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Erin shut off the comments on Samantha Jay's blog and I don't want to discuss Forced Fem -- so I'll take the discussion on a different path.
When a person decides to write and post a story they create an implied contract with the reader. That much I think we can agree upon. It is at that point that we, the authors of BC, hold vastly different opinions.
I believe when you start to tell someone a story you should have a middle and end in mind. . .as was said in Ground Hog Days and at least one other movie (I believe Planes, Trains, and Automobiles) when you're telling a story, try to have a point, it makes it so much more interesting for the listener. Yet, there are many on BC who think it's perfectly okay to start a story and post it as a serial with no end in sight. I understand both perspectives. I've written with and without an outline. I find an outline helpful, but also restrictive.
I believe a story should follow a certain logical pattern and should be told from a restricted character point of view -- preferably the point of view of one character. Three of my longer stories have shifting POV at the chapter breaks. When I started writing I wrote with a shifting point of view, unless I was in first person. It took me forever to understand the difference and to apply that regimen. I found it worth it. The vast majority of third person stories on BC have multiple points of view. I think that makes it hard for the reader to identify with the narrater. Others obviously do not.
I believe the contract with the reader states you will do your utmost to make it easy for the reader to read your story. That would include conforming to some standards. Many authors here think that is nonsense. They believe if the story is compelling the reader will have a relaxed attitude about "rules" -- see The Da Vinci Code. Maybe so - it worked for Dan Brown. I was taught you always cleaned your house before company came over as a matter of respect. Maybe I'm wrong.
I'm certain the contract includes a whole lot of warranties because my readers get upset if I step into a different style or genre. I'm sure Vicki Tern's readers would scream if she suddenly wrote magical stories with strong-willed protagonists.
What do others -- authors and readers - think exists in the implied contract?
Erin -- if this is too close to the thread you closed -- well you have a delete button.
Jill
Comments
I think it's worth discussing.
It doesn't point to any specific genre.
The following is my personal opinion.
First, IS there a contract? I think so. If we post a story - either a "complete" one, chapters of what will be a complete story, or a serial without a "specified" ending, I believe we owe it to ourselves and our readers to complete the "contract". That said, I believe the contract is different for each of the above post types.
Stand-alone post. This kind of story should come to a "conclusion", and unless sequels are planned (& readers are told of this) all important threads in the story should be resolved (sorta house cleaning). If some threads are intentionally not resolved, this can be disconcerting to the reader and may lead to a feeling of unsatisfaction (not always recognized as why).
A multi-posted complete story. This kind of story should also have a "conclusion" - even if the author isn't finished writing it before posting (though this is better, as evidenced by several really good stories that suddenly stop on this site - Including one of mine. As with some of them, mine does have a planned ending, only RL has intruded in slowing me down). I think in this case, it's good faith for the author to indicate whether the story's complete or not (while posting).
On the serials - some don't have any real ending (as far as can be discerned) per say. The contract there is that each "episode" is enjoyable, as are many combined. They fit into the same category as the "day time soap operas" or some of the evening "soaps" - a continuing story line.
There are hybrids of the later two - where the characters seem to go on for a large number of episodes, but there are several discrete "endings" - multi=volume novel/stories. In these stories, I believe that each story should be able to a large extent stand on it's own feet. Yes, it may be better to read them in the intended order, but should a reader start out of sequence, He should be able to start on page one of any of the stories and get a complete story. One good example (In my opinion) are the "Dragonriders of Pern" novels by Anne & now Todd McCaffrey. They can be read in many different orders. Random reading isn't recommended, as several groupings are continuations of previous stories. Ms. McCaffrey recommend reading in the order written, rather than in "chronological" order as they occur in the "world" of Pern.
As I think more on this, I feel that yes, there IS a contract.
Another point you raise is quality. I believe you're suggesting that it's only fair for us to write to the best of our ability. For some of us (myself included) this means one or more "editors". I think it means that if we present something as "fact" in a world like our own, we should have done the research to insure that it really is true (or substantially true). In a fantasy or science fiction world, there's less "onus" on the author to make sure he/she doesn't include errors of fact, but even there, it is important for them to provide stories that are internally consistent. (Something that works for the good guys, should also work for the bad guys being one example.)
