The whole... to edit or not to edit... idea. It's a funny one and as I'm a wee bit precious about my 'babies' I've sort of steered clear to now. Being somewhat of the freeform let it flow school as opposed to the sit and proof and edit and proof and edit school it's sort of interesting to try the different approach. I'm expecting it to be mostly positive but I guess that somewhere along the way I'll wonder if I'm betraying something. Sort of organic purity vs polished methodology. I know it isn't really one or the other... it's just headspace and preconceptions basically. But being an untutored ignorant chickie I wonder what perfessor 'iggins 'as in mind to do to me like. The ryn in spyn falls...
Prompted in part by a recent bout of comments on a little story thingie of mine I began to contemplate the possibility that just maybe there is an alternate point of view. I mean I'm not one to think for a minute I know it all or anywhere close, so having a more educated set of eyes look at something with a view to improving it is hardly a loss of artistic integrity.
So where does one look to find a person that is undoubtedly a good writer… maybe, gasp, better than oneself and also skilled in the edit as opposed to proof thing?
I suppose that having jousted a little over a bit of time and while sometimes disagreeing, basically keeping a ( I think ) mutual respect for a different point of view or opinion there was from my position only one option. There may well be others as skilled or better, but I don't 'know' them if ya know what I mean. So.
First thing as the story was unfinished was needing to put down background detail that may be there in my head but is seldom if ever committed to type and an outline of direction. Things done, perhaps mentally and almost subconsciously, but not deliberately with a view to anothers eye. Ok, no prob just a different focal point.
Now being a new relationship of sorts there is of course an amount of dancing, to get the feel, judge receptiveness and assess stylistic difference and intent. To see in part I suspect whether I would toss a hissy fit if my words were deemed 'unsuitable'. Entirely understandable and accepted, I mean, hey.. what's the point if I can't listen and step back to see?? So... here we are, at the beginning.
It's a whole new adventure in a sense isn't it?
To be continued...
Comments
my thoughts
I hate proofreading and i cant really edit yet. I have had a bad habit of posting too early. And they were so riddled with errors. What ever i post next will be reread a number of times, proofed ruthlessly and edited.
I'm probably the world's worst....
when it comes to editing, smacks of hard work when writing's supposed to be fun. I mean, my 'Falling' series is an exercise in, 'see if anyone can understand the theme despite all the typos, grammatical and other mistakes.' I boldly make split infinitives an art form!
At the end of the day, it's all about choice, so make your bloody mind up, and let us know 8).
only joking,
hugs,
Angharad.
Angharad
I'm probably the world's best .....
.... about knowing what's in my head. And about knowing what I want to say and how I want to say it. So for me the very idea of some other sod buggering about with my deathless prose is complete anathema.
One of the first comments I had was from some well meaning and helpful soul who suggested how the first chapter of DofC could be improved. It meant that I had to spend a considerable amount of time in composing a reply proving, beyond a shadow of doubt, that far from improving my work, the suggested alterations would quite ruin it.
I haven't got the time for this. I am better at expressing what I want to say than any one else possibly could be.
Proof reading would be useful as one never sees one's own typos whoever many times one reads and re-reads them. But as I am not prepared to do it for others, it would be quite wrong of me to expect anyone to do it for me.
I am full of admiration for all the editing work that Kristina does. She is a far better, kindlier, person than I. Sometimes I can even, in those half waking moments before sleep comes, glimpse the reason people want their work to be edited. But when I wake in the cold light of the next morning the insight, if such indeed it be, has quite vanished.
Hugs,
Fleurie
Well Yes -- Everyone Else Is Wrong
The publishing industry spends copious amounts of money on editing as well as delaying the marketing of books until such a review can be done.
Seems like such a waste when there is such a clear and utter contempt for editors.
It's called perspective. Even a professional writer can gain from a reader's comments who is removed from the topic.
People who don't like or want help might be extremely foolish. Of course, people who subject themselves to the use of a broken crutch often fall flat on their . . . .
Rejecting the concept of editing by others shows contempt for your readers.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Well Yes .... More Wrong than I :)
Yes I think they are Angela. How can anyone know better than I what I want?
But you really must read what I say more carefully.
I have nothing to do with the publishing industry. How they spend copious amounts of money is entirely up to them.
Nor am I a professional writer. Conceivably as an amateur I might benefit from other's comments but in what way and to what end? I could perhaps learn what to do to please readers more and such may well be excellent advice, but will I learn how to please myself?
And pleasing myself is why I do it. I don't even claim to be a writer. Just someone who is occasionally intrigued by the possibility of telling a story.
And above all learning from comments is not in question. I was talking about editors.
