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here's somewhat of a sticky issue for those between the genders but i have to wonder if the boy since they using the male pronouns had any of the legal documents one might need for such a photo ??
http://news.msn.com/us/south-carolina-boy-sues-over-makeup-r...
Comments
Sadly it takes time to adjust laws
The young lady in question ran into the existing laws and into bureaucrats who are unwilling to adjust. I'm not sure how this can be handled in today's society? My heart goes out to the young girl who only wants to be herself. Yet can one imagine a Muslim in a burka with only the eyes showing asking the same thing?
With the legal help behind her I strongly suspect the young lady will receive a new driver's license. She has evidence of time on her side this is actually her normal self. For all those who are female still driving with a "male" driver's license. Drive carefully. When pulled over tell the officer one is transgender or transvestite whatever is the case. Above all be polite and respectful. Usually things go smoothly from there unless it is an egrarious offense where one is headed to jail for the night. That's in my part of the world.
True story, "Lisa" stopped by a military installation to take pictures of "airplane". Swarmed by MPs. The whole mixed up license and all. Confusion all around. She had a lot of fun and was treated respectfully. MPs more than polite, and interested. She could come back anytime she wanted but don't bring a camera. AND make sure it was same time on their duty shift.
I'm sure they would all make sure to swarm her again.
have fun with life
it's too short to take it seriously
always,
Barb
Oklahoma born and raised cowgirl
It's a bloomin' waste, I tell you!
I just have to say that even sans makeup, this dude still looks like a girl. It pisses me off that I have to work so hard at it and "he/she" just does it naturally. P:(
I had a similar incident in getting my DL photo done. They wanted me to remove my Hijab for the photo. I went home and found a Federal Court challenge that made them let me get the photo with the Hijab.
I hope that this suit is successful.
Gwen
While I sympathize with this kid,
there's an old "saw" that might have helped her situation. "Proper planning prevents poor performance." or something like that.
When I got my new Driver's License, I had all the proper paperwork from my Endo, my shrink, my therapist, and the court order certifying my name change. The officials took one brief look at all the papers, nodded their heads, and put the big "F" on my new license after they took my new pic. I was presenting completely female and no one asked me to remove any of my makeup. I need to state also that I had NO surgery at that point in time.
Now, I will say that this was in New York State, and the laws may differ state to state. From a friend of mine, I gather that South Carolina makes it rather difficult for Trans folks to get any help in becoming who they believe they truly are. Having said that, if this kid had had the proper documents, things MIGHT have gone differently.
I'm not saying that S.C. was correct or right in doing what they did. I AM saying that if one is going to embrace the trans life, one needs to make the proper steps in the proper order, regardless of where they live.
What I've said here might draw some flames. I'm prepared for that as well. While emotions might run high over what happened to this kid, sometimes the truth outweighs emotion, and proper planning CAN make a difference in what happens.
Catherine Linda Michel
As a T-woman, I do have a Y chromosome... it's just in cursive, pink script.
Not everyone wants to go with the flow
Cathy, Make it official with official papers from professionals? More lives ruled by more bureaucrats Cathy. Letting others dictate our lives for us? Layer upon layer of bureaucracy and where does it stop? When did we give up so much of our lives, for so little, to so few?
Whatever happened to this is my life. Let me live it the way I want, stop trying to dictate my life to me? As long as I don't hurt anyone else, leave me alone.
Daddy told me if you don't know how to do a job, start it anyway. Someone will come along and tell you how even when they don't know themselves. There are always those who want to rule another's life.
Oklahoma born and raised cowgirl
I have to respectfully disagree, Barbie.
If one is going to get some kind of official document that REQUIRES a photo, one needs to have the proper documented backup so there is no question as to who one is and what they ALWAYS look like, or most often look like. The whole purpose of the photo on a driver's license is for the sole purpose of verification that the person driving the car is the one to whom the license belongs.
As much as we WISH something to be, we still have to comply with the rules as they ARE. Non-compliance invites questions and sometimes, non-issue of the required document. I'm certain the rule in question here is one which was DESIGNED to thwart criminals, or people who have been denied or have lost their licenses due to numerous violations, or are known felons who are not allowed the privilege of driving. If one is pulled over by a law enforcement individual, the license photo is positive identification that the driver is who they purport to be, thus making it simpler for the LEO to confirm their identity.
Personally I don't want to be in the position of being on the road in my car while some ne'er do well is out there with a license he or she shouldn't have. It's already bad enough to drive without compounding the task by having people out there who aren't who their license says they are.
I WILL agree that some of the rules are seemingly vague and there seems to be no logical reason for the type of restrictions on appearance. For example, should some one who dyes their hair several times a year be required to appear for their photo ONLY with their natural color? Should makeup alone be the deciding factor? Suppose someone loses their hair, or shaves their head after being issued their license. Should they be required to then get a new photo?
Whatever the reasons are, the rules are what they are and if one doesn't abide by them, then one runs the risk of not getting the documentation they require, as in this particular case.
IF this male had had documentation that confirmed that he habitually wore the makeup, it might have gone differently for him. Like it or not, rules are rules. Abide by them and you stand a much better chance to get what you want or need. Ignore them and you run the risk of NOT getting what you want or need.