There are a number of authors here who tell very engaging stories - that pull you in. Some of them execute their stories in a very professional manner (mechanically correct, and the like) others seem to not be so bothered by the mechanics. One piece is Point of View (POV). When a story is written from a single POV, it's fairly easy to determine where things are coming from. It's not common for people that make a successful living writing to do a good job of shifting POV. Some do it by chapter (as you suggest) others are able to make it work out with several changes within chapters (Harry Turtledove and David Eddings both manage this to varying degrees of success IMO). There are also some authors that have all the mechanics down, but tend to write stories that leave some readers cold. I liken this last to movies that may win critical acclaim but are pan'd by the audience, and movies that are hated by the critics, but loved by the audience. We have stories like both of these here.
I just realized I'm rambling, so I'll stop here, and hope that if anyone got this far, they found something useful in it.
Annette
Contract with reader
"I believe the contract with the reader states you will do your utmost to make it easy for the reader to read your story."
This does not mean the author has to use 6th Grade grammar. It does mean that the author will at least use spell checker. And, if we, the reader is lucky, one or more proof reading passes. Stories that make one think and are challenging can be fun too. The more challenging to the reader the better the author has to be to carry it off. Some can do it, others shouldn't even pick up a pen or touch the keyboard. Thankfully this site has more of the former and fewer of the latter.
And that's my 2 Cents worth
Linda Jeffries
Too soon old, too late smart.
Linda Jeffries
Too soon old, too late smart.
I disagree
Not every story needs to be easy to read. Sometimes the reader has to work at it, but the writer implicitly promises that the result will be worth it.
I think the only contract between the writer and the reader is the simple statement, "Read this and you will get a story." If a piece turns out to be absolutely unconnected scenes or some surreal jumble of words, the contract is broken, but otherwise it's pretty much anything goes.
Also, I feel that by requiring your story to have a point-of-view character, you're needlessly limiting the stories that can be told. Many worthwhile reads have been told with an omniscient narrator.
I vary my style all the time; I'm sure it probably annoys some reader who wants to pigeonhole me as a writer of sweet romances to find that I also make creepy and silly stories. I don't think a writer needs to play to audience expectations.
Within the mechanisms of BCTS, I'd say the two most important rules are first, to accurately tag your stories, so that readers that prefer or dislike a particular kind of story will know if yours is what they're looking for; and second, to be honest in your synopsis or teaser, so that when someone reads your story it will match what you promised them and they won't feel short-changed or betrayed.
Implied contract?
If such a thing exists I believe it's nothing more than that the author try to write a good story. I agree it should have a logical pattern, and I always start out with at least an idea of a beginning, middle and end. I almost always use an outline and I never find it restrictive because I make it fluid enough that it can evolve as the story does. I think an author has an obligation to make their writing as technically correct as possible, and in the case of self posted stories such as we deal with here to ensure it is formatted in a way that makes it readable, but that's as far as I think any obligation to make it easy to read goes.
The idea that a single point of view is preferable is frankly silly to me. When I think of some of my favorite novels I can't think of one that was told from such a limited POV. Unless it's a short story, I find limiting the POV boring and a bit lazy; a big story should be, well, big, expansive, and when you restrict the POV you make it small. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it is certainly in no way preferable. That is strictly a matter of personal taste, but if you limit yourself to only reading stories told from a single POV you'll miss out on a huge number of excellent works. I've used both single and shifting POV; it all depends on the story being told and what is required to tell it.
Scott
I cried for her.
I cried for me.
I cried for a world that wouldn’t let her be.
-- from Luna by Julie Anne Peters
http://genomorph.tglibrary.com/
Bree
The difference between fiction and reality? Fiction has to make sense.
-- Tom Clancy
http://genomorph.tglibrary.com/ (Currently broken)
http://bree-ramsey314.livejournal.com/
Twitter: @genomorph
I view with the greatest distrust .....
.... arguments which commence with phrases such as 'That much I think we can agree upon'. My invariable reaction is to find some point of disagreement.
In this case it isn't difficult.
Dear Jill I think we are going to disagree again. I really find the statement "When a person decides to write and post a story they create an implied contract with the reader." totally without foundation. I certainly don't accept that by posting here I have created a contract, implied or otherwise, with any reader. I wouldn't post here if I thought this was so.