And from where did you conjure up this 'clear and utter contempt for editors'? I have a great respect for all who deal in words. Editors are doubtless upright and worthy people fulfilling a vital role in society. I am sincere in saying that I admire Kristina for all the work she puts in in helping others. I just genuinely don't understand why amateur scribblers such as myself need them.
I am mystified why people who don't want help might be foolish. Apart from the application of the law of averages .... some people who don't want help etc .... :)
Surely too it is those seeking help that might pick up the broken crutch. Those unaware of a limp would surely use it for firewood?
You must also understand that a failure to understand a concept - what a grand, all embracing, and totally emotive word that is - does not necessarily imply rejection.
But even if it did, the leap of imagination required to translate such into contempt for my readers - A Merry Christmas to both of them - is quite beyond my mental agility.
Finally of course all the editing in the world availeth not if people do not read what is written.
But I am glad you didn't. So much more fun!
Hugs,
Fleurie
Needing an editor
Is sometimes like admitting that you're not happy with what you've written.
As an amateur, contentment with what I have written is more important to me than what others may think. I figure that if I am happy with what I've produced then that's okay. Like Fleurie, I know what I want to say and am not happy with the idea of someone saying that this or that is a better way to say the other. How would they know? Indeed Kristina will admit that sometimes her suggestions are ignored by me, but only because her speech is Australian English and the fact is, we in England may not formulate our sentences the way she has.
In the commercial world of literature, the interest is more towards that happy buck. So the writer has two things on his or her mind - 1) what do I want to say and 2) how best do I say this in order to make people buy this?
There you go see? There are two sides to every coin and my defiance against knowingly following the so-called rules is because I, like Fleurie, have a definite way I want something to be said and to hell with the feelings of those that read it. It's my way of creating the flow, the atmosphere and characterisations. If it's long-winded so what? If it's not the way a professional would write it, again, so what? It's mine and I will tell it MY way, just as Fleurie will tell hers.
This is not to say that Angela is wrong, she just has difficulty seeing it from the other person's perspective sometimes. She is like the sports-person or game player who only plays to win and cannot understand why someone else may want to play to enjoy the game, regardless of who wins.
I like the way I tell stories and the feedback I get suggests that others do too. Angela prefers hers. Are my stories THAT unpopular compared to hers? I don't think so, neither do I think Fleurie's are, we just prefer a different style and have little or no interest in that happy buck or pound in Fleurie's and my cases.
So if we as Angela suggests are wrong, how do we manage to be read by thousands of readers, get many comments often of a very positive nature and manage to live with ourselves for not following the so-called rules or employ the services of editors?
Over 36000 reads for me from this site alone can't be all wrong surely...
Effective prose
For me, it's not what I want to say but the effect I want my words to have on the reader. The best editor I've ever had was a man named Mat Twassel in Chicago who always made a ton of suggestions, not as better ways necessarily but as different ways so I could pick and choose from his offerings in order to fine tune the effect I wanted. I've never seen anyone else edit like that.
My first draft is written for me, just to get ideas down. It's usually pretty sketchy and the ideas and emotions I want to convey may not be more than just outlined. When I have to stop writing for a bit, I first edit what I've already written, parts of it at least, as I start writing again. When I finish, I go back over it and edit again. If I have an editor, this is where I send my prose out to be looked at.
I don't expect anyone to do the job Mat did, I sure as heck can't do it for anyone else! What I expect of an editor is proofing for spelling and punctuation and copy editing for finding places where I knew what I wanted to say but failed to say it in as clear a manner as required for my purpose of communicating ideas and emotions to the reader.
I've been writing for audiences for 50 years, (truth, I wrote short stories for my friends in the fourth grade). I always write to please myself but my pleasure comes from knowing that I've done my best to communicate what I wanted to say to someone else. And an editor can help.
Anyone else may have another purpose in writing.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
You're Wrong Nick
I can readily see your perspective.
What I have trouble with is wanting to believe someone can be so selfish as to hold that self-centered view.
Why write at all if you aren't willing to adher to rules established to make it easier on the reader? Why not simply sit in a dark corner and daydream. After all, when you toss letters at the screen without regard for "rules" you aren't making a legitimate effort to communicate.
You know what you "want" to say better than anyone else. That I understand. Saying what you "want" to say in a way the reader understands sometimes requires a second or third opinion.
By the way -- your snide, back-handed swipe at the popularity of my writing is bogus. How many people have paid good money for your writing? How many professional jobs have you had? How many national awards have you won for your writing?
Until you have a newspaper column, until your writing has been judged the best in the nation in your class, until you have sold material, don't kid yourself about the popularity/quality of your writing compared to mine.
Popularity on this site and others has a lot more to do with subject matter than any other factor. There is also a good ol'girl factor. I don't play any of the politically correct games that develop pals who write comments.
