are more time pressed (by their own feelings more than anything else, they try to keep a schedule) just ask microsoft after windows 95 came out, then 98, millennium, vista, and so on.
just a few thoughts.
Teresa L.
A response on English language usage.
I do edit and spell check for the record, but I tend to miss things. Other errors are left in on purpose, as who actually speaks in perfectly grammatical English?
But feel free to call me on it as you come across it; the chances are I just missed it, and if not, I'll still thank you for the criticism.
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To be honest
it isn't very diplomatic to insult people's work and then volunteer to make it better.
Commentator
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To be honest
She wasn't insulting people's work. She spoke about spelling errors, which are often easily fixed, and even offered to help.
I don't think she is talking about one or two errors, but significant numbers of often glaring mistakes.
Many people seem to be very precious about what they have written and can't take the slightest criticism, no matter how well intentioned or justified, of it. Frankly this attitude is a lot more offensive than Lynna B's.
Maria I will say that Lynna
Maria I will say that Lynna was inconsiderate. She assumed that people spelling or grammar are not up to her standards are not native English speakers. That does imply that they do not have a grasp of English. Lynna is not taking into account that the sections of the brain which deal with reading, writing, speaking and listening are not the same. So if one is not writing for a long time they will be rusty at it.
With me writing has always has been my weakest subject and I have not done any creative writing in almost a decade before I started writing. I do this for fun and know that my writing is not close to being at the level of being publish. I am a hack pulp writer. I want to entertain people and get my thoughts out there on subjects.
I think that Lynna had good intentions and went about it wrong. Instead of making a blog posting about this gripe she should had pick a story she really liked and offer to edit it for the author. It would had led to less of a miscommunication, people would not had gotten defensive of their work and lastly new friendships could be formed.
I also know that I am the pot calling the kettle black on saying she went about this wrong. There is so much in life I had gone about in the wrong manner and people can call me out on it. I am just a blowhard and also I see how people can easily take offense to what she said.
Condescending
You're right. But it's her attitude as with how she framed herself as not being the problem. She doesn't even realize what the problem is for some as with a claim of wanting to be a part of the solution. Normally I try not to judge, but here she failed to even do her own check, thus leaving herself open to ridicule.
I'm not perfect either in my writing, but I try for the best and then once posted, I somehow see the errors that I've missed, be that a way I had structured a sentence, missed an error or failed to properly convey my meaning.
If her meaning was to come across as wanting to be helpful, not spiteful, than I'd say she failed.
For pity sakes
I can understand your high need for order, however there are over 7 billion bad spellers on this planet. From the UK to the USA, and somewhat to Canada and Australia there are differences in spellings and usages that will drive you bats. Having travelled a bit, but not enough to suit my taste, I welcome the variety, and recommend that you simply enjoy yourself.
Now when you are speaking of language
Are you speaking of English that is spoken in the UK or America? Are you talking about common spellings that were changed over when Webster redid the spelling of words to differentiate us from our brethren?
Or are you saying as others have already said of writing from the hip in getting their stories out. How about the characterization of ones speech? Not everyone talks the Kings language or even upper or Harvard/Yale or so forth.
Or are you talking about how others do a spellcheck but don't have the money or resources to afford or want a spell checker that is only half-ass as it tries to make you write a damn thesis and not a story.
Nobody's perfect and I'll even admit I missed some on a story I was editing. Why? Because it made sense to me and after reading a story over 3-9 times it becomes a quick scan.
Now to fix your affliction of bad spelling I guess we could all just do one thing. Quit writing or just quit posting it here. But that's not what this place is for.
I helped one and I asked which version was it going to be published in. The UK or USA. Many attacked the writer due to several errors not knowing the reason why. I won't go here on why. I did my best and for me I think her idea's as with what she wanted to convey came out nicely.
But since I'm not paying anything for it, or any other stories for that matter. I got my money's worth.
Oh and check that last paragraph of yours. It was a little hard to understand.