I have no obligation to make what I write palatable, easy to read, pleasing, fulfilling, morally uplifting, or anything else, to any reader. Not have I any obligation to attach any health warning to them. I write what I write. The tale exists. I am naturally pleased if it in turn pleases some other discriminating souls. But obligation? Implied contract? Bollocks!
That any such mythical, highly hypothetical, contract should dictate the style forbidding me to "step into a different style or genre" I find a bizarre notion. The whole point of my tales is that each one has to be in a different genre. I have a horror of repetition. I can't do anything about the writing style because that is my voice trying to suit whatever action is being undertaken. But all else is as different as I can make it. That is were my interest lies. It is my challenge to myself.
I have only myself to please. By any neutral, disinterested, analytical, literary, discriminating, standard what I write may well be, probably is, crap. But that is unimportant. Its value lies in the fact that I have done it.
What else can I disagree with?
Well just my old aversion to rules I suppose. I don't really see why I should abide by any restrictions imposed by others. I count myself blessed that in my ignorance I can happily break all and any arcane shibboleths without even being aware of my transgressions. Otherwise I dare say I would hardly sleep o' nights.
Ah well. Takes all sorts ....
Hugs,
Fleurie
My Dearest Fleurie
Yes, we disagree, but we do have the common ground (our common gown) of a love of the Victorian.
Your perspective is valid and worthy of consideration. If just one writer, who otherwise would present her ideas on BC, walks away because of the rules -- I should be hung from the highest yardarm for insisting they be upheld.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Dearest Angela....
.... I could never fault you on grounds of generosity of spirit.
I strongly suspect that you have just been trying to wind me up in a outflowing of festive gaiety. Confess now! Just between ourselves. No one else need ever know. You have been taking advantage of my propensity for intemperate rantings. Playing the Devil's Advocate in the manner born.
The more I think about it, the more grows the conviction that you secretly agree with me. Come on! 'Fess up. :)
Hugs,
An implied contract?
My initial thought would be, well not really, at least beyond a here's a story maybe it will interest you. But there is a bit more to it than that.
It should be as presentable as possible, that is, as few errors in grammar and spelling as possible and spaced etc to aid reading. The grammar stuff is negotiable where speech and thoughts are concerned though. People do tend to not speak proper and as for thoughts…eek. Care with proofing and such is a must and a second pair of eyes never hurts and can be a boon. I read one I posted a few years ago recently and found a few little errors, no one gets them all. But you can try.
Ease of reading beyond the spacing and stuff. Hmmm, yes but then it's nice to make people think too. So follow it because it's nicely laid out and readable but not necessarily simple in plot terms, so potentially un-simple or something. Of course simple is fine too depending on the tale.
Advertising. Ah the title and synopsis and all that should give clues but not I think give it all away, unless it doesn't matter. That said due care with tags and warnings on nasty or potentially disturbing scenarios.
I suppose I have a tendency to play about with rules some. Mess with the POV and switch viewpoints here and there. Muck about in the language toolbox. Usually there's some method to it but of course not everyone will appreciate the reasoning. You can only do this so far though before it gets tedious or unintelligible. No one can ignore the rules too much. By all means play about but take care how you do it.
Ultimately it all comes back to why. Why write it in the first place. Whatever happens has to fit the internal reality that every story has, mess that up too much and you blow the deal. To me it all comes back to the feeling. It has to feel right in terms of the story. Emotion and feelings based on what is going on. A personal fantasy or exorcism, messing with a theme or idea, following a thread. Whatever the basis it has to work for you the author and the contract is to do your best to bring the reader along with you. To make them feel it and see it as close to what you felt and saw, wherever you are going. You can jump about on route but it has to pull together before the end. Not all questions need answering though I think.
Sometimes a tough gig, but hey that's what's it's all about. Scribble on people. It's supposed to fun too. Everything depends always, absolutes are very few.
Initially it's for and by the author. Then it's out there and belongs to some degree to the audience. Always consider the effort that went into it and be thoughtful in your responses. Criticism is fine if done in context and politely, no one wants only simple 'ooh love your work dear', nice as that can be. Two way street lovee's, I know I don't write in a vacuum. I do need air and thoughtful response to something any writer will breathe in even if not always sweet.