Recently Donna Lamb and I published items that had previously been Hatbox premiums. Neither of them received that many reads or comments. Does that mean they lack in quality? I suppose under your lame assessment it does.
Also don't confuse hits with reads.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Bogus?
I do believe that you may have grasped the wrong end of the stick, Angela.
Firstly, let me stress here that this is a site that is mainly submitted to by amateur writers and it is unlikely that many of the editors are anything other than enthusiastic amateurs either.
Secondly, this is not a writing school and those who submit their stories are not necessarily expected to 'improve' their craft; neither is it always the case that they want to.
How YOU choose to write is up to you.
How you choose to read though is something else.
Firstly, I must follow some kind of rule system or no-one would be able to read my stuff - I have just never read up on what those rules are. I was wrong to say I don't use them, but I write and hope that the way I write is understandable and clear. Many seem to think this is so. To suggest that I simply toss words at the screen and do not make a legitimate effort to communicate is not only childish but wrong. I make every effort to communicate in a legitimate fashion and will openly confess that I draw from many literary areas as well as real life to attempt to construct feasible plot lines, characters and scenarios.
I have been published in several magazines and newspapers for my artwork, photography and writing, I have even written a short advert for the radio (and yes, it WAS used), so I know that at least some of my work is commercially viable. Still it does not make me a professional and I am happy to accept that.
As for the back-handed and snide swipe at the popularity of your work, it was never implied or suggested in the first place. I know that the counters on stories do not always mean that the stories have been read, but the numbers are pleasing to me and I felt justified my side of the argument. If you notice, I never compared them to yours or Fluerie's either, so how you can sit there and accuse me of being snide is beyond me.
You were the one who had the audacity to state in your comment header that that everyone else is wrong. What gives you the right to judge above anyone else and what makes you think that yours is the only way?
From my perspective, in every opinion you have submitted to this site recently, you have been abrasive; appearing to put yourself and your ability above others, when actually, you are no better or worse than any of the others who post here.
Your techniques are respected, but they are not the only way to achieve a desired result and if people want to do things in a way that conflicts with your beliefs then let them. Don't stand on your soap box and tell everyone else they're wrong, like you just have - twice.
I may be wrong in responding to your argumentative nature, but that doesn't make what you have done right.
If this is a lame assessment, then bring on the crutches (broken or otherwise). You want to tell me and everyone else out there they're wrong then you best have a darned good argument and right now, all I've seen is a sad little person, clutching at straws and in this particular case, using invalid arguments to further her own overinflated opinion of herself.
Nuff said
Nick - Get it Right
Nick, it was you who said you didn't follow some kind of system for writing - and now have recanted those words.
Yet -- you call me "childish" for having believed you.
Now you say "I make every effort to communicate in a legitimate fashion" -- when you have stated quite profusely that you reject the use of editors, which is, of course, an "effort" made by the majority of writers in the world.
Are you going to come back now and call me "childish and wrong" because I have taken you at your word for wanting your work to be done in a "legitimate fashion?"
I self-edit. I use several self-editing guides to help me in that effort. I use the editing others have done for me in the past to help with my self-editing. Some of the stories I've posted here have been edited by others, others have not been.
My header was a response to the three previous posts. It means you three who posted first feel the majority position in the world is wrong. Using an editor is the majority position. Almost everything that is published is edited. The majority of what is read in the world is the published word. That might change in the future with self-publishing and sites such as this, but it is still the case that the majority of WRITERS use an editor. You and the other two are in the vast minority and are pushing your minority opinion, and action which asserts that everyone else is wrong.
There are any number of studies which prove the point of my argument. Those studies show explicitly that our mind will show us what we want it to show us. I'm sure you've seen articles that ask you to read and proof a sentence only to be amazed at the many errors you miss. Our mind will, like a DVD reader, fill in the blanks and smooth over the errors. When reading something we wrote, we see what we wanted to write, not what we actually wrote. It is devilishly hard to find typos.
It doesn't stop at typos. It is also devilishly hard to know that we didn't fill in certain pertinent details, that we got off on a tangent of personal interest that will bore the reader, or that we "told" when we should have "showed." A set of eyes with a fresh perspective can help us see what our mind will not show us.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Um, I wasn't one of those three
My comment came after Feurie's and if you go back and look, you'll find you're in error.
One can't help but follow some form of system. A language is in and of itself a system. I try to follow the rules that govern the use of that language where dialogue doesn't forbid (not everyone speaks as they should and that is pertinent when portraying the dialogue of characters). I don't necessarily follow the rules that you use and I'm sure that is true for a lot of amateurs.
What I said in the last comment was that I didn't knowingly follow the rules of writing stories as laid down by others. It is my understanding that those are written by people who have found a successful formula by which to write. They are "heuristics" or rules of thumb that worked for that person or those people and does not mean that by not using them you are not writing legitimate prose.
