Like many people here I'm on a quest... Not really a quest for gold or fabulous treasure, but I think perhaps a more mundane one. I'm looking to improve my writing skills. Every story I write I learn something new and I'd like to keep this trend going, but I've hit a bit of a snag. One of my biggest weaknesses is that I lack a complete grasp on grammar. Virtually Twisted was my first foray into the world of TG and also the first yarn I'd written in quite a while. Something I think was painfully obvious when I first posted it. Mostly Virtually Twisted was my own way of testing the water to see how well received I'd be, but I got pretty lazy with it and it shows.
I tried to avoid the same pitfalls when I began writing Incompatible and I like to think it was a big improvement over the other tale, but there is one thing (among others) that has been a constant problem for me, grammar. It hasn't been so obvious to people reading my stories mostly because I had the good help of Holly and djkauf, but the problem is still there and while I feel I have been making improvement I'm just not up to the level I'd like to be. So on that note, I'm hoping you guys and gals could provide me with a little help. I'm not asking anyone to provide me with specific pointers rather I'm hoping someone knows of a book on writing that would help me with this problem.
English was always my weakest subject in school and later college, but I managed to get passing grade. English never really interested me mostly because the subject always seemed so dry to me. With science, art, music and most especially history there were things there to capture my imagination, but English was just a bunch of words on paper.
Now before anyone misunderstands I do intend to continue using an editor. No one is infallible and I find it difficult to hunt down my own mistakes (even some of the more obvious ones), but I think if I had a firmer grasp on grammar, said mistakes, would show up far less frequently.
Now before I go off on a tangent I better just get to the point. I'm looking for a book on grammar that would help me improve my writing. One which (preferably) isn't dry. That's part of my trouble, I have ADD and any bit of text that reads like stereo instructions makes it hard for me to keep focused. I've learned to live with this particular problem and I can even trudge through a boring book if I have too, BUT I take a lot more away from it if it engages me. So, with that little piece of information in mind, does anyone know of a book that fits this criteria?
Any suggestions are appreciated.
Comments
Strunk and White
Strunk and White might, and I stress might, meet your needs. On the one hand it's dry and prescriptive, but on the other it's short and pithy. They go over a rule, give a few examples, and move on to the next. It's very good for reference, if you need to quickly look up a rule and figure out how to apply it. It's much less useful as a textbook to learn the material the first time around, though.
Titania
Lord, what fools these mortals be!
Ditto
You can buy a grammar book with hundreds of pages of rules and examples, but if you believe in the KISS system then Strunk and White"s Elements of Style is the best book. Unfortunately, I just sold a copy. or I could send you it.
shalimar
Hope this helps....
You said that you were on a quest, I would disagree that treasure isn't your goal, as a well written story is gold in my book.
The web link below is to a web site on grammar and is broken down into sections and then sub sections, while ADD has never been an issue for me dyslexia is, and stereo and electronics instructions in general have the same result with me, also flat pack furniature instuctions make no sence either.
Grammar
Wow, I like this link !
I now use Firefox and do not know how to save something to a menu, or I would save this one for sure.
G
Links
Bookmarks -> Bookmark this page.
Brings up a little dialog asking where you want to add the bookmark. If you choose from the dropdown or click one of the little arrows to the right you can find a place to organize; otherwise it just goes at the bottom.
Bookmarks -> Show all Bookmarks opens a drag'n'drop editor where you can move your bookmarks around and organize them. Close this dialog using the X on the top right corner or you'll shut Firefox down and may not save your changes.
Penny
Wow, that was fun!
Thank you so much.
Gwendolyn
Sorry!!!
I have only ever used Internet Explorer so was unable to offer advice!
Online Writing Lab
Most of my instructors recommend the Purdue OWL as a source for English writing guidelines, but it may be better suited for writing a paper than for writing a novel.
"we can turn it all around, because it's not too late, it's NEVER too late" -(never too late, Three Days Grace)
Wish you luck. But won't hold my breath :-)
For Russian language there are several books on grammar and punctuation (which is important part of grammar in Russian) contradicting each other in many basic rules. With English, Welsh, Scottish, American, Australian, Indian, Chinese and Canadian versions of "English" there should be much more confusion.
