I have to stick my 2 cents in here. Any way it turns out, the "poachers" were breaking a law of some kind, whether it was "jack-lighting deer", hunting out of season, hunting where they shouldn't, shooting without making sure of their target, or playing a Bush or Cheney, etc, etc. The fact remains, they were breaking a law. Maybe several.
I have no problem with people that don't carry or like guns. They are heavy, make lots of loud noise, and are scary things, and do nasty things like hurt and kill people. Unfortunately, thats what they are designed for.
I would not force anyone to carry or use a gun. But I will do my best to make sure that anyone that does, can, and can do so properly. This involves training. And not just a 1 hr or even an 8 hour class. I would like to see any gun buyer have to take a class on the gun, unless they have already done so, and can prove it.
Police recruits get at least 40 hrs training, before they are ever introduced to the gun and ammo. Then there is a minimum of 40 hours training with it on how to use it and to demonstrate proficiency with it. And that is 40 hours hands on, not a 40 hour span that includes lunch and breaks. And the instructors stay around after hours to help out anyone that might be having a few problems, or want extra help. And this includes stone dark of night, minimum light, good and bad weather, thousands of rounds, under as much stress as we can put on them, including things like running oh, 500 yards, full out, then having to find their gun where we have hidden the pieces, assembling it, loading it, and then shooting at the target all under time, and they have to reach a specified level of profiency to pass this part.
Civilians can be trained to a lower level as they will probably never have to be in these straits, but they need to be aware things happen. Why else would they want or need a gun. Or how about being blind folded, spun in a circle until you puke, then having to find your gun and make sure it is working, then finding the target and neutralizing it, all the while six instructors are screaming at you.
There is no such thing as an accidental discharge or an accidental shooting. There is only stupidity on the shooter (or the gun handler)'s part.
The funniest thing I ever saw was an idiot that shot himself in the shoulder while trying to use a pipe cutter to cut off the barrel of a shotgun. Made lots of noise, scared the hell out of his wife and kids, and the people in the apt upstairs, and made one hell of a mess on the walls and ceiling of the bedroom he was in. Made a mess of the shoulder also. He was lucky he chose to saw off a 410 shotgun not a 12 gauge. He would not have had an arm if it had been a 12 guage. He told me he was tryng to adjust the sights, like you would use a pipe cutter to do so. The judge didn't think so either.
Back in the bad old days, people grew up with guns. They were used to feed the family, and defend the homestead. Everone knew about them, and how to use them. Once people moved to the cities, that need was lost and the majority of city people have never held a gun, or even seen a real one. Even with the re-ruralification going on now,(people leaving the city to live in the suburbs or even further away from a city and commute to work), the majority still have no idea. It is harder and harder each year to get the recruits up to snuff, as they have to basic idea before starting. Of course, that sometimes makes it easier, since they have no bad habits to unlearn, or preconceived notions of what to do or that they are good, or don't need help. And that's great. Except for the predators out there.
I understand from people involved in training, that when it was decided to arm segments of the British police, and in other countries where guns are not common, that the had many problems getting the guys up to snuff. They were staring from scratch, not liike it was back in the 40s when the military was taking anyone they could get. Even the US military has problems with trainees, since so many have no idea. It adds time and expense to get them up to par.
Beyond that. After 34 years carrying a gun, I seldom leave the house without one. And after my residences have been broken into at least 6 times over the years, even at home, one is seldom far from me. And if I am away from one, I still have my big honking, spyderco and my sog in my trouser pockets. And in uniform, a couple more hidden around.
But that is just my "paranoia" after all the years. Is it still being paranoid if they really are out to get you?
An evil doer that is willing to die cannot be stopped no matter how many guns and knives the target or bodyguards have, but knowing there will be weapons involved makes many, many of them think twice or even stop. The professionals just pass on by, while the desperate don't care anyway. And there are way too many people out there that need drugs, or money, or are too lazy to work for what they want, or they have learned that taking from those that have something, is easier than working and waiting for what they want. And the gratuitious violence in video games, and movies and television shows has not helped one tiny bit. All those kids that run around shooting up schools have been in training for years playing their video games. After a nice clean kill, the bad guy vanishes with no mess, and if they are killed, why they just get a new lifeforce and continue on. But those are just games, and the toymakers have to make a living too.
Time to get off my soapbox. This is probably not a good place for this discussion anyway.