This person ignored the rules and, as a result, was denied his drivers license. My premise stands proven.
Respectfully, your editor,
Catherine Linda Michel
As a T-woman, I do have a Y chromosome... it's just in cursive, pink script.
Positive ID?
Maybe.. Maybe not... In my youth, I used to have people come up to me and ask for my autograph, quite often thinking (falsely, I hasten to add) that I was Mary Travers of the singing group Peter, Paul and Mary. It used to irritate me, because the real Mary Travers was ten years older than I was, and didn’t look much like me at all, in my opinion, aside from being tall*, with long blonde hair that was pretty much straight as a string, and blue eyes, so go figure.
Eye witness testimony is notoriously inaccurate, because our perceptions are made up of random confluences of expectations, assumptions, circumstances, and either distractions or coincidence. I worked in the San Francisco theatre, and had been on television (nothing much, just local shows, including a little gig on Creature Features with Bob Wilkins, the "Late Night" Monster Movie show that was actually recorded entirely during normal daylight hours, usually in the early afternoon – sorry to burst any bubbles) so the fact is that *lots* of people in the SF Bay Area were fairly familiar with my face and general appearance, even if they couldn’t quite place me, or placed me in entirely fictitious contexts, like one member of a rather famous folk singing group.
Perhaps policemen are more skilled than most of us at making eye-witness identifications, but we’re all of us human, and I suspect that there are just as many flying saucer reports from policemen as there are from other random occupations. We know from The Innocence Project http://www.innocenceproject.org/ that they do make mistakes from time to time, so I suspect that photos are as fallible as any other form of ID, useful for crude sorting, but essentially worthless as absolute proof.
We keep coming up with technologies which we (collectively) suppose will finally resolve all doubts, but they keep coming up short when people start looking more carefully at the supposed "magic." Photo Ids were once supposed to be infallible, as were fingerprints and DNA testing, but all have fallen short when put to the test. In fact, all these technologies are about as useful as Voodoo, in that their primary appeal is psychological.
––––––––
* She was five ten and a bit. I was five eleven (I think I’ve been squished down a bit by gravity since, but I resist knowing – I hate to think that I’m sagging quite that badly)
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
As bad as this is?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/19/rachel-pepe-school_...
A transgender student who was reportedly told she would not be allowed back at school because of her new gender identity scored a victory Monday evening.
Rachel Pepe, 13, previously attended Thorne Middle School in New Jersey as a male student. However, when her mother told a school official she would be returning to the classroom this year as Rachel, the school reportedly said she would not be allowed back and that it would not find her an alternative school to attend, according to New Jersey's Asbury Park Press.
The instructions were that she could only return to school as Brian, and that she not only was required to dress as a boy but 'act like a boy.'
"He was going to school last year as Brian," Angela Peters, Rachel's mother, told the outlet, adding that her daughter had been suffering from depression. "How can I send her back as Rachel? And I am not sending her back as Brian because the depression will start again."
On Monday evening, however, the superintendent of the school district, William O. George, said he would work with staff to make sure Rachel could attend school in a safe environment. According to Garden State Equality, George said Middletown Township Public Schools staff would undergo lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender sensitivity training.
Love, Andrea Lena
Cross-gerndered photos
Why on earth does it matter whether ANYONE looks masculine or feminine in a driver's licence photo?? They're just supposed to identify - to look like the person.
What's next? Everyone has to remove all makeup and pull their hair tightly back so there's no "disguising" their true identity?
I think the supposition is
that he looks different enough to NOT fit the photo if he didnt wear makeup, etc. it could just be prejudice, hard to tell. they dont let Goth persons wear their makeup for photo ids do they?
i think one solution is to allow him to have that pic on his license but they need one in the system without, that would solve that concern, if the system is capable of doing that of course, some i know are, but i dont know if theirs is.
Teresa
Teresa L.
Double and triple-standards
Why aren't girls and women required to remove all their makeup and look like their "real" selves?
Two photos in the DMV system
I don't know of a DMV system that allows more than one photo to be linked with a driver's license. The license photo is there to help show that the DL belongs to the person presenting it. I'm thinking that since the male was non-gender conforming by wearing makeup and such, that the person behind the counter rejected simply for that reason, non-gender conformation. It would be more along the line of Robin Williams trying to get a DL with his name on it while dressed up as Mrs. Doubtfire.
Nothing more sinister than that.
SC DMV requires a full face photo, without head coverings, so it plays merry hob with strict Muslim women who wear head to ground burkas and veils. That's not religious intolerance or prejudice, it's just the law.
I quite agree.
I suppose that next there will be regs requiring people to shave their beards and/or mustaches and anyone who dyes their hair will have to stop and return to their natural color. Let's not even consider those who have had, or those who need/want plastic surgery.
I agree wholeheartedly with laws requiring that one not conceal their true identity, but if one's true identity differs from their birth gender, and IF they present as their CHOSEN gender 100% of the time, I see no reason to deny them the right to be photoed as who they really are!
