TopShelf TG Fiction in the BigCloset!
Hi folks,
A question was raised today on HubPages about homophobes.
I know so many of you here have feelings about this as do I and I took it upon myself to produce a page which I hope sums up this issue, but I would welcome comments with regards to improving or including missing information.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Homophobia
I'd love to hear from you.
NB
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Comments
I am NOT gay
But the author of this piece lumps me in with gay people. This shows that that person does not understand transgender people at all well.
A great deal of the stick tg people have to face is because of just this, that we get "classed" the same as homosexual, lesbian and bisexuals. That's not at all what we're about. The incidence of gay transgenders is probably about the same as the incidence in gays in the "normal" population.
I repeat, I am NOT gay, and I resent being put in the same pigoenhole as gay people.
Penny
I never said you were
But since the term GLBT was coined as a blanket term for gays, lesbians, bisexuals and the transgendered, I referred to the whole.
It is my opinion that many ignorant people out there blanket people of GLBT type the same way and would treat a gay man, lesbian, bisexual or TG in the same way as they neither know or in many cases are uninterested in what they may feel are the subtle differences between the four. If homophobic as well as ignorant, they would be just as anti a TG girl who enjoys perfectly normal relationships with men as they would be with a gay man.
Whether you like it or not, this is the way I have seen T-girls treated and even after carefully explaining the difference, sadly, it didn't change their opinions.
In deference to your complaint however, I have removed all references to TG people and hope this makes the article better.
I do listen and try to understand - at least some of the time
Penny???
GLBT is a coalition of people with similar problems regarding guilt, shame, and persecution.
The GLB part has shafted the T part repeatedly when push came to shove with government or health professionals. The GLB part would just as soon Ts don't exist because we are considered the flamboyant weirdos of the group.
Life (for many) is all about establishing comparisons that allow you to come off pretty good . . . in your mind. In order for the majority of people to feel pretty good about themselves they need a big, yellow dog to kick. GLBT serves as that dog. In order for the GLBs to feel good about themelves the Ts serve as their big, yellow dog.
The psychology of a group is based on establishing a common enemy to rally against. Politicians understand this and cynically rally their constituencies against whatever groups are handy. It doesn't have to make any sense. Throughout history the Jews have served as one group that's been handy to hate.
Bill Clinton was so slick he managed to court the GLBTs during his election with promises of acceptance, and then stuck them with the first law that allowed for legal punishments of homosexuals (don't ask/don't tell). Bush cleverly used the Biblical term "evil-doers" to create a group of people to hate and to Biblically justify a pre-emptive war.
We see this prejudice in the T community with TS feeling superior to cross-dressers.
No . . . Penny. Your anger shouldn't be aimed at those who lump you in with gays. Your anger should be at those who have saddled you with the prejudice that makes you feel upset that you are considered gay.
Gay is not evil. TG is not evil. Hate is evil. Love and compassion are good.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
I am
Thanks, Penny, at least now I know where I stand.
KJT
"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
...
...
Discrimination from Gays and Lesbians
Hi Nick,
The problem for a gay or lesbian transgendered person is that we often are discriminated against by homosexuals. I see myself as a lesbian, but I've been told by a gay person that because I was born biologically male I can never be a lesbian. I have had other TG people and psychiatrists tell me I'll change my orientation and desire to be with a man, that believing I'm a lesbian will pass. Twenty years later and I'm still only attracted to women. I honestly wish I were bi, then finding a partner would be so much easier, but I'm not. I'm a lesbian. I always have been and I always will be.
I have read accounts of a M2F lesbian being attacked by lesbians for being a male invading their space or M2F being attacked 'for pretending to be a woman'. Now in most cases homosexuals are accepting or tolerant of a trangendered person, but much like so called 'normal' society they have their own segment within their population which discriminates against or hates transgendered people.
In the end though people will believe what they want to believe. They will use religion, science, statistics, philosophy, anecdotal evidence or whatever tool they can find to justify their own opinion. We all do this to some degree or other, even I'm guilty of it.
Now to comment on a previous comment, I don't think that being lumped in with the GLB crowd is necessarily a good thing for transgendered people. To so called normal society they then think that a M2F is just a gay person in denial, or that a F2M is a lesbian in denial. Being transgendered has absolutely nothing to do with my sexual orientation. Then again being lumped in with the GLB crowd gives us a stronger voice for getting discriminatory laws and business practices changed.