So it all leads to the recommendation: read a lot!
Preferably printed pre-internet books of your favorite authors at first.
By "a lot" I mean 6+ standard 300-page novels a month. (Get a membership at nearest library, otherwise you'll be broke soon :-) )
Recommendation number 2: Reread your text 5-10 days after writing.
Recommendation number 3: Newer trust a spell checker. If it shows some word as wrong - check that you spelled it right. If it shows some word as OK - triple check that it is a word you wanted to use. There are to mini weirds that spill choker well shawl as correct spelling ;-)
Interestingly enough, grammar
Interestingly enough, grammar structures _in English_ tend to be pretty much set in stone. Pronunciation changes, emphasis on syllables changes (This is part of what happened with "Colonial India" english), accent changes things (The word 'Out' in Thunder Bay is radically different from 'Out' in Little Rock), spelling and word choice changes, but the grammar structures are pretty solid, and have been for hundreds of years.
The 'exceptions to the rules' that show up are because of borrowing from other languages. (Okay, mugging them in dark alleys, and rummaging around in the pockets for loose grammar, but what's some verbal violence between countries?)
Think of these two phrases.
"How can I be of assistance today?" (Variant, "How can I be assisting you today?"
"How can I be helping you today?"
The first is classic good grammar - if you're in a British sitcom. The second is the _same structure_, but uses a different word, and has become a joke stereotype of Indian grammar.
If you pick up Canterbury Tales, you can follow the sentence structure without any problems. Same with Shakespeare's scripts.
"Ay, the heads of the maids, or their maidenheads. Take it in what sense thou wilt."
The biggest change in English grammar that I can think of, relatively speaking, is that of the disappearance of plural and singular possessive structures. You, Your, Thee, Thou, Thine, He/His, Her/Hers, Their/Theirs, Our/Ours, It/Its. You and Your have completely replaced Thee, Thou, and Thine.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
In simple short sentences it is simple.
But take somthing longer:
UK/US: John wanted to dress as Jane yesterday(,) but Jim persuaded him that it is not a very good idea as Mary could have returned at any time.
China: John want to dress as Jane. It was yesterday. Jim say it is bad idea. It was yesterday. Mary probably returns. It could be at any time.
(In Chinese language there is no past or future tense in European sense. Actually, there also is no gender in speech. So Chinese people have a lot of trouble distinguishing he/she)
And yes, there is (are) more than two traditions in placing punctuation marks in sentences.
And yes, in some places "is" is used with plurals and "are" is used with (the) singulars :-)
And the "a" and a "the" are used differently in (the) different countries :-)
That's one of the reasons I have trouble with English grammar. I spend short periods conversing in English with Germans, Americans, Chinese, Italians, and sometimes, if I'm lucky, with British people. And also read lots of letters from lots of countries... And things British understand are things that some Americans will say "can you repeat it" and Chinese will just blank out without any feedback :-)
You're mixing things up a
You're mixing things up a bit. Using another language's grammar structure _in English_ is bad _English_ grammar. The same thing happens in reverse.
The romance languages are often a problem as well - word reversals.
In english, you would say "I have a blue ball". In French, it's more like "I have a/the ball, blue." Gender structures for words is also not a standard English concept. The formal/informal throws things for a loop as well. You can describe yourself in a group both formally and informally, and almost the entire sentence sounds the same.
So, just because someone from another language doesn't understand English grammar, it doesn't make their grammar wrong - it just means it's not English. It also doesn't mean that there are different 'English' grammars.
India - they learned English from English built, funded, and staffed schools - for a very long time. Same with the area around Israel (the previous Mandate of Palestine). Hong Kong? Very good english speakers - same reason, English schools. One thing the English left behind from their imperialist phase? Lots and lots of educated people that all spoke a common language, spread across the globe. It's the only reason "India" didn't completely revert back to 18+ countries. If you're from southern India, and need to talk to a Northern Indian, you use English - and vice versa.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
Yes, but...
What about punctuation, "a", "the", "is", "are"(,) and other patticles usage that differs even in some academical British sources?