Thoughtful, it cuts both ways.
Kristina
a few points
(1) A story need not have a single point of view. Consider the Japanese classic drama "Rashomon", in which the whole point is that the same story is retold from several points of view, with no final conclusion being drawn.
(2) Obviously a story should be complete, but it may not end where the author originally planned it to end. In my own case, after I wrote what I thought was a complete story, several people asked me for a sequel and so I obliged. Sometimes this works (as in the case of "Women and Children First") and sometimes it seems to flop (as in the case of "Doughboy").
Melissa
I was going to comment, but...
...my cousin Amelia Manfredonia, wanted to discuss this matter, so I defer to her.
Bein' as I'm frum Bayonne, I have an entirely different point of view. My Great Uncle and Aunt usta live in Chicago, and the whole family lives in Jersey, know what I mean? So when you say contract...it has a difrent meanin' heah than where youse comes from, cacpice? Cousin 'Drea wanted me to promise to tell youse her point of view....her "contract" with da readers is to write what she knows and feels strongly about, and maybe it'll bring something important to da reader....ya know? A connection...somethin' to make da reader think and maybe get somethin' out of it. And maybe heah back from dem what dey liked and how could she write bettah? Ya know? Sincerely, Amelia Salvatricia Manfredonia. Thanks.
P.S. I thought about it and I hafta agree with my cousin...Jill is adorable, ain't she?
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Possa Dio riccamente vi benedica, tutto il mio amore, Andrea
Love, Andrea Lena
We're back to the old chestnut
of why and how we write.
I write firstly because I enjoy doing it. I do it because others seem to enjoy reading it. I also feel I have issues to explore which relate to transgender people and their situations or experiences, or I have opinions I want to share.
I usually use an unplanned format, but can also work to a framework. Despite my apparent rambling narrative, which some appear to like, there is a discipline. Some use discipline to refine and refine what they write until they are happy with it. My discipline is to give up an hour or two nearly everyday and to write and post something.
I like to play with styles and genres and have one or two readers who will tell me when I get it wrong as well as when it works. Most of the stuff I post here I consider suitable for a certain young lady, who is one of my staunchest fans and voluble critics. The fact that it's suitable for most adults is a useful by-product.
Angharad
Angharad
Writing Contract
I have a contract with myself to present a story that says what I want to say to the best of my abilities (which may not be very good). Most of the time, I have a definite ending in mind before I put any words to the 'paper'. The first thing I ever wrote in the fiction genre was "The Heart of the Beholder". I had some obvious goals in mind; however, there were a number of issues that had to be resolved. The story was starting to get too involved and cumbersome, when I suddenly realized that the point I had reached was the perfect place to draw the story to a close. I had to do a lot of cleaning up and eventually deleted more than 50,000 words. After that opus, I was able to compress things a bit in future stories, maybe too much. I could probably expand Musetta's Waltz a bit. I will be honest. How it was to end was unclear for a while. Then I knew what had to happen. Several readers were unhappy with the ending, and I understand why. The ending was sad. I can't change that ending because four other novels have incorporated that ending in their own stories. What I am saying is that an author needs consistency within a story as well as among related stories. I read a story on FM the other day that contradicted previous statements and even changed people's names. The author obviously dashed it off and posted it without ever proofing it. It was a very careless effort.
I have a contract to present each story in as proper language as I am able. Since I am not an educated writer, i.e. I have no literary training, I need many eyes to fix my grammatical, syntax, and other errors. Why would I want to present a story that I feel strongly about, and have it rife with spelling, word usage and grammatical errors? It doesn't make sense. Yet, I see stories posted here and elsewhere that are so poorly constructed, they destroy their worth as communications. What does it say about the author?
