This is quite interesting:
http://biblethumpingliberal.com/2011/05/19/you-can%E2%80%99t...
I hadn't taken it to quite the extreme that the author did, but he is exactly right.
The article mentions the Old Testament prohibition of homosexuality, but it is equally applicable to what the OT says about cross dressing.
There are lots of other examples of rules that people universally consider to be Christian commandments, when what they really are is cultural norms masquerading as morality.
Comments
Old testement
People tend to forget that the Old testement God was a God of War and blood sacrifice.
When folks through the OT versus at me I ask them when they sacrificed thier best goat.
James
Interesting Arguments!
"Cultural norms masquerading as morality" is a very good choice of words. I guess I've always believed that the Ten Commandments are the Word of God, while the other rules are cultural beliefs that had very good reason to exist at the time. They are rules about food, economics and general health, and while they were necessary and useful in that time, they are woefully out of date for our culture.
In other words, the Laws of God are timeless. The 3000 year old cultural rules of a tribe of nomads are not and were not intended to be applicable in our time.
Too often people misuse the Bible to forward their own cause. It is the duty of Good Christians to do our best to prevent this. I think the best test is to ask ourselves, is the statement being put forward as a tool of extremists? If so, be very cautious in the interpretation. Fools and sheep follow blindly. A wise person thinks.
Wren
Leviticus
Here is the thing with following Leviticus and some of the other old testament books, and I've had this argument on various subjects, not only with dealing with homosexuality and transsexualism. Leviticus is a book of laws for the nation of Israel to follow and by extension, people of the Jewish faith. I am not an Israeli, nor am I Jewish. I have never been Jewish, nor do I wish to become Jewish or Israeli. The laws were designed to show Israel as a distinct nation of God's own people. Me following Leviticus would be almost as incredulous as me paying taxes to Pakistan or singing God Save the Queen (I am a filthy American if you must know). People use the law to make all kinds of demands (like not putting up a Christmas tree or celebrating birthdays). The issue here is that they do not apply to me.
However. I will not say to completely disregard the old testament. I think things that are pre-law and pre-israel still apply (early Genesis). I also think there are other areas in the Bible that may not address issues directly, but apply via proxy (which is where I do have some issues with how I handle my GID). I do believe in a concept I call individual or personal interpretation, where God give certain people areas of emphasis in order that His (i will never use the pronoun her to describe God) will be completed.
Katie Leone (Katie-Leone.com)
Writing is what you do when you put pen to paper, being an author is what you do when you bring words to life
Abomination is as abomination does...
What they usually don't tell you in English translations of the Bible is that there are a bunch of words very loosely translated as "abomination," including "Goddess" and other names of the competition back in the olden days. It's difficult to argue from English translations that are either very sloppy or specifically partisan, promulgating a particular point of view about "what" was said as well as what it meant, so to argue from the translation is just plain silly. You have to go back to the original language. In reference to descriptions of (male) homosexuality, the actual word is usually "Toevah," whose exact meaning is fairly unclear, although in general it refers to the cultic practices of "foreign" religions. For example, the Hebrew description of a Roman Catholic High Mass (assuming that one had been celebrated back then) would probably include the word Toevah, which might be a cheery new perspective on a "controversial" subject.
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
P.S.
I found a nice site that discusses "toevah" here:
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Abolmination???
You wrote:
"cultural norms masquerading as morality"
But, isn't morality a cultural norm
Depends on the definition of morality
There are mores (moe-rays), which are cultural norms. Morality is a word derived from the same route as mores. They don't mean the same thing though and morality means different things in different contexts. One meaning is a universal code of conduct for human beings.
Hillel's Law comes closest to me to being a distillation of all morality. Paraphrased: Do not unto others that which you would find hateful if done unto you. It's a form of the Golden Rule, phrased as a restriction rather than a call to action. Safer that way.
If you add Jesus's injunction, Love thy Neighbor, you have the basis for a code of conduct that would probably make the world a better place.
Everything else is just fine tuning and subject to cultural bias, in my opinion.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
As an atheist...
I still write religion. I have written quite a few bits that take Erin's advice above as a root, but the one that speaks best to me comes from (Big) Bill Woodruff: be excellent to one another.
Cut and Paste
" Do you think that you can fit all of God in To 600 pages." The cannon Bible is a readers digest version of all the material that they had to work with. It has been cut pasted edited censored, re-written Lied about used by the worst people on earth Etc Etc Etc.