Grammar and Telephone
I think the rules for 'a', 'the', 'is' and 'are' are pretty well established - they're even common between American and British English. Which isn't to say people won't ever make mistakes. It's quite common to make a mistake on is/are after a list, for example (I often have to check myself on that one.) Fortunately language in general, and English in particular, is very forgiving of mistakes. You can make an awful lot of grammar errors and still be understood. Mostly.
I remember reading a paper some years ago talking about error-tolerance in languages. It's not a constant. Everyone who grew up in America has probably played telephone at some point. You sit in a circle, the first person gets a message and whispers it - only once - to the second. That person passes it to the third, and so on. The game is to see how horribly garbled the message gets. It usually breaks down completely within 3 or 4 people. Our language is not tolerant of word-errors, as it were.
Now, that's not true of all languages. German usually takes close to 10 passes to break down (I'm pulling these numbers from memory - if anyone can find that paper, feel free to correct me.) Russian was, as I recall, the best, getting close to 20 people before losing the message. Both languages make heavy use of declensions, in which there's noun/verb agreement, so one part of the sentence gives clues to the others.
Just some interesting points to consider. We think we can always understand what you meant in English, we can pull meaning out of anything. But we might be wrong about what you meant. It's easy to get meaning across - all the people in a game of telephone think they have a message - but things do get garbled quickly.
Titania
Lord, what fools these mortals be!
In "broken telephone" in Russian...
Results are varying greatly depending on message and players :-) When we played it original message rarely survived past 3-rd player :-) But we rarely had more than 5 players :-)
As for rules... Yes, they are quite established. My point was that there are several sets of those available.
And yes, it is easy to understand most of the time. But we all aspire to get past "Me Tarzan, you Jane" :-)
On the other hand, human languages contain huge amount of checksums and redundancy to correct single byte errors, and up to multiple word errors in some cases.
And what I wanted to convey originally - languages are alive and changing. You just need to find balance between proper grammar, actual meaning and emotion/person/location/situation subtleties.
And IMHO best way for this is not memorisation of some academical rulebook, but reading of the good literature.
Good literature...
So, you mean stay away from Tolstoy, right?
--------
English is probably the most 'forgiving' language for pidgin dialects - which makes it even more reprehensible how many illegal (and legal) immigrants don't learn enough of the language to get by.
Jokes aside, you can't mix up other languages without distorting the meanings of the sentences beyond belief. You can in english. "Bathroom go I need" "Need I toilet go" "have bathroom?" "cost how much thing this?"
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
Tolstoy... Don't get me started ;-)
Yes. Stay away from Tolstoy. Several reasons. 1 - you probably will read some translation. So it will be translators interpretation of original. 2 - even in Russian, we don't have original version. Written Russian was very different 150 years ago. 3 - he was not terribly good writer.
Actually, all of European languages are forgiving. They are designed that way. 100 years ago only more or less uniform across the country language in Europe was English. But if you traveled on foot, say from Hamburg to Lisboa, you would have been hard pressed to show exact point where locals started speaking in French. Or in Spanish, or in Portuguese. Only first world war and invention of education for everybody made languages separate :-)
I simply imitate others.
I was never able to learn sentence structure, so over the years I simply began to imitate those who wrote well. The errors I make are still glaringly obvious. One of my friends used to sneak in and "fix" things for me, however. I used to get angry with her at times, but she would just treat me like her errant little sister, and that made me mad too !!! She's not around any more and I miss her a lot.
Having said all that, there are times when, to be true to the story, an author must use incorrect grammar, or dialect of another country to give the tale authenticity. I really like to butcher UK English and so far the citizens of that country have been dotingly tolerant of me. I've had considerable exposure to the English that Arabic speaking folk use, and it is fun to write like they speak.
I just write for the trouble I can cause.
Gwendolyn
I'll disagree with many
I'll disagree with many people here, and say to not buy a grammar book. At least, not immediately.
Go to your local library, and ask them for the section on texts, or grammar/english composition.
Look through the books, and once you find one that you can tolerate reading, THEN look for a copy online (used from Amazon, perhaps).