I have a contract with myself to never post an incomplete story. Many authors and composers leave fragments of ideas in their notebooks. Can you imagine Franz Schubert coming to another composer in early 19th century Vienna and saying, "I've got this symphony I've been working on, and I can only get two movements completed. I have some ideas for the other two movements, but they aren't working out. Why don't you finish it for me?" No, he put it away along with some fragments. He did have a small group perform the movements in private, but it was never performed for the public in his lifetime. He literally left hundreds of fragments, as did Beethoven, and others. Some fragments do stand alone; however, I don't think one would ever put together a concert of a composer's fragments, anymore would a publisher put together a volume of incomplete novels and literary fragments, other than for academic purposes. Some composers do eventually return to their ideas and modify them, rework them into complete works.
I think feedback from a limited group can be important. Maybe we fit into that category.
Then again, maybe I have it all wrong. Maybe BCTS is just a test bed for some authors, and a platform for others. However, putting ideas out for discussion is one thing. Putting 20 chapters of an incomplete novel on, but then just dropping it is another. Schubert's action was better, although it turned out that several of his fragments could stand alone. I don't feel that literary fragments can .
Portia
Portia
Implied Contract
Jill,
A site like BCTS has to be looked at differently from the world of professional publishing. I think when a reader buys a book, there are some things they should be able to expect. If I buy a book and it is full of formatting and spelling errors I'm going to be annoyed that I spent money on it.
I should say unintentional ones, since intentional ones can make a book. For example, I have a book called The Real Diary of a Real Boy, by Henry Shute. It is written as though a boy from the 1860's had written it and is completely and intentionally done that way. http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/5111 if anyone is interested. My copy was my Grandfather's and is therefore a cherished heirloom. But I digress.
In any case, here on BCTS we have authors at various stages, who write for many different reasons. Big Closet is just that a big closet for all kinds of stories related to the Transgender themes. The rules here are pretty lax, and to my mind that is a good thing.
Take my own story, Jason's Story for example. That story nor its sequel could not have been written had I waited until I had a defined start, middle and end. I wrote it as a therapeutic exercise as a "What if?" I admit that when I wrote the first chapters back in 2005 over on FM, I had no idea where it would ultimately lead. I was exploring the idea. In fact it sat for two years, for many reasons that you and I have discussed before. When I did pick it up again, I worked out short arcs, I would have a goal to get to in several chapters.
Part of the reason I picked it back up again was because I saw here on BCTS the opportunity to post pieces of it and get real feedback that could help me to write it.
I know that Jason is far from perfect. From the feedback I have received many have enjoyed it anyway. With your help and suggestions, I am seriously looking at rewriting it as we have discussed to tighten up the story and make it better, and that is wonderful, and I greatly appreciate your help. My point in all this though, is there is no way I could have gotten to that point, had I waited until I had an ending worked out in the first place.
BCTS allowed me to work through those issues that led me to write Jason's Story, and to get some wonderful (and addicting) comments from the community here. It has given me the confidence that I can tell a story and have people enjoy it, and actually care about what happens to my characters. To me that has been a wonderful thing, and has given Kristy an outlet she does not have in real life, and that is priceless.
I agree with some of what others have said regarding formatting and spell checking, etc. We all make mistakes, when I reread one of my stories, I cringe over some of the stuff that I have missed. It happens, but there is a difference between an occassional mistake, and an entire document that is full of them. As a reader I will give up on a story that is too hard because of typo's and formatting problems. I feel if the author doesn't care enough to make it legible then I don't need to read it.
That is different from being complex or thought provoking, I will work to understand a story if it is compelling.
Alright, now I'm rambling, so I will end it here.
Hugs,
Kristy
"Then he woke up...
...and found it had all been a dream," is a lowest form of breach of writer's contract.
But there are plenty others, such as a mystery story where the author invents new facts at the end to get out of a mess.
One other form I hate is when a story starts off as one genre eg a romantic novel, and turns into another, perhaps involving torture or vicious violence. This is one of those times when I feel that art should not be allowed to copy real life, where such twists can and do occur.
All authors should have a contract - some do not care, and probably lose readers as a result.
Multiple points of view
This can be a very effective writing technique when done correctly. There aren't many writers who have the skill to do it well. One story that employed the technique quite effectively was Richard Russo's novel 'Bridge of Sighs'. But if I remember the interview I attended, that isn't how the story started. It takes some planning to do it skillfully, and I doubt that writing a chapter posting it, then writing another and posting, etc. will allow you to that. I suspect it would take some rewriting to get it all to work.