The Love Of Words
English is a second language for me, though most do not know it. Different words are like tasting bits of different kinds of candy and I purposely mix words from different languages simply because a certain word in another language is better than any word in the language I am currently using. Plonker is better than turd, yallah is more expressive than a half dozen other words, and de nada is fun too, though if you say danada, it means something entirely different. :)
One thing to remember
"We'un's that be writtn' them thar scribblin' ain't seeun a plug nickel and ain't bean askin' fer one neither."
Okay all joking aside, even the best spell checker will miss incorrect word useage, such as one of my worst offending mistakes of typing "form" when I am thinking "from"
But I think the majority of us that post here have no problem receiving a PM saying "Hey you made a mistake here and it should have read the following.
Now character dialogue is another thing, like the first sentence I wrote that is as close an approximation to how someone from Appalachia actually sounds that I can type and thus is correct within the context that it is displayed.
We the willing, led by the unsure. Have been doing so much with so little for so long,
We are now qualified to do anything with nothing.
In an attempt to remain
In an attempt to remain neutral, on my spell check I can set it for which ever country I'm posting it. Some days I set it for UK, other days for the land of Oz. Most days, USA. I can understand your frustration when a story's flow is interrupted, but no one is paying us to write, if it's that bad, stop and read another story.
PS: Have you posted a story lately?
Misspelling as Pun
Sometimes, an error (or apparent error) is introduced deliberately. For example, one of my stalled stories has a container labelled, "Waist Disposal". It's used in a magic show.
-- Daphne Xu
Actually
I'm beginning to enjoy some of the less polished stories more and more. I feel honored that a writer would allow me to read a rougher version that shows their gems as well as their flaws. Being that the authors are gifting their talents here, it seems to make me feel that it's more personal from the author.
Wendy K
So many dislike comments
We're encouraged to write comments on stories.
To be honest, I rarely do as if I wrote my true feelings, some authors would be discouraged and upset.
Now Lynna has written a general comment which applies to many stories and she is berated for daring to comment! If we can't take criticism, why don't we agree to get rid of the comment system altogether?
I, too, think it's a shame that so many stories are (in my opinion) ruined by poor English, when almost every word processing system has a reasonable spell checker.
Writers are upset when few people read, enjoy and comment on their story but if they won't do simple things to improve their writing such as using a spell checker, they only have themselves to blame.
It is not just spelling
The English Language (love it or hate it) has a good number of words that while sounding the same are spelt differently. It also has words that are spelt the same but are pronounced differently.
As a Dsylexic, I do find myself using the wrong word. i.e. the word sounds right but I've used the wrong version (different but correct spelling) for the context.
Typos also creep in not matter how many times you go over the text.
I look at comments on my writing that point out errors in my prose in two ways
1) Those that have pointed out a genuine mistake
2) Those that are trying to make my words read like they wrote it....... ????
If the 1) are helpful then I'll make the correction but in the main, those that fall into category 2) get ignored.
If I am making comments about the story that are directly addressed to the author then I PM them and don't make them public. There is nothing worse than getting into a Grammar flame war in public. That, I know has put a few people off posting.
If you follow the rules of this place then no one should get their backs up/throw their toys out of the pram.
Samantha
To be honest..,
(Which I always am), it's not so much bad English that puts me off reading a story, it's a bad beginning - the kind where the author fills it with background eg giving the life history of the protagonist before all other things.
Even so, I never say that in a comment as I think most authors will be upset by my words.
writing
Don't see any stories by you so no likes no loves and no thanks your attitude sucks when I think how hard theses authors work to write a story gentle correction of spelling or syntax only when asked for as for word choice well I use 8 languages I refuse to comment on spellings and syntax I personally can craft many forms of art but writing is not one of them is writing so please don't disturb the flow of a good source of stories to read. look at the cost to you and others and stop being a hater because you can not write your self you sound like a self righteous English teacher the type that writes on the black board 7ound well a 7 is not a F while in school I had 2 such teachers fired and stripped of their teaching certs and credentials.While in grades K-12 I personally got 17 such teachers fired all for things like potpuri of lit. is not just Harlequin romance novels I would ask that you apologise to all writers on this site. a better way to offer the skills of proof reading would have been just offer to do proof reading for free. Have a good day and enjoy life.
Have a good day and enjoy life.