You also said that to not use an editor was selfish. That is not a valid argument, because you too post material that itself has not been edited - does that not make you selfish too?
You say you have used previous editing hints or tips to help you to self edit - i.e., that you learn from previous attempts and I have done likewise, and try to improve with each new piece I post. This so far makes my writing just as legitimate as yours.
So you see Angela, there is more than one way to skin a cat and more than one way to write or tell stories. Each has legitimacy in some way and to some people.
At the end of the day what is needed is a good story. Without that, it doesn't matter what you have at your disposal does it?
Nick - A Contract Exists Between the Writer and the Reader
You, evidently, have decided to argue in circles. Obviously I should have said "the" three instead of "you" three, but your expressed sentiments shadow those spoken in the first three posts, so why make such a distinction?
And, yes, when I post a piece without using an editor I'm allowing my pride to overcome my regard for the reader. That is indeed selfish.
You said ". . .to hell with the feelings of those that (sic) read it." Despite your arrogance toward the reader, when you post a story you've implied a contractual agreement. That contract allows that you will provide as enjoyable an experience for the reader as you possibly can in exchange for their time and effort in reading your material. That is the intrinsic agreement. If you don't agree you should warn people about your approach in the header above the story.
If, in fact, you, Fleurie, and all others who write FOR THEMSELVES truly want to hold such an attitude, perhaps Erin needs to consider a specific category for such stories.
When you break the implied contract with the reader and post a story without making a valid effort that pays regard to the reader's feelings, you've diluted the experience for the reader and diminished the chance that reader will return to this site and read my material. I do have a stake in your cavalier approach, as I'm painted by the same brush.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Uh huh Fleurie!
You said "I haven't got the time for (editing). I am better at expressing what I want to say than any one else possibly could be."
If that doesn't convey "complete and utter contempt" I don't know what does. What if an accomplished writer with impeccable credentials edited your work? Would you still hold that you can say it better?
Has no one in a conversation ever helped you shape your words or thoughts so that you more accurately expressed your opinion? Of course they have. -- That is what a good editor does.
If you don't care about your reader enough to want to express your thoughts in the best possible way -- given constraints of time and energy -- you're holding them in contempt.
Let me take a large leap of thought here -- it would appear you're writing primarily for yourself. I do that from time to time. When I do, I rarely use an editor. When I write for readers I'm quite happy to have several editors involved. When I write professionally I sometimes am quite taken aback by what my editor thinks makes perfect sense. That ten percent of the time I disagree with his changes, when I see my column in print, I tend to move toward your camp, the other 90% of the time I'm glad to have his help.
My mother beat the following into me. "Good, better, best. Never let it reat, until the good is better and the better is best." If by using an editor I can make the good better and the better best, I'm all for it. When I find an editor to be counter-productive I find another editor. The mission of my column is so important to me that I will continue to write it even though I don't like what my editor does at times.
I will even go so far as to allow Erin to edit my work with carte blanche as I trust her.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
An Abyss yawns ....
.... between us Angela.
Firstly though a correction, or it may be an elucidation. You presume the 'it' ending in 'I haven't got time for ....' referred to editing. In fact it referred to indulging in a lengthy written defence/justification of my writing style with people who wish to improve it.
If I thought editing was what I desired I might well find time for it. I just don't think it is though. But even if I had meant it as you state how does it imply contempt? I haven't got time to study Ancient Greek, but it doesn't mean I hold the language or the activity in contempt. In fact I would rather like to study it. I just don't have time!
What if an accomplished writer with impeccable credentials edited your work? Would you still hold that you can say it better?
Well yes. If Dickens, Trollop, Thackeray all offered to sit round a table with me and help I would refuse. I have no wish to ape what others write or would write. It would destroy my authenticity. It would no longer be my voice. Anyway who decides what is 'better'? I would rather be pleased with what I have written and see it universally condemned than have all the world acclaim it and myself think it crap.
I rarely read modern novels preferring to spend what little time I have :), with histories and historical biographies. It does seem to me however that some of the most popular professionals produce quite appalling tosh. And herein lies my great advantage, the privilege of being an amateur. I can write as my fancy listeth and for myself. Their writing has to pay the bills and sometimes be tailored to readers possessing a low level of ability and/or discrimination.
Has no one in a conversation ever helped you shape your words or thoughts so that you more accurately expressed your opinion? Of course they have. -- That is what a good editor does.
Well no, I can't say they have. Unless you count prompting me to rephrase a statement to make it more comprehensible to someone who seems unable to grasp anything less than the blindingly obvious.
If you don't care about your reader enough to want to express your thoughts in the best possible way -- given constraints of time and energy -- you're holding them in contempt.