I wish people would just accept people. No matter who we are or what we choose to be, we are all different in some way. As you said Nick, the so called straight person can be involved in some of the worst types of behaviour and they will only be vilified by society if caught. Even GLBTQ people can be involved in the worst kinds of things. No one should be vilified if they are not hurting anyone or anything, merely because of what they are.
I hope that the above made sense and didn't offend anyone. It's early morning for me so I'm not fully awake. These are just my views and experiences, but I felt I had to comment.
Arwen
Thank you, Arwen
I made a fatal mistake by lumping you all together and I sincerely hope that I have rectified that in my update.
I am very sorry to anyone who was hurt by my lack of forethought.
I just can't be evil today...
The enemy of my enemy
Isn't always my friend. Like Arwen, I am a lesbian as well as M2F. The GLB crowd really doesn't like the T crowd, who they seem to resent for drawing negative attention from the straights. Some of the worst of the nasty comments about the (alleged) behavior of the T crowd comes from the GL crowd, who are appalled at the antics of the drag queens. Hey, the GLB crowd doesn't want anybody to dictate their behavior, but are perfectly willing to attempt to dictate other's behavior. And as we see above, some of the T crowd resent being perceived as possibly being gay or lesbian.
I made some mistakes at first, thinking I belonged to both groups, and being very open and honest about myself to them. Turns out, I don't belong to either. Nowadays, the only place I'm open and (reasonably) honest is here. To the world at large I'm the old maid who probably has 23 cats and will die at home alone. Very few even know I'm a lesbian, only one or two that I'm T.
The association of the GLB and the T groups is one of convenience only, and the T crowd is only marginally better off with it than without it. But until the GLB crowd dumps the T crowd as being a political liability of no further use, we might as well take whatever advantage we can of being associated with a larger group.
That's my opinion, anyway. Nobody has to agree with me, or even like me, just don't spit on me in public, okay?
Karen J.
"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
First and foremost...I love cats, so there's something..
...we have in common. More importantly...it remains amazing that even within the "nurturing and accepting" community known as GLBT, there still is so much differentiation and discrimination; as if the transgender experience were limited to one expression. I grow tired from being shoved into a pigeonhole one day and dismissed the next, painted with the same broad brush we claim is being used by the public at large. It remains painful that I am not at a place safe enough to be Andrea at home or with my family. When my own existence as a trans-gendered person is questioned; what is my rationale or justification for feeling that I can call myself transgendered...in this community, it is sad and disappointing. I hate to agree with you one point only, and it's more out of a commonality...it does feel like being spat upon, doesn't it? I should say one last thing...I do agree with you and I like you tremendously, but more than that, I hope that I am demonstrating that I love you and value you as well. Alphabetically your's 'drea
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Possa Dio riccamente vi benedica, tutto il mio amore, Andrea
Love, Andrea Lena
Dear Karen
...I am so sorry. I meant to say that I hate to have to agree, but it's true...it does feel like being spat upon. My intent was to say that it is sad that we have to almost justify ourselves, and that I wanted to show a commonality with you. I fear I have done just the opposite in my haste to reply. You have been so kind and supportive in the past, and in my attempt to identify with what you said; wanting to agree with you, I said exactly the opposite. I owe you an apology, and I hope that the readers will understand that I only meant well, which can be one of the worst motivations for writing. I hope to be a friend to you and repair this horrible damage. Please forgive me. Andrea
Love, Andrea Lena
Just an FYI
Andrea and I have PM'd about the possible misunderstanding of her comments. I sent a PM in part so she could come back and edit or revise her comment to reflect what she intended to say more clearly, if she so desired. Seems as if everybody is having a bad day and taking things the wrong way, myself included. My apologies to Andrea, Penny, and also Nick (for dragging things off course).
KJT
"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
THink nothing of it, Karen
The fact is that I may have committed Hub-suicide by attempting to answer this question as not one person has voted in the positive for my hub.
It started at 50 as they all do and has gone down and down all day.
Your comments here have been something of a revelation, which is why I rewrote it and hopefully have made it more 'GLB' oriented, leaving you good folks out of the argument.
Thanks again for reading.
I don't just look it, I'm totally evil
It would be nice IF...
... some of the GLB contigent did there homework, and knew their history.
You hear with pride about Stonewall, yet what you don't hear about is that the girls(the queens) were the ones that actually fought back against the raid first, and were on the front lines.
Well, guess memories are short, huh?
I'm sorry I jumped
...but I've had a few terrible nights recently. It wasn't early morning here when I wrote my comment above, but that still doesn't excuse me and I apologise if it sounded a bit raw.