I Can Understand Your Frustration
BUT as has already been pointed out these stories are written from the heart and the authors simply do not want interference; another point is that are you actually paying for these stories? Again I fully understand you getting annoyed and feeling frustrated but live and let live.
I know that I am not good at spelling or grammar (or should that be grandma?) and the evil part of me makes me even worse just to annoy the kind folk who offer assistance - not to slap them in the face but for my own twisted gratification. Also a lot of writers write as they speak to polish (that is in shine not the country that would have a capital P) their (or should that be there?) story up looses something for them.
The English language is a magical language constantly evolving and supposedly one of the hardest to learn as a second tongue (or is that tong?) it has grown (or groan?) from many languages and dialects even in the UK (home of English) people from different areas have problems understanding each other different words mean different things in different areas and in different countries.
Around here today a lot of folk will be mafted - is that a correct word? Around here it's in common usage.
A little anecdote about spelling and spell check a friend of mine who is next thing to a genius (or is that genus?) simple cannot spell and to overcome this he adds his words to the spell check - he thinks he's right hence some of him memo's are amazing to read.
All in all I understand your annoyance and frustration and think your offer of help is laudable and I hope some authors take you up on your kind offer.
Christina
It is easier to spot others mistakes than your own.
I see those errors as well in all the stories. But I'm not frustrated by it, when a person reads there own work the will see what they intended to write not the errors or mistakes. With most people they see a word and do not even read the whole word and the brain fills in the gaps. Also finding people to proof read stories and basically act as an editor is difficult, I tried to help an author on BC before and my Real World life got in the way. We are reading these stories for free so I am not going to complain. Now if you were reading a published story you paid for and it as full of errors that you can complain about, if you wish.
"Cortana is watching you!"
Thanks for Stating Your Opinion
Your opinion matters. Those who are criticizing your opinion need to re-think their purpose.
However -- consider a different perspective.
There are great storytellers and there are great technical writers. Sometimes the two skills are combined, but only rarely. Being a storyteller is much more important than being a great technician. Examples . . . Dan Brown, Suzanne Collins, or John Grisham.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Thank you, Jill, for finding the middle ground!
I admit to being one of those "Anal" individuals who even proofreads her own e-mails.
I truly can't stomach the writers that you mention, due to their horrid prose and composition. They ARE great storytellers! John Grisham's books, for instance, do make good film scripts, Although I suspect considerable editing by someone else.
There are some great writers here who write exceptional prose. There are writers here who write good stories, but are just sloppy about their spelling and punctuation. However, there are also abysmal writers who have trouble even writing an understandable sentence.
My solution is to come up with a list, in my head as yet, of writers that I will simply not read, no matter how intriguing they sound. This has eased my indigestion considerably. I don't know if the ignore function works for stories as well as comments, but if it does it would be of great use to those of us for whom writing from the heart is simply not enough.
Liz
Bad grammar or spelling
I will be the first to admit that I construct my sentences wrong or misspell a word or two. However, even I have seen or read peoples stories that were missing words or written a way that it shouldn't have been written. I've learned to over look these mistakes and mentally correct those stories in my head when I read them. Now, I do get confused by 1st,2nd and 3rd person point of view when I write. So, I try to be careful about how the story sounds. Yes, I do rush things and post them here before I have someone go over the stories. There are several stories and authors here I have a lot of respect for and have been encouraged to write my own stories or continue stories I have written. Some of them I have given up on because I knew they would never see the light of day.
Still, as much as I hate saying this I have to agree with Liz. If a story doesn't grab you or that persons english is so bad that you can't enjoy the story, than leave it. If nothing else send a message to the author with helpful corrections like so many here have done for me. You said that you are willing to help them, so start there. If they take it so be it, if they don't than that's their decision.
Even some of my favorite authors here. I stop reading their works after I find the story not really of interest to me any more. These are authors I really like too. Another reason is, so I don't get their story in my head and than start writing mine and notice I stole some of their ideas or situations and put them in my stories. Sometimes there is a similarity, but not exactly.
Still, every author here does enjoy feedback from their readers and anything that can make us better is always welcome.
If there's a book that you want to read, but it hasn't been written yet, then you must write it.”
― Toni Morrison
Good thought, Angela!