And Angharad, you go right on believing and feeling that way. Thats what you believe and there is nothing wrong with it. I mean no disrespect at all. But if you ever need a "White Hat", I'll be there. You too, Gabi and Geoff, that is your right.
Comments
Follow up
I should clarify that I have worked as a street cop for 34 years, and more than 25 of that I also did training for other officers in addition to regular duties. One person said, they refused me permission to save their life. I guess, since I was hired and trained by "society" to enforce the laws that "society" enacted to preserve the peace and prosperity of "civilization" that I don't need a person's permission, it has already been given by the "society" and tax payers that hired and trained me. And, if I stumble on the crime or fail to respond to a radio run of a crime in progress, etc, or fail to respond to a call for help, I can be sued. Reckon even those that don't want help will get it from "society", whether they like it or not.
Growing up with guns
There are still parts of the country where we grew up with guns and the kids there now are doing the same. The Ozarks is a big one. About 20 - 30 years ago, Missouri started requiring a Hunter's Education course (essentially, two weeks of spending 4 hours per day [40 hours] in class, and 2 hours per day [20 hours] hands on training) for 7th graders. I had a cousin in a larger city (Springfield) who told me about how frustrated the instructors were with kids that just didn't "get it" in the class. Then there were those of us at a place like my hometown. If there were any kids (boy or girl) who had never shot a gun before the class, they had to have just moved there from a city that year.
Also, the idea of hunting for "sport" was alien to me. I didn't understand hunting something and letting all that meat go to waste!
Edeyn Hannah Blackeney
Wasn't it Jim Henson who said, "Without faith, I am nothing," after all? Wait, no, that was God. Sorry, common mistake...
Sorry .... What's the thread?
I must have missed what occasioned this.
The subject has a morbid fascination for me. The prevalence of a gun culture in the US is, together with the origins of the First World War, something that has always baffled me. I am eternally grateful that I missed one and don't have to live with the other so both interests are theoretical. So much safer!
Still it is interesting ....
So what prompted this intriguing "two cents"?
A propos to absolutely nothing at all, I heard on the radio that the coins so beloved by pirates' parrots - the pieces of eight - could actually be divided into eight and that, two of such being a handy amount (The exact details I have forgotten) such were the origin of the American "two bits". Probably everyone over there knows this, but I didn't. Even Jove nods.
Hugs,
Fleurie
Falling Off A Bike 112 thread drift
Fleurie,
The Gun discussion is a spin off from the comments for Easy As Falling Off A Bike 112.
http://bigclosetr.us/topshelf/fiction/4870/easy-falling-bike...
Stacey was trying to move the discussion to it's own thread. Maybe she should have mentioned that at the beginning of this Gun thread to avoid confusion.
Mr. Ram
Relocated thread
I simply took Stacy's comment on EAFOAB and converted it into a blog, after telling Stacy I could if desired and getting her permission. :)
- Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Shave and a haircut...
The Spanish Piece of Eight and its imitator, the German Joachimsthaler (or just Thaler) were the direct ancestors of the American silver dollar; a Quarter is two-eighths of a dollar (two bits). Dollars (and quarters) haven't been made of silver since 1964 and thanks to inflation you can't even buy a disposable razor for two bits anymore, but that little ditty is just too catchy to go away.
Another note...
The Spanish dollar was eight reales, chosen just for the convenience of chopping the coin into "bits" with a chisel. The Spanish also minted a ten reales piece. Captured Spanish galleons made these "pieces of ten" fairly common in England where they circulated as "crown-and-sixpence" or some other value depending on weight and silver content.
- Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Lethal weapons
I don't own (nor have I ever owned) a firearm of any sort, though my father (ex-military, but tends to view resorting to violence, even in self-defense, as a failure of the intellect and imagination, which sometimes happens to even the best of us, or as emotional immaturity) made sure my sister and I were sufficiently familiar with their proper and safe care and usage. Having had a few ancestors who fought in the Revolution and one who voted against ratification of the Constitution at the Connecticut convention, I understand thoroughly that the Second Amendment has nothing to do with hunting or protecting oneself from burglary; it's about the People retaining the power to back up the rights they have on paper in the face of a tyrannical government, and the recognition from hard experience that even the most enlightened forms of government can, if unchecked in some such way, turn tyrannical. I won't get into the debate over whether the means specified in the Second Amendment have become anachronistic; the point is, it's a deeply ingrained part of American culture and has been since day one, and isn't going to change any time soon.