I was born Catholic so I am aware of many of the tricks used by that church, Then the King James bible came out with a lot more edits, and none of the source material was used in creating it. In the simplest terms it is both a great book and a tool of both mass distraction and Destruction. My big problem with the Catholic bible is missing so much important information, If there is a desire to read the OT use the new English version of the Torah then study it with a Rabbinical student as they do one on one arguing back and forward until it is worked out. I hold no anger against the peaceful practice of one's faith and the same type of discussion with others but I have found that the universe is so much more complicated than a bronze age desert dwelling war like tribe can imagine. Now Christ is another story all together.
But to no one's surprise I look to Eiwa for guidance and connection.
With those with open eyes the world reads like a book
Before we denounce other culture's
Religion books we might as well translate it properly.
As a native Hebrew speaker I find the English translation of the Jewish bible quite inaccurate.
Anyway both of the relevant religions did enough to contribute to homophobia that they considered an accomplice in my books.
Lily.
Sorry Lily
I did not mean to disrespect your culture or your Bible. My main point is that the Cristian bible is very full of miss and diss information. I was hoping to erase some of the barriers between our very connected cultures by offering a possible bridge for people to walk over. We both should share the same beginnings as it was the Hebrews who lived the old testament.
I am sorry for any upset my comments may have caused.
With those with open eyes the world reads like a book
Don't sweat
I am agnostic so it isn't my bible. I just know that the translation is really bad and makes the bible more extreme then it really is .
And your sorry is accepted (even though I wasn't offended by it :D)
Interesting take
I being a loving Born again Christian, have read each comment and noticed that the attention is given to the Old Testament. I use the Bible as my discipline and have an indifference with religion. I am a Christian, not perfect, but I've learned to use the entire Bible for references. My heart ache is when a verse is taken out of context. Each chapter in the Bible is designed as a message, removing a single verse changes the meaning of the verse and can be used in many diferent ways.
I am not happy with the zealot Christians whose actions do not speak for all Christians (The Westboro church for example) We were told to love one another not spew hate and tell people that God hates them.
I can tell you places in the Old and New testament that lets me lnow I am not an abomination nor am I peculiar or odd.
All I can say is God gave us the freedom of choice to believe as we want or to not believe.
The book of Corrinthians chapter nine is very intersting as it upholds a lot of the old testaments idealim.
Jill Micayla
Be kinder than necessary,Because everyone you meet
Is fighting some kind of battle.
Why are we arguing
about stuff that was written several thousand years ago? In those days people believed all sorts of nonsense because they understood very little of how things worked. Superstition and taboo ruled especially as a way of controlling people.
Religions are still using superstition to control or blackmail people, to wit, the Church of England trying to torpedo the government's attempt to make gay marriage legal.
I have news for all of them - the sun doesn't go round the earth, we have laws which are written by legislators, and while far from perfect they, they tend to be a bit better than stoning people for adultery.
Fact: the Bible was written by men for men, so was the Q'ran and every other religious text or tract. If that offends anyone, perhaps they should book themselves in for a reality check, or produce evidence which proves me wrong, in which case I'll apologise.
And who gave Paul authority to say anything? He was just a man the same as the rest of us, and an apostate before he was an apostle.
The one statement in the Bible which has any credence, Jesus took from Hillel, which was to love your neighbour as yourself. If we did this, the world wouldn't need imaginary gods, and the problems of mankind would be halved overnight.
Angharad
Bible
I can respect your agnostic belief system. That does not mean, however, that some of us care very much about that 'moldy old book."
I have met people who are Christian, Jewish, Mormon, Islamic, Wiccan, and many others. I have never told them that they were silly for believing, or discussing their beliefs.
The above discussion is about a common problem faced by GLBT people, and is definitely relevant to this site.
Even a non-Christian person would do well to have an answer that respects the belief system of the person involved. I'm not saying this because it would be good to have a thoughtful comeback as much as to have a way to help a Christian GLBT person who is having trouble reconciling his/her faith with who he/she is.
I didn't say you were silly,
I respect your right to believe whatever you want. However, the article you linked might convince you, but it did nothing for me.
As to Christians having problems with being gay or transgender: perhaps it's because they're Christians that they have the problems, with all the baggage that religion carries. Christianity was hi-jacked by Rome and ever since then it has been an instrument of repression against women and other minority groups. Enjoy your Bible.
Angharad
A few observations here.
First I'd like Angharad to read this whole thing as well.