And you picked three great examples. :)
I personally cannot read Dan Brown. He makes my editor gland itch. But lordy, when someone adapts one of his stories, they are quite often excellent! Suzanne Collins is readable but enjoying her stuff is almost an artform itself. And I LOVE John Grisham. His style is uneven, his prose sometimes limps, once in a while you have to read a paragraph three times to get the sense but he has a story to tell and he knows it!
Is it a matter of taste? Perhaps. Dan Brown writes thrillers. To me he seems to be trying to ornament a rocket. He loses me in details that have no meaning and he loses me fast; I've never gotten more than thirty pages into a Dan Brown book before physically losing the book!
Suzanne Collins writes potboiler romance. Losing focus on character-driven action while negotiating the twists of plot appears to be her weakness. (Been a while since I read her.) She's fun but only if you approach her with the right expectations.
John Grisham examines the intricacies of character interaction, but you can lose sight of the plot while meandering through his descriptions and digressions, entertaining though they may be. Motive! Tons of motive for most of his characters. But he seldom tells you anyone's motive, he just shows you what they are doing and how they arrived at that point.
As for simple mistakes, there's a sign above my desk: Ytpos Hapepn. :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
sorry
Sorry I thought that you were agreeing with the original OP Have a good day and enjoy life.
Have a good day and enjoy life.
What happened to "keep it friendly?"
And no, I'm not talking about the OP here.
Honestly, editing IS a big problem with a lot of stories on the site (and a large reason I cannot read nearly as many tales as I used to.) While I can get people not being happy with the way that Lynna phrased her offer, especially given the grammatical/syntax/format errors present in her own post, it is no reason to be so harsh in your own responses.
Bullying or insulting someone else simply because you don't agree with them is never an effective solution, and accomplishes nothing but to alienate others and maintain willful ignorance.
There are some INCREDIBLY talented authors here whose work is marred, not by the occasional typo or syntax error, but by vast swathes of them. Several of these authors not only reject help correcting such things, but actively rail against anyone who dares mention them, even in PM (and trust me, I'd know about that.) I am far from error-free in my own work, but perfection and adequacy are two very different expectations, and to argue that the latter is not necessary because the former isn't possible as I've seen many do on the site is to enable others to get away with not having to improve.
BCTS is a safe place, yes. But, it is also a writing site, and as such criticism, when intended well, should be not only expected, but encouraged. Too often you see responses here to criticism, both from those receiving that criticism and from self-appointed defenders, that treat those who wish to help others improve as though they were instead wanting to stifle their creativity or stop the author writing at all. Personally, I feel that the opposite is true: as people we thrive on adversity, and only by facing that adversity and conquering it do we grow or, indeed, prove our worth, both to ourselves and others. As members of BCTS, we often will have to walk a narrow path to provide such critical adversity without being cruel about it, but that path is hardly so narrow as to not exist.
I can understand not appreciating the way the original poster phrased what they said, but being cruel in our own responses accomplishes nothing of worth, and defending a practice that we know is wrong is equally as problematic.
Melanie E.
Very well said
I have been appalled at the reaction of many who seem to see objective criticism as offensive.
If these comments had been levelled at a specific person, I can understand that that person might be offended, even though not intended. I personally dislike public criticism to the point where I turn off public comments on most of my stories.
But the comments were expressed generally.
Could I suggest that was the problem. By not aiming the comments at a specific person, everyone feels it's a personal criticism of themselves and the best form of defence is attack.
well said
The damage was done before help was offered can Lynna or any body undo the damage like I said I have personal problems in the English area which can not be fixed due to people behaving as Lynna did. offer help first not complaints. have a good day and enjoy life.
Have a good day and enjoy life.
Not aimed at you or anyone else
Lynna didn't mention your name or that of anyone else. I don't think I've read any of your work but presumably, you identify yourself as having problems with English. So how does Lynna saying she has a problem with bad English "damage" you?
After all, if you recognise your English is a problem, why should someone else saying that bad English is a problem be wrong? You're agreeing with each other, except that she is talking generally and you're talking personally.