All that being said, the fact is, in spite of what you see in the media and from Hollywood, gun violence is statistically just not one of the top problems in the US in general. I don't mean at all to belittle the suffering of those it does affect directly or indirectly, but I've lived in or near big cities all my life and have yet to see any firearm being wielded outside a firing range or in the back woods. True, my cousin was once mugged in broad daylight in Detroit - by a man with a BB gun (my cousin, a former Army MP, when demanded to turn over his wallet, said "or what - you'll put my eye out?" At which point the mugger produced a knife). When it happens, yes, it's awful; but it's (thankfully) rare and most people are never affected by it. I also don't mean to contradict or dismiss the experience of police officers, who are affected by it on a daily basis, but only to point out that they see virtually every instance of it so what they experience in no way reflects the experience of the average citizen.
On the other hand, I personally witnessed a friend of mine in high school die in a horrible car wreck (caused by, you guessed it, emotional immaturity on the part of the driver), and have passed any number of such incidents on the highway over my lifetime. The number of people in the US who are killed by cars each year exceeds the number of American soldiers killed in the entire course of the Korean war and approaches that of Vietnam. I don't have statistics on it, but based on the amount of roadside carnage I wouldn't be surprised to find that cars kill more wildlife than hunters, too. This has been going on since the dawn of the automobile age, and yet no one is calling for a ban on private automobiles. Yes, they have a purpose aside from causing death or injury, but so does private gun ownership, and I'd argue that preserving liberty - and more importantly, reinforcing the idea that preserving liberty is the individual and collective responsibility of the People and not the government - is more essential to our way of life than the automobile, and a more worthy cause in which to put lives at risk than mere "convenience." Not to mention that guns are not a significant source of greenhouse gases.
Guns are scary. Cars are scarier. Responsibility is scarier still.
In my old life.
When I was growing up, a loaded rifle stood in the unlocked front door of the house on our farm. Even very little, I knew not to touch it, and I suppose that with my feminine nature, that was enough.
I was heavily conditioned to be a male, and it is surprising how much you can change a person's mind by beathing them half to death.
So, when Vietnam came around, I wound up in the Army, but did not go in country. They made me a Military Policeman, and if I remember correctly that I was the smallest MP in the company. I was tiny enough that everyone told me to stay in the car when we went to a brawl.
I was, however very good with the .45 and in the years since my military service had the need to draw it twice. Once was to ward off a robber, and the other time was to ward off a would be rapist. I am sure that both those people suffered traumatic alteration to their synapses. One was actually bawling and pleading for mercy as he ran around the corner. I was going to gut the fellow, but once he turned around he was no longer a legal or moral target. I thought I was going to have to shoot the rapist. I let the person get far too close (about 6 feet), but as soon as they saw the sewer pipe pointing at them, they were gone.
Looking back the humorous part is that the attacker was in my apartment attacking me and when I ran them off, "they" called the cops. Must have been high on dope or something. I called 911 as soon as I stopped bawling. When the cops came, I stepped out into the hall and found at least 3 cops there with automatic weapons pointed at me.
I was in the middle of transition and before I would open the door, I told them it was self defense, that I was transgendered and I was not coming out with out a woman there. They of course handcuffed me, but were really gentle because I had started to bawl again, and they had been told by the Land Lord that I was disabled.
Well, they walked me down to the squad, sat me down and started asking questions. I knew from my carry permit classes that the only answer I should give the police was "I thought they were going to kill me". (I did too, or at least mess me up really bad). They eventually let me go, and I found out that they were well aquainted with the perp, who had just gotten out after 7 years in the slammer. The Perp was also high on dope so the perp is the one who took the ride.
Gwenellen
My two cents on guns
Depending on where you live decides the gun or lackof gun culture.Growing up we never had guns in the house and I grew up in rural New England.The first time I was exposed to a gun was in the boyscouts and it was to target shoot a twenty two rifle.After that three years in the Infantry really conditioned me to carrying a weapon( My mother said it would make a man of me Ha).I was stationed in Berlin and I think a lot of why Europeans are mostly against private gun ownership has to do with their firsthand experience with how awfull war is.Europe is a great place but it isn't America we shouldn't try to influence their laws and they shouldn't try to influence our laws.I now live in Arizona and it has some of the most relaxed gun laws in the country.Many people wear fully loaded holstered pistols and it is a good idea to have one if your out and about in the desert.Amy M (P.S I grew up in a conservative Christian home if I didn't act masculine all hell broke loose.)