I think this is a good example of chop logic. No wonder you value the help an editor can bring. I do indeed want to express my thoughts in the best possible way. I give the matter serious consideration and occasionally spend some time agonising over it. Surely you're not implying that I should employ an editor to ensure that these thoughts are presented in such a way that dimwitted or lazy readers will have an easier path to travel and thus enlarge the circle of those who might enjoy the benefits I offer? :)
But you say yourself that when you write for pleasure then you rarely use an editor. So where's the argument? Let alone the contempt that you see all around you?
I write little. As I mentioned before I haven't the time. I don't regard myself as a writer let alone an AUTHOR. I was once struck by a story idea and when that was finished swore I would do no more. But then I had another idea ... and now I have yet another glimmering in the distance. And I have found that I enjoy it. A plot for me is a structure in which I can indulge myself. Play with words, throw them in the air and see how they fall. Fit them together as in an ever moving jigsaw puzzle. Select, reject, polish, invent them even. Then whole phrases, sentences, paragraphs arranged to form patterns on a page. And characters arrive and talk to each other and I have the joy then of dialogue; sometimes clever, waspish, tender, with silences thrown in. And the characters themselves. One can be a god manipulating, deciding fates .... A delight. For me an editor would be an intruder. A stranger at the feast.
And the reader? Well I have to do something with it. And someone might enjoy it, or parts of it. And I delight when they do, and tell me. And those that like it I feel a kinship with. I warm to them. Would like to know them better. And those that don't ....well we are on different wavelengths. Life is like that. We are not all the same. They, those that think what I write is crap, obviously have different sense of humour, other interests.
But whether favourable or unfavourable, the opinions do not change anything. The tale is neither better nor worse for them. It lives as it is. As it was written.
I have no maternal urgings to spur me on. I don't know how one judges, good, better and best. Comparatives baffle me. I see faults in my work and know that they could be improved, but when I have tried it I have nearly always been disappointed by the result. Revision often stultifies the flow, erodes the freshness, the spontaneity. At least it seems so. So for me striving for perfection is a false god. Bugger self improvement. Concentrate on gathering ye rosebuds while ye may.
Hugs,
Fleurie
The Dickens You Say
Any writer??? who would reject the help of Dickens is a fool.
Of course, truthfully, you can't reject the help of Dickens, Twain, or Poe. They're there every time we string words. Whatever we've read of theirs whispers in our ear.
"Bugger self improvement" you say; and yet you argue against an editor. Isn't that highly inconsistent?
"I see faults in my work and know they can be improved, but when I have tried it I have always been disappointed by the result." Enter the editor. If you know your work isn't satisfactory and knowingly reject a source to help you make those changes needed, how can you say you don't hold your reader in contempt?
Consider offering to buy a round of drinks for your pals. They order, but when you open your wallet you find you will have to break one of your large bills to meet the tab. Instead you ask each of them to change their order to something cheaper. You have the resource in your wallet to satisfy their needs, but instead of using it, you expect them to drink something less satisfying than what you could have provided.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
The very dickens .....
.... of curious conclusions.
Any writer??? who would reject the help of Dickens is a fool.
So if I were a writer I would be a fool. There are worse things. And some of the literary ones have been remarkably acute. Though not I. But I would claim to be an honest one. One conscious of her own voice.
Of course, truthfully, you can't reject the help of Dickens, Twain, or Poe. They're there every time we string words. Whatever we've read of theirs' whispers in our ear.
Of course you can reject their help. In would be an even greater fool if I listened to everything that was whispered into my ears. Much of Dickens I have read but years ago. (Ah if only I had the time now!) As a boy I read and enjoyed Huckleberry Finn. Of Poe's work I can recall the Raven, a curious work which, although possessing a memorable rhythm, is not something that I would wish to emulate. I do think the impact of ear-whispering is greatly exaggerated. When one considers all the messages that we receive, all the prose that we digest, all the words that are shouted at us, it is really stretching credulity a little far to suggest that Dickens whispers to me across the decades, romantic notion that it be.
I admit that any English speaker must always hear the cadences of Shakespeare and the Authorised Version of the Bible (For Christ's sake not the new one. Bloody modern writers!) and probably, though alas not necessarily, derive from them a love of the language but on a day to day basis neither are my style I am afraid
"Bugger self improvement" you say; and yet you argue against an editor. Isn't that highly inconsistent?
No. Why should it be? If I do not consciously seek self improvement why would I seek to involve others in the process? Especially as I dispute your assumption that an editor would necessarily bring improvement. Quite the contrary in my eyes.
"I see faults in my work and know they can be improved, but when I have tried it I have always been disappointed by the result." Enter the editor. If you know your work isn't satisfactory and knowingly reject a source to help you make those changes needed, how can you say you don't hold your reader in contempt?