Charlotte part of the
Charlotte part of the offensive people are taking is how arrogant Lynna came off. Saying she is the solution came off as being arrogant. Also I do take up offer for help but how bad my writing is not an problem. I do this for fun, I can write an 8,000 word story in a day while doing other things. I work hard at improving my writing but I am not going to make my hobby feel like work. Lynna might be annoyed by bad writing but putting up with a story with misspelling, bad grammar, and is hard to read is a first world problem. It is trivial with an easy solution.
I cannot blame one person who took what she wrote as being negative. I did not for if I do not know people I try to always take what they say in a positive light. Once I know someone then I go on my opinion of them to base forming my opinion of what they said. I also know that if what they say comes off as negative I will see the worse in them unless they can see why I took what they said in a negative manner. This is for I would lose respect for the person.
That poor horse
We flog this poor horse every six months or so, is it even still breathing? ;-)
There are some stories that have such poor spelling that my brain kicks me straight out of them. In the past I have proofread/edited for several authors that post here, in general they seem to be happy. I always import the file to Word, as I can set it up to show suggested changes as well as spelling changes. This gives the author a chance to evaluate the suggestions and accept as much or as little as they want.
As it is usually easier to spot errors in somebody else's work than my own, I normally have at least one other person check my work. Sonetimes that has worked well, sometimes it hasn't.
I hate to say it, there is one site that carries a particular story theme, and some of the stories are just lousy, full of spelling and grammer errors. I contacted one writer and offered to proofread one story and send it to her to evalute. If she liked it I would proof her other stories and she would be free use as much or as little as she liked. She turned me down, not very nicely, and that was fine, I offered, she rejected, the end. What got to me was her attitude that the stories were done and she didn't care about corrections. I later got much the same response from others there. Like I said before, I'm offering, they are not obligated to accept.
But the idea that they just couldn't be bothered to do any cleanup at all, screw the readers, seemed pretty arrogant. It doesn't matter how good the story is if you've run off your readers. Everbody talks about the author having no obligation, nobody paid them to write. Well, I see an implied contract between the writer and reader. My personal belief is that I am obligated to put out my best work for the reader. If I don't have any respect for the reader why should I expect any respect from the reader?
That's my two cents worth. Take it or leave it, that's your choice.
"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin
poor horse
You offer help allow them to choose the level of help very good of you the rejections are probably because some one else poisoned the well. It is really hard to accept help after harsh criticism even when it is a different party. I commend your actions. Have a good day and enjoy life.
Have a good day and enjoy life.
Own cross to bear.
On one hand I agree with what you say. On the other I'm very probably one of those authors you spoke of. Yes I do have problems with punctuation, spelling, and grammar. I'm both dyslexic and deaf while I agree these are not excuses. Like many in my position, I've been treated as dumb by my peers. So asking for help doesn't really come easy. I think it's also important to realize that there is no such thing as perfect grammar. People pause for many reasons and putting that into writing. For me is difficult, I can lip read fairly well fortunately so that helps. I do think that even if you comment on punctuation etc. it's still easy to be positive about it. My Father-in-law is a retired principal/head teacher. Seems to think that I probably write as I would sign. That in itself creates problems but, ones that only I can overcome.
I'm an American living in the UK and I find myself caught in three different cultures. I was raised in Boston Mass so there you have the classy East Coast girl lol. I now live just outside London with my husband and our five kids, all born in the UK. Add to that the fact I'm deaf and living in a foreign Country. I was raised learning ASL (American Sign Language). I'm in the process of learning BSL which is quite a bit different from ASL
Now you can see how I felt The reason I bring all this up is that. I tried to do this alone because that's how I've always had to face things. The majority of people that read what I wrote. Looked past the errors although they did mention them which was the right thing to do. But they gave me suggestions and one guy even edited and proofread my rewrite. It was the positive responses that encouraged me. That to me is what many people on this site are about. So yes I agree there maybe some grammatical errors in some stories but try to understand. Many people have their own personal reasons and maybe ashamed of them
Crosses
The crosses we bear make us stronger but do not improve quality of life just keep working on the sign language I speak read and write multiple languages also sign American British Australian German and International sign language you will get it Queens English and American English are vastly different just keep trying you will get there. Have a good day and enjoy life.
Have a good day and enjoy life.