I think my original complaint stands, though. I know that in the US things tend to get pigeonholed a lot more than they do in the UK, but we still have it here. If one is going to try and educate the general public, one has to be a little more careful with the wording than, say, on a message board where we all understand what is meant rather than what is implied.
I think the problem is one of appearances. If T gets associated with L, G and B then people are going to assume that L=gay, G=gay, B=gay (sometimes) therefore T must be gay as well. In reality the relationship is orthogonal.
I understand that being part of a larger pressure group means a bigger say, but as some people above have pointed out sometimes even the LGBs dont understand what we are. I wonder if we would have been better off if the link between LGB and T had not been made.
Again, apologies to all for doing some unnecessary stirring.
Penny
From my point of view...
Transgender involves all sorts of gender border crossing. It's not that T is LGB, but that LGB is T in at least one broad sense of the term. :)
At least, that's the way I see it.
Hugs to all,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Yeah, you're right
Of course it does. What kind of state am I in today?
<confused>
I think I'll go and find a dark corner to lie down in.
</confused>
Penny
Tolerance
To simply label anyone who does not agree or has issues with the GLB (little) t community as a homophobe as being ignorant is to ignore the simple fact that a GLB (little) t lifestyle simply isn't everyone's cup of tea. To demand that everyone fall all over themselves and accept us with open arms is to invite the worse sort of Hypocrisy, the sort of hypocrisy we find all too often in GLB (little) t organizations.
Before I go any further, please do not misconstrue what I am saying. If someone attacks a TG, or anyone from the larger GLB (little) t community, then they should be prosecuted within the letter of the law. While drawing and quartering these people may be a little extreme, should it become the preferred method of dealing with people, I'll gladly do the honors.
However, to hate people simply because they do not like the way you live your life, to label them a scum of the earth is to become no different than them. We, of all people, should understand what tolerance really means.
All I can do is ask my brothers and sisters to think before you go about splashing the vile label of bigot, hate monger and homophobe on everyone who does not bow down before you. We are all humans. I believe the best thing we can do is to be as tolerant of others as we would wish them to be of us.
There, I said my piece. You are free to open fire.
Nancy Cole
"You may be what you resolve to be."
T.J. Jackson
The term Transgender was in
The term Transgender was in fact coined by Virginia Prince in the process of setting up the Society for the Second Self, or Tri-ess, an organization for overtly heterosexual cross dressers with wives and SOs. MS. Prince used that term to distinguish "her" kind of people from fetishistic transvestites and drag artists, in large part to help herself and those who fit her ideal to feel better about themselves. She was not pleased when the T/TG term was co-opted by the activists in the GLB/DQ community to draw in TS and heterosexual crossdressers to increase their political base, and try to drum up donations for their social/legal aims.
HRC is the primary nationwide political arm of the GLB movement. It is lead by rich, white, gay males with a token lesbian and token T representative. The actual support to the T component by their organization is honored more in the breech rather than in the fact. When ENDA came up for a vote in the House during the Shrub administration, the greatest objection by congressmen over the bill was over the T part of the LGBT, so under the advise of gay Representative Barney Franks (I have read transcripts of sarcastic speeches about Trans people before and since he was outed), Speaker Pelosi agreed to abandon the T in the language of the Act in an attempt to get something passed. HRC happily supported this move with their lobbyists, and they received quite a black eye from a vocal outpouring from many local groups of GLBT, and lost support from hundreds of them, and faced outspoken criticism.
This time around HRC has been trying to smooth ruffled feathers, but considering that was the third time they backstabbed those of us considered the "T", I do not trust them so far as I might throw them, and that is not very damn far. I might add, I had been a donating supporter of HRC before the Shrub era ENDA, and they have seen not one red cent from me since, nor will they. That is not because, as I said above, the leadership is primarily rich, white, gay men and women, with a token transgender representative, but because they have shown themselves to be untrustworthy.
I prefer to support the Transgender Law Center, who have made strides in legal actions over the human rights of TS people, and have been instrumental in passing laws covering the rights of T people as well as GLBDQ to housing, medical care, and jobs on a state by state basis. Many of these same states have enacted state level hate crime laws, and those were written with the aid of the TLC.
I have been amazed that it is often the T of the GLBT legislation that is the stumbling block, considering we are so few in number. We must really scare the urine out of Congress. They are soooo insecure in their own sexuality that they think we may seduce them and make them feel they are gay. Methinks the congressmen and preachers protest too much!!