Everyone is different, which is why there are so many different texts out there on the various subjects. In fact, you may not _need_ a grammar text so much as a straight English Composition book, which covers grammar, style, phrases, and word choice.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
Buying
I'm incredibly cheap so I will definitely be checking the library first before buying. :D
Have delightfully devious day,
More non-grammar advice
I'll agree with Bibliophage - check out the books on writing at your local library first. There are a huge number of writing books out there, most of which are repetitive and which only make sense if you know what they're trying to teach.
Next - what do you mean by "grammar?" To an academic specialist, "grammar" means syntax - the organization of words in a sentence. To the rest of us, "grammar" means syntax, punctuation, spelling, usage and a bunch of other things I'm too lazy to remember at the moment. Where are your weaknesses?
The grammar reference I use is "A Student's Introduction to English Grammar" by Huddleston and Pullum, but I absolutely don't recommend it unless you want to learn English grammar the way the last 50 years of academic research have illuminated the subject, rather than the way it's mangled into an unintelligible mess in the schools and by language pundits. It's also university level, and it won't help you with writing better. As far as I'm concerned, no resource on grammar will do that. The only thing that does that is learning from feedback.
Some online resources I've used on occasion:
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/
http://www.englishpage.com/
http://public.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/
Brians' Common Errors in English Usage is invaluable, but only if you actually use it.
What will help is an editor. Maybe Shakespeare and Milton could rip off perfect prose the first time, every time, but the rest of us need help. Learn to edit yourself, and learn how to recognize and fix your common mistakes. Granted, editing is boring. It's also the difference between getting a check from the publisher and having your work filed in the bit bucket by the first reader before anyone who can write a check looks at it.
Xaltatun
accademic
Syntax is a concern for me, but I was using grammar as a more generic term for the whole enchilada. Spelling is one of the few areas that has never been much of an issue, but punctuation is and I do tend to mix up certain homophones. I actually do some editing of my own. I periodically read through and correct/modify/extend certain parts, but it's very easy for me to miss something as my mind does tend to see what I meant to write rather than what I actually wrote. As such it's very easy for me to miss typos, punctuation errors (at least those I'm able to identify), and homophones. I've had some success using find and replace to rid myself of the more common homophones, but somehow there are quite a few that fall through the cracks.
As far as grammar resources not helping me become a better writer I respectfully disagree. I think grammar, punctuation, spelling, etc are an important aspect of forming a cohesive story. Obviously, if you lack the ability to weave a good tale and keep the reader wanting more then all the grammar knowledge in the world isn't going to make you a better writer, but I think if your stories lack 'the whole enchilada' then most readers won't even give your work the light of day. I do take reader feedback into consideration and if you were to ask some of my pre-readers and folks who've edited for me you will find that it's not unusual for me to make sweeping changes to a story based on one simple comment. Once, it's been posted I'm less willing to make revisions, but I will often take some of the readers comments into consideration when moving on to my next story.
Have delightfully devious day,
As has been said already.
Strunk and White's Elements of Style is concise, short and very understandable. Though I agree that you should look it up in your local library before getting it.
Maggie
Other useful infomation
For some very readable guides to several aspects of grammar, look no further than our very own Puddintane, who's written several blogs on the subject!
Over at Crystal Hall, there's a pre-moderated Writing Tools forum, which includes a Helpful Online Resources and Writing Tools and what they are for threads.
One post in particular contains oodles of useful links... :D
As the right side of the brain controls the left side of the body, then only left-handers are in their right mind!
helpful
Some helpful tips there. I've bookmarked this and a number of links posted by various folks who've commented. Unfortunately, I'm rather short on time today so I won't be able to do much but glance at them. Thanks once again, everyone for the tips and recommendations.
Have delightfully devious day,
Thanks all
Thanks all for the suggestions. Once, I've gotten some sleep I'll try to go through and issue some more direct responses. I've had only a few hours sleep in the last few days and I can hardly keep awake let alone form a coherent thought.
Thanks once again everyone and I do hope have a delightfully demented day,
D.A.W.
Have delightfully devious day,