Now onto some pieces of note. First, who said the current Bible is the Reader's Digest version is correct. Considering the Council Of Mycenae and all that was thrown out that is not considered cannon it's ridiculous. I remember hearing from a movie about the Gospel Of Solomon(so you can tell me if this is correct Ray) where it states something like "Nature is your church" or "the outside" thus potentially making the Church negligible.
Let's go next to translation(great point Puddintane). The King James version of the Bible has been translated HOW many times? Let us remember that a translation of a translation is very muddy. Beyond that it would be even more amazing if it should resemble anything of the original source's intent.
Next up a note to Angharad. Have you read Max Weber? He gets into Science's disenchantment of Religion by discovery. This does us favors while at the same time does us a great disservice. There's nothing wrong with having magic in the world so to speak. As for you thinking everything would be fixed I think other things would take their place. A lot of people use these verses to justify their hate, yes. However, for others, some honestly believe this. The people that really I find disgusting are the Chinese government and how they treated Gay people around the Olympics, rounding them up to hide by throwing them in prison. If I'm not mistaken their religious beliefs say nothing about Gay behavior so it's just a matter of them hating Gays.
A few other pieces to note on Christianity in general. One of the accusations of where this Homophobia came about was due to Iustinian and Theodora, who ruled in the latter half of the Roman empire when only the eastern half was left. While a lot of books praise them one in general accuses Theodora of being an actress(code for prostitute at the time), that of Prokopios' "Secret History". That being said, it's heavily salacious as well though it's nice to see another word instead of the universal praise they received. Also it's worth noting he worked for them, composing one book that you would obviously say is propaganda after reading this. It's all about their works but I can't remember it's name off the top of my head. One contrast is this: In "works" he talks about how great it is that Theodora created a nunnery or something like that for the Prostitutes at the time. In "Secret History" he basically speaks of how they were forced in it because of Theodora, like she regretted her past.
For Islam and it's sexism mentioned earlier, in Mali(in Africa) you had, essentially, the first woman Secretary of State at least a century before Hillary Clinton. I truly believe that Islam is not sexist even if it doesn't rely on MaliKi(moderate Islamic theory developed by the head of the Almarouid).
Jeez what's left? Well I believe it was Christians who did damage to the Temple Of Epheseus which leads me to extreme disgust. Why, even when great works like these are saved, do they have to be converted to Christian churches I'll never know(the Parthenon is one example I believe). The thing is, this acceptance of Christianity and the disregard or even persecution of the old religion was due in part, again, to Iustinian and Theodora.
Well I guess my last comment is two parted. I consider myself a Daoist because I believe in the Balance above all, to me it just is and makes the most sense from a Scientific standpoint to me. Also Christianity just turned me off so much, what with the obedience et al. I don't need to accept you or go to Hell. This is what angers me about Christianity. Let's see: "King of Kings", "Hosannah In the Highest". "Hell"=you being tortured by the King forever in the dungeon for questioning him? No thanks. Being that it was said "Man formed in the image of God." has almost forever soiled my being able to connect a God or Goddess to existing and forming an intimacy to them. It's not like the Bible comes to you and has God be a teacher or a friend and teaching you accordingly. No, God is a King, you will lay prostrate before Him(remind me how God is a higher being then me here, he sounds immature and insecure). Ugh. At least the Greeks would proceed to provide food and drink for them, treating them more as their everyday piers if only in that respect. Having no food or drink to supply to this God alienates people even more from being able to relate to them or even possibly to connect to them.
My last comment is that I know all Christians aren't assholes at all. Far from it, some are very nice people and don't deserve the grief Janine Garofalo gave them on Air America Radio when she was on. She seemed to speak as if all Christians were bigoted, Homophobic assholes.
I believe I've covered all of what I wanted to say here.
Obey....
Remember what the word 'islam' means: submission. That is the root of all the major religions. Do it My way, or be damned.
I have found this....
Enlightening, enjoyable, and a lot of fun. I enjoy the ability to discuss things with such a body of educated and eloquent people. This is some thing very important for all of us. "Silence like a cancer grows." Sounds of Silence Simon and Garfunkel.
To bad we can not have some version of the Round Table Club Harpo Marx belonged to in the 1910 or there about. May be a virtual Starbucks or the likes where we can all set around our own tables and see one-another and just discuss stuff. But I do know I truly wish to visit each and every one of you just to have the chance to get to know such a wonderful band of people.
Huggles
Michele
With those with open eyes the world reads like a book