TS and TG have become the new "nigger", a minority that is so small and poor it is easy to kick aside and look down upon. Gays, expecially gay men, have been revealed to be more numerous, richer, and more integrated into society than before believed, and they tend to leave them kinda alone for the most part.
The amount of misinformation about T-folk provided by such born again "Christian" organizations such as Focus on Family is astonishing, and their panic technique often includes bathroom issues, child pornography, and "turning their children into sex deviants".
There are many religions that hold similar views, including the Catholics (with their pedophile priests- overcompensating? well not with the ture Poop they have now, he is homophobic), Episcopalians (though they are more liberal than the Catholics and have at least two ordained ministers who are trans), Methodists (hate the sin not the sinner is a favorite platitude that is nothing more than a platitude), Baptists (really homophobic bigots), Mormons (total assholes and bigoted about anything GLB or T while favoring polygamous marriages), and Islam where they will stone you to death for your "deviancy" (but then they bury alive or behead teenage daughters and nieces who want to choose a husband rather than be controlled as a comodity by a father or other male family members, as in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, so what do you expect?)
Religions that push political agendas are still considered tax exempt under current IRS practice, but by the same laws they claim exemption under, should not be so considered because they are actually political action groups. I think legal action to force the IRS to reverse that time honored exemption might make 'em sit up and take notice. They love money far more than they love God so their pocket books would be a great place to grab them by. Bigoted Jerks!!!
As you may assume, I do have strong feeling about this!!! LOL
CaroL
CaroL
Dear Carol - I cannot speak for others, only myself
...I certainly understand and accept your perspective on organized religion, especially in light of the treatment this community has received, both collectively and as individuals who have been mistreated and hurt. Please understand that not all folks of faith, even those of us who call ourselves Christian, believe in nor practice the things you've cited in your comment nor am I implying that you said anything of the sort. Certainly I would not be writing or commenting here if I felt that way. As I said, I cannot speak to the culpability of others, but I am truly sorry for my own part perhaps that the Christian community as a whole has done a terrible job of representing Christ. Please forgive me.
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Possa Dio riccamente vi benedica, tutto il mio amore, Andrea
Love, Andrea Lena
I really don't care
about the politics of the LGBTi or the HRC...I know who I am and I also know that I am not gay, or a lesbian, or a freak, or a pervert, or any other nasty name you may want to call me. I am a male-to-female transsexual person that has always been female ever since I can remember, and I can remember my 3 year old birthday party even today. The only politics I am interested in is the politics of me. Remember one thing Nick B, we are unique individuals, with unique thoughts, feelings, emotions, dreams, and goals. If you want to know how I feel about being who I am, and what I feel about my trans brothers and sisters, read my blog The Times They Are A Changing. We don't need activists today, we need lobbyists to get legislation for transsexual rights. Anybody who sits back and lets somebody else fight for them, needs to understand that the other person is fighting for whatever rights that person feels we need. But if we all got together and ratified a package to send to our elected representatives with a demand (not a request) for the rights we deserve under the United States Constitution, we will get results. These are my views, and they are for my trans community as well.
"With confidence and forbearance, we will have the strength to move forward."
Love & hugs,
Barbara
"If I have to be this girl in me, Then I have the right to be."
"With confidence and forbearance, we will have the strength to move forward."
Love & hugs,
Barbara
"If I have to be this girl in me, Then I have the right to be."
Weeee, another comment
Hi all,
Here I am reading away, waiting for my body to cool down after my shower so I can get ready for court and I read this interesting topic question, and follow on answers and comments. I am struggling with some of this right now in my therapy sessions and have come to conclude the following:
1. I am a female spirit, therefore I am female. It does not matter what my body looks like. It does not matter what others see or say, my spirit is, therefore I am.
2. The terms TG ... and so forth brought me much confusion and labeling, boxing me into a limited world, or should I say, I boxed myself into a corner? I find it better to use the term as a wonderful place to start, but for me, not a place to end. With that said, I will never leave or forget my sisters and brothers I have, I just stopped thinking of myself and my family as anything but male or female. The sheath does not matter. Even though I have not completed my transition, I am a woman, and luckily for me, I am treated as one too. I have been told I am social, open, caring and happy (my smile is infectious). I have had complete strangers (female normally, but at Gold's gym males) defend me without my asking. I have cried and been comforted by children, teenagers, and adults, strangers and friends. I honestly believe most people have a common decency and if not threatened will respond with love and acceptance.