I didn't say my work isn't satisfactory. I said it could be improved. Most things can be - and I feel sure that I would have Shakespeare's backing on that. There is no earthly reason to assume that I would agree with an editor as to what improvements were required and how best to effect them. In my experience quite the contrary. It would only lead to an acrimonious exchange of views.
Consider offering to buy a round of drinks for your pals. They order, but when you open your wallet you find you will have to break one of your large bills to meet the tab. Instead you ask each of them to change their order to something cheaper. You have the resource in your wallet to satisfy their needs, but instead of using it, you expect them to drink something less satisfying than what you could have provided.
This baffles me. The scenario is ludicrously contrived and quite unreal. Firstly the anonymous reader isn't my pal and I am under no obligation to provide him or her with either drink or pleasure. Secondly if he or she doesn't like what I have to offer, he or she is free to go and scrounge sustenance from some other sucker.
Dear Angela, we just aren't going to agree on this. And the more we argue the more we both drift to extreme views. 'Tis ever so. If ever I should be foolish enough to write for readers, and money of course, I might change my views, although t'would be a sad day indeed. You, I admit with that generosity that so typifies my every action at this time of seasonal Good Will, are far more flexible in that you admit to the sin of writing for pleasure without recourse to an editor. I just don't understand why you refuse to others that same luxury.
Hugs,
Fleurie
Fleurie XXXXXX
Now I get it. You argue for the sake of argument. I'm done being a foil for your folly.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Sometimes you can't see the forest from the trees
The job of an excellent editor is both an extra pair of eyes and another creative force for your story using a fresh prespective.
I wrote a story that is now posted here. I didn't like the ending so didn't post it immediatly. I gave it to my best editor to see what she could see what I couldn't. She gave me a new BEGINING that said what I wanted to say much better. From that I rewrote the entire story while keeping the basic plot intact. It was a great improvement.
I've edited and helped edit other stories that, as a result, have better secondary characters, endings, more complete stories or better timelines.
By all means use your creative force and finish the story the way you want it, but when it is done you still need that extra head. If you are skilled enough and lucky enough you will only need the editor to proof. If not, remember none of us are poifect(sic).
Also remember that you are the author. The editor can recommend, but as the author you are the final judge.
shalimar
Interesting Point of View
Thanks for sharing that. This is an interesting topic, and one that I've gone back and forth with myself.
One major problem for the on-line writing community is that good editors are very, very difficult to find--especially in the TG genre (the world needs more Holly Logans). It's a unique skill that is in high demand. And then on top of that, it's really ideal to have an editor that likes (or at least understands) the sub-genre in which you tend to write.
I've seen a lot of authors here who are really, really good at editing their own stories. Some of them have told me that they will write their story, set it aside for a few weeks, and then do the substantive editing. Unfortunately, I never had the patience for that myself; I simply outlined my story and edited constantly as I went along.
The one nice thing about editing your own stories is that you get better at it and you also don't ever have to worry about whether your creativity will get checked.
Jodie
xoxo
I used to do a bit of editing
Since I can't write, I used to try to help my online friends with their writing (I got called Evil Ed too... )
One of the most common problems they had were being too close to their own stories. They knew what was happening/going to happen/had happened. And, they regularly left out important information. While too much detail can certainly hurt a story, too little is a more common problem.
Another was throwing in events in their stories (typically fan-fic) that they felt were neat or cute, but didn't contribute to the overall flow of the work and and goal to the piece. Some of them were really well written though. So it was hard recommended they pull the sections out and save them for another story.
And the third was having 1 or 2d characters, characters that that just existed to say something or be in a place, but had no recognizeable personality - or worse all the characters in the story have the SAME personality.
Luckily I didn't have to deal with plotting issues (except for one author). They all seemed to be able to come up with nice plots that worked - once the other elements were delt with. (The one exception occasionally needed help getting out of corners she'd worked her self into.)
So, as has been said, useful editing can be a lot of work. It can be rewarding too! There's a fine line between an editor HELPING an author and an editor writing the story for the author! There's also a line between constructive criticism and destructive criticism.
Working with an editor is a two way street. The author has to be free to make comments he/she deems are appropriate, and the author has to be willing to accept them in the vein intended - to help improve their work not to destroy it. Some authors just can't believe that their work has flaws. Others, are so convinced their work is flawed that no amount of of encouragement will help.
My 2 cents, not worth much more.
Phran
I've done some editing ...