Again, laws differ from state to state. Sooner or later, a more secure/accurate means to identify everyone, but until then, we have to live with and deal with what IS, not what we WANT, so again, "proper planning etc." If one is going to present as a different gender from the one in which they were born, then have the proper backup paperwork to support that decision. THEN, if some overzealous "civil servant" wants or tries to deny something like a photo, THEN one has legal recourse.
Catherine Linda Michel
As a T-woman, I do have a Y chromosome... it's just in cursive, pink script.
one little point i think some of you missed
this is NOT a lady. he considers himself male, uses male pronouns and is NOT transitioning. he just likes to wear female attire and wear makeup, it is, according to him and his mother, his normal look. the issue i think is that the id says male everywhere, but has a female looking pic.
one solution i mentioned below, is to allow two pics, keep the one now in the system so an officer can call it up if necessary, and let him have the female one for his id. i dont know if the computer systems will allow that or not is the only limiting factor, and how many of the officers have that equipment in their car to verify it.
teresa
Teresa L.
And..?
The way we look is the way we look. Why this case? Why this person? DMV pictures are a simple snap of the way we look that day we pose at the DMV. However we look.
Except for feminine-looking males, apparently.
The point Teresa was making
Teresa was just pointing out to all the people saying "you go girl" etc that the subject considers themselves male so we should respect that in the same way as we hope others respect those of us who consider themselves female.
You're totally right the pictures on ID represent us on one day out of our life, is it the job of the issuing agency to make sure that photo represents us for a period of time or is it down to officials checking a photo that looks different to say "I'm not convinced this photo is of you" and detain someone while they verify the identity.
-
You can't choose your relatives but you can choose your family.
Gender non-compliant.
There used to be a bunch of terms for all the various gender designations. He, Her, Hir, Shim, and a whole bunch others. I usually just tell people I am Alien, or certainly not Homo Sapiens. One of these days, in a millennia or two, should we survive, maybe none of this will matter.
"In The Year 2525" I think that girl and boy babies will still be born, but they will not form secondary sexual charictaristics until they are married and want to procreate. Then both of them will take a pill, and the girl will start her menses, and the boys junk will start putting along. They'll have 2.1 children, unless they are Mormon, then they'll have an even Dozen.
After the designated family is established, the parents will take another pill and the whole business will just shut down. No wife beating, no philandering, or sexual harassment. Err, maybe that will prove too boring?
Didn't miss the "Him" or "Her"
Teresa,
One way or another the person is considered trans whether trans gender or trans vestite. Thus discrimination is showing in the law of photo ID if not allowed to present one's self as they are. Boy or girl, if stopped and the officer can't make out the distinction if it is the person in the photo they need to borrow my glasses.
Oklahoma born and raised cowgirl
What About Burqas?
Does a photo ID take account of women wearing burqas?
Joanne
Around the face not across it
The guidance issued with a UK passport application says and illustrates head-coverings being worn but leaving the entirety of the face uncovered and not cast in shadow, that applies to all veils, scarfs, hats etc.
I would hope the situation is similar across Western Europe and North America but I'm expecting someone to prove me wrong.
-
You can't choose your relatives but you can choose your family.
Burkas
SC DMV requires a full face photo, without head coverings. The veil and headscarf have to come off. A picture of a pair of eyes with glasses can't serve as official identification.
In the Gulf
Passports and other ID are indeed issued with veiled pictures. In Saudi, of course, the issue of driving licences is irrelevant for women.
Personaly
I think the issue is a lot simpler then people are making it.
There are two very simple in consistencies.
Plus an assumption that compounds the problem.
1) Different standards for those designated male then those designated female.
2) The photo they are making him use will look different then he actually will look normally.
A) Only women wear makeup.
About 1:
Ignoring "A" for the moment, This unfair unequal treatment, a woman can possibly look as different made up compared not made up as the boy in question, there is an awful lot a variation on how much makeup someone needs or feels they need.
About 2:
The logical point of the the rules is that the photo should make it easy to tell that the person holding the license is the person it is for. which means to be actually most useful it should look like they normally look. They required him to use a photo that looks different then he normally looks actually defeating the "intended" purpose.
About A:
Thus assumption is quite stupid, and there are several different exceptions to it now a days, "Emo" being just one. There is also now the beginnings of a trend to sell regular makeup to men, so far mainly its subtle natural tones.
Unless the police officer in question is a complete moron. I would think that an ID with a picture that looks what is considered feminine and matching what they look like but says the holder is male would actually help the officer identify the person carrying it more then, stopping the same person with an ID that looks traditionally male while they actually look what is assumed to be female.
In conclusion:
An officer stopping this boy with an ID picture that seems to look female may make the officer conclude he is a weirdo(unfortunately) but still should be accepted. But stopping him with a photo that looks traditionally male may lead to worse.
Example: "Ma'am, this is a guys ID, what are you trying to pull. I am going to have to take you in"
Defeats the whole purpose doesn't it?
Just my own thoughts on this.
~Hypatia >i< ..:::
PS. Of course that doesn't even touch on the problem of those who look different at different times. But that is a whole other can of worms.
[[ Gee that got long ]]