3. I am retired military, and have found that even the current active duty are not embarrassed of me and I have brought them several individuals that were interested in joining. They even laugh now, and stop giving the usual BS approaches as I try to give the applicant the best there is to offer them. They have told me that my approach has actually made them rethink how they recruit and their success record has improved. What this has taught me, stay true to yourself and others honor your true self.
4. I admit, it does help that I am passable, act feminine, and love shoe and cloth shopping (okay I had to put that in ...). Even at the restaurants I am not only welcomed, but usually treated extra special.
Not sure if this makes sense, but I am trying to explain something I cannot quantify, nor do I want to, I want to love and treasure each of us. Even the roughest of diamonds is beautiful in the proper settings.
I love you all.
Kendra
Wel, I Say This About Homophobia
Me,I DON'T put labels on people. labels suck! To me, if you say you are a woman, you're a woman! Whether you are a genetic, or a T. girl does not matter to me. YOU DO! the body is simply the package.
May Your Light Forever Shine
May Your Light Forever Shine
Groups use each other
The truth is that groups will use each other, and while all sorts of dark deeds are done by all sorts of people, the gay pressure group is the largest of the sexual minorities - except in Iran, where it possibly is the transsexual one. So we have all gained from the progress they have made. In Europe things are possibly better than elsewhere but it isn't that long ago someone was hanging minorities from metal posts on meat hooks or pushing them into gas chambers. So, whilst I have legal status today, I'm aware that could be removed by some lunatic fascist.
As long as we have religions and politics - people will always define themselves by pointing out the differences of others, usually negatively. Until human groups become inclusive rather than exclusive, we will always have persecutors and victims.
One day we might transcend it, then we will discover that we were gods in our own right all along.
Angharad
Angharad
There are a number of issues here
1) Being gay is not a choice; it is how the brain is wired,
2) T is part of GLBT only insomuch as Trans-people had to start campaigning somewhere, and the gay community were generally welcoming,
3) There is pressure from some to have the acronym changed to GLB&T, so that it more correctly reflects the fact that Trans does not equal gay,
4) T is not an alternative to G, L and B; T-people can be G, L, B, H or A, etc.,
5) T-people are, as are all sectors of society, a spectrum. If heterosexual, occasional cross-dressers are at one end, and heterosexual trans-women with early convictions of 'wrongness' are at the other, there are many other points in-between,
6) The incidence of (those who identify as) gay and Trans, is probably much the same as that of gay non-Trans people,
7) GLB&T people are not the only ones discriminated against because of difference; it was not so long ago that a prominent Church leader condemned a pregnant woman, whose mother was given the drug Thalidomide in pregnancy, for expecting a child. The Church leader is quoted as having said that "This woman should not be ALLOWED to have a child." Did he think that, with no arms and no legs, the woman might harm her daughter?
Bigotry is alive and well and still thrives on earth. If certain men and women hadn't stood up for right and freedom, and been prepared to lay down their lives, we'd still have legal slavery and be ruled by Nazi Germany.
Susie
I'm not gay, or am I...
I just don't know how I would answer the question of whether or not I'm gay. I spend about 97% of my time in male mode, but my mind never strays from thinking of myself as female. I'm not attracted to men. I am attracted to women. If I transitioned, I suspect I would still be attracted to women, but I could reasonably see that changing. So am I gay? I suppose that depends on how you define my gender, and that is something that requires serious thought every time I have to check an M or F box on a form.
I really wish the larger community of GLBT folks was as welcoming as our Employee Resource Group at 3M. I understand that even the G and the L part of our societal GLBT label don't always associate, to say nothing of G's and L's understanding us T's. But in our employee group, we really do work together for the good of each other. I don't always get what it's like in the gay world. And I'm sure when I show up as Alison on occasion, some of the gay men squirm. I'm sure I make some of the lesbians uncomfortable because I look more feminine than they do. But because the outside world lumps us all together, we really have found it to our advantage to stick together. We had a transgender member in a leading role in securing domestic partner benefits just before I joined. I had a lot of help from a couple of lesbians as we put together workplace transition guidelines and employee training and convinced HR to adopt them this past year. I was really upset about HRC leaving the T out ENDA the last time around, but I do have to admit, their transgender workplace materials are outstanding. Additionally the Corporate Equality Index rating from HRC is a big help as we approach the corporation in working for equality in rights and benefits for all of us - G, L, B, & T. Our struggles together for equality have helped us all to learn a lot about each other. We have all gotten to a comfort level with the other parts of our GLBT label that I suspect many GLBT people never reach. We have also learned about the many straight allies in our company. If only this spirit would spread! If only we would take the time to get to know each other and stand up for each other!