... though, being English and most of the writers I've 'helped' are American, I have had to make allowances for different usage. I find editing far easier than writing - even editing my own stuff is easier than the first draft. In fact I tend to get a bit anal as I write and tend to correct as I go along, which I've always been told is 'a bad thing to do'. I cut my editing teeth when I edited a national bi-monthly, hobby magazine with a limited circulation of around 2000. Fortunately, most of it was selection and minor alteration rather than actually having to write the whole thing as is often the case with that sort of magazine. It was hard work, time consuming and tended to limit when I could go on holiday but was fun too.
I know what fleurie means. Although I have let various people loose on my deathly prose, I find it difficult to accept anything other than the odd typo/spelling/grammar oopsie corrections. I know what I want to say and ,usually, how I want to say it. That I have so few stories posted is clear evidence for my reluctance to expose myself or my babies to public scrutiny. A lot of what I've posted (most of 'Who hates Lola?') was seen by no-one but me before I committed it to the web.
Angela's point is irrefutable. No professional writer publishes cold. All of them have to accept a second (or third) opinion on their work. I don't know about newspaper columnists. I have a few I read regularly and I envy their ability to write articulate throw away stuff week after week. Most of what they write is tomorrow's chip shop wrapping - or was when I used to buy fish and chips.
Geoff
Why edit?
In most cases, I write because I wish to communicate an idea, emotion, experience, or something else along those lines. Once I've written something, I'll shift into reader mode. If I don't experience as a reader what I intended to communicate as a writer, I'll usually shift into editor mode and try to examine why the writer part of me didn't reach the reader part of me.
I have no idea how well this kind of perspective shifting works for others, but it usually works well for me. When the editor part of me is having difficulty figuring out a problem in communication, that's when I'll go to others for help.
At this stage in my development as a writer, I'm finding I ask for help a lot less often than I had been. It's not that I feel I couldn't benefit from an outside perspective. It's more that I'm being more experimental and I feel a need to try breaking some rules just to see what happens. If I hadn't had help earlier learning the rules, I don't know if I'd be able to break them in as interesting ways now. ;)
Writer--Artist--Dreamer
It's probably not the same thing...
I've only really tried my hand at writing fiction for the last few months, but I've had a bit of poetry published. The main difference I see is that poetry, for me at least, is a process of distillation where every word is worked on, and I don't think I've ever felt a piece completely finished (even when it's in print). Comments from editors are always welcome even if it's just 'stop rewriting it'. I much prefer that to workshopping, which can be utterly brutal. :)
With fiction I find it's the exact opposite. Instead of condensing I have to flesh out what I've written, and often, juggle several ideas at one time - it's so easy to be diverted. An editor would be a godsend.
Stories and poetry
I've experienced something similar when I shift between writing poetry and writing stories. There have been times when it feels like I have so much to tell in a story that I sometimes leave out things that people would need to make sense of what I'm saying. That's why I'll usually go back and flesh out parts.
Recently, I've sorta been experimenting with applying the condensing I usually apply to poetry to my stories, especially when I do drabbles like in my All of You series. While drabbles don't enjoy as much popularity as longer stories, they were fun to do and was an interesting shift in the way I usually thought about telling stories.
Writer--Artist--Dreamer
I must be the odd ball
I don't find the editing process to be an invasion of my creativity, but then again it may be the way I approach things. I seldom feel that I am being told what to do or write. I take it as advice or a different way to look at what is in front of me. Perhaps it has to do with my informal mechanical background. I would no sooner build/repair a motorcycle and give it back to a customer or use it myself unless it was ready to ride and reliable. It seems to me that a story has to be the same. I think it also has to do with all of the bits and pieces coming together to make a whole. Things can't be left off said motorcycle and still be expected to perform. So too things can't be left out of a story or transitions in it be abrupt to distract.
With that said, story presentation is important. I will again make a reference to motorcycles. My show bikes have been called easy on the eye meaning there is a simplicity to them. Nothing is there that shouldn't be and what is there is presented in such a way where it belongs there even if it wasn't originally designed to be there.
My latest story garnered flattering comments and I am thankful for receiving them but the story in its original form bears little resemblance to the first draft. There were things about it that bothered me but I couldn't figure out what was bothering me about it. Enter the editor. I sent the story off to Angela/Jill and she offered comments and direction. I did the same thing with Randalynn. Did their coments and direction alter the basic story? I think not because the story was the story. To be specific, that process caused additional bouts of creativity. For example, Angus was caught huming "The House at Pooh Corner." She sugggested I use the whole song so the all of the lyrics got used. It caused me to expand the story and move it differently. Yet, the original story line was kept in tact. There were countless other exchanges that caused the basic story to change but none of it ever interfered with the creative process. Each one cause parts of the story to expand or contract depending on the nature of the comment.
A second example came through an exchange of e-mails with Randalynn regarding how a person would act while tending a booth at a given show. I've worked my share of booths but her comments caused me to think about the act of doing so differently. Did the story line change? No. did it spark creativity? You bet.
Exchanges with Kristina caused me to remember my early days of riding and what my thoughts and perceptions were when encountering things for the first time. They made certain old things new.
I believe a writer and I use the term loosly when I refer to myself gets too close to the story and then loses sight of it. The story has to get out but it may not be believeable or convincing when it 'leaps out of the brain and onto the keyboard and screen.' The job of the editor as it appears to me is to say '...hey this sucks or this don't work because rational people aren't this way...." I don't think it is penance or punishment to go back and re-think or re-rewrite a scene because it may very well lead to an new or better scene.
Finally I might add that I equate the editing process with some of the students I've trained to ride motorcycles. Some are eager to try new things so they take comment and coaching as a sponge would absorb water. On the other hand there are some who say "...why do I need to learn this - all I want is a license...."
I am hopeful that my thoughts on this subject will not create yet another editing/proofreading/invasion of ideas riot because its intent was to present familiar gound differently.
Dimmelza
Dimelza - That Cuts It
Seeing how little you really value my involvement is quite enlightening; I will never edit for you again.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela, I think you've misunderstood ...
... what Dimleza is saying. As I read it, she valued what you (and others) did. In fact she says you triggered a new round of creativity. All she says is that the basic story didn't change. How could it? What did change as the result of your involvement is how the story unfolded and how the characters reacted to different situations and how she described those situations.
You (and Randalyn) helped her to polish the story but the basic idea was (is) still the originators. Once an editor becomes involved in the basic plot line or changes the premise of a story they're no longer editors but joint authors and so should take credit as such. As I understand it, editors for professional writers may suggest (or even mandate)changes to the way a story is written but that can't change the plot substantially.
Geoff
Edit
I like having someone look over what I've written for I'm not sure if it makes sense or not. For myself it is a confidence issue not to mention catching those grammar mistakes. Formal writing classes for me was some 20 or 30 years ago. Hopefully over the last year I've improved not only the story quality, but also reduced the errors. To take the step of not having a second pair of eyes double check me scares me. Of course I lack the patience to shelve a completed tale for a couple weeks so I can self-edit. :) If picking someone else's brains will help improve a tale of my, I'm all for it. The final decision is of course always the writer's.
hugs!
grover
Editing or self-editing?
I self-edit. I've read a few books on writing and I try to follow the advice when it makes sense, which is the vast majority of the time. Those books are like little editors sitting over my shoulder, knowledgeable and thick with writing wisdom. They help me use the best possible tried and true techniques to communicate my story to the readers, for whom I write, and I'm a better and improving writer for those little literary demons. I do not sneer at the masters.
Is this the best way? No. I do it solo because I'm impatient to get it "out there" as quickly as possible, and I had trouble finding an editor in the beginning who would give me a shot and wasn't months behind; it became a habit. I recognize very well that a decent second opinion or four is always better than none. Without another point of view, sometimes you get lucky, but this isn't normal in my experience. My helpful feedback usually comes after I've already posted the story -- a little late to help out except for the re-write.
Of course, if you're writing purely for yourself ... but who really is?
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
Get it Away from Me
I admit to finding myself too often in the It burns, It burns, get it away from me camp. I also personally see it as a huge imposition to ask someone to volunteer to proof or edit something I write.
With that said, my stories would definitely be better if I could get past those hurdles.
Same here
Too right. A more or less finished story can sure burn and sizzle on a hard drive.
I'll edit when I have the time, but, as you know, it can be an investment. I've done major reviews of novels that take all day, and edited novel-sized stories, sometimes spending forty hours or more to do them. For that reason, like you, I hesitate to ask another to look over one of mine. Poor John from far Wauwatosa: I imagine him struggling through 2.3M of Warrior From Batuk. It must have taken him days just to read, much less jot down his comments.
Hmm. I live on a healthy-sized piece of land filled with trees. Maybe I can pay for editing with carbon credits. :)
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
I self-edit...
Sounds like a line from a meeting of authors anonymous, and I may be the worst self editor there is. If I had the confidence to allow others to edit my work, and knew some who would, I would.
But, there is no implied or implicit contract between me and any reader. And there won't be until/if I start selling my fiction. (At which point I'd expect to a)Be edited by at least a pro editor, and b)Be a better writer anyway.)
I have a blog: http://www.incessant-logic.net I update it about once a week, especially since I moved to Wordpress, I will continue to write that blog until I run out of hosting/money/patience. How many people see that blog, reply to my posts or even read through everything there is entirely immaterial, they aren't the reason I do it.
The same can be said about my fiction, I write because I need to write, not because I need to be read. If anyone enjoys my stories that is a bonus for me, but if everyone hated them and I was universally panned for writing rubbish, I'd still write it.
The Legendary Lost Ninja