Why We Each Need an Editor
1 We all make mistakes. These include, but are not limited to spelling mistakes, wrong homonyms, noun/verb agreement, word choices, some paragraphs are poorly done and incomplete switching of names without writing, “War and Peace.”
2 Sometimes what we said is not explained enough to be clear. What is obvious to the writer may not clear to the reader.
3 Saying a part of a story in a different way could make the whole story better and more enjoyable to read.
4 We may miss a point.
There may be other reasons.
What I mean is that a second pair of eyes can’t hurt.
Comments
Having been on both sides...
I can only agree. That said, I am likely to occasionally "go it alone"... Something light or silly. That said, there are some quite enjoyable stories on this site, that do well enough without the 2nd set of eyes prior to posting.
Compatibility to me is what is important with an editor.
Can you work well together? We could all use an editor, but do we want to use one?
Angel
"Be Your-Self, So Easy to Say, So Hard to Live!"
We need to stop being so critical about writing
People write because they want to. Authors put a lot of themselves in their stories and poems. If a person wants an editor to help them, thats great. If the author is happy with their work and wants to leave it alone then they should be allowed to do that without people commenting about a lack of editing. I know when I write I want to know if a person enjoyed the story or not. I don't want to hear them compain about a missspelled word. Come on people, stop analysing everything and just enjoy the story.
It reminds me of all those crazy people trying to find god in harry potter. They forgot thats it's just a good story.
Jessica Marie
Red Flag
Yes, there are some people who will nitpick, that's just the way they are. But consider, if you have several readers who felt things needed to be pointed out - a confusing dialog, incorrect repetitive use of your for you're, etc., then they are telling you how they felt about the story. They are saying that they were unable to enjoy it due to the problems with the "mechanics" of the story. And in many cases they are saying they would have found the story much more enjoyable if these things were corrected.
Everybody has seen the paragraph going around the purports to prove that we can read and make sense out of bad spelling, so therefore spelling isn't important. But, honestly, how many readers are going to take time to wade through a whole story written like that?
There has been several discussions in the last several days about hits. They are nice, but they don't tell you anything about how many read the story. It could be that people are starting but can't make their way through so they drop down and leave a message about the mechanics of the story and move on.
So, unless you are writing for yourself (in which case why are you posting it for others to read?), giving some attention to how you write as well as what you write will deliver a product both you and the readers can enjoy.
Yuri!
Yuri!
Yes, but...
I can agree with you on minor mistakes (readable spelling errors, doubling words), however sometimes due to a point-of-view change or a change in tense, the whole story becomes confusing. I have run into stories here and elsewhere that I stopped reading after a page or so just because it was too much work puzzling out the grammar to enjoy the story itself.
Sometimes a full editor isn't what you want. In cases like what you indicated above, all you really want is a proofer. Someone to look over to make sure that blatant mistakes have not been made. They aren't going to tell you how to write or change your story, just let you know if you switched POV in a confusing way or more often or not, switched from past tense to present tense.
In the end, what we write and post is a reflection on ourselves. People will build a mental image of what kind of person they think we are based on our words and how we use them. It seems to me that we would want to present the best appearance in our writing as possible.
Kaho =^.^=
Hugs,
Kaho
http://fox-tales.net/
Hi Kaho, I disagree because the majority of our readers...
...have no trouble reading the majority of stories posted here. The real bad ones filled with mistakes and one long paragraph are the real exceptions. No one enjoys trying to read those.
No, the people that seem to have the most problem enjoying these stories are the more educated and skilled in grammar usage. They have the skills and the real talent to be real editors and thus lose out because they cannot get passed their level of expertise.
I'll quote you to prove the differences from the elite editors mind and the normal everyday readership.
"...however sometimes due to a point-of-view change or a change in tense, the whole story becomes confusing. I have run into stories here and elsewhere that I stopped reading after a page or so just because it was too much work puzzling out the grammar to enjoy the story itself."
You see Kaho, most of us don't let that bother us as much as it bothers you and others, especially to the point of not reading more of the story because of grammar usage.
I guess it is the high price you have to pay for all of that education and devotion to correct grammar usage. Tis a pity really, but we all have our prices to pay no matter what level we achieve to strive for.
I would think that if a story got your attention that you just might offer your services to the needy author. If not then you are missing many fine stories just because you can't get passed your use of proper grammar requirement. Past tense, future tense, all well and good, but still many a good author can mix them up from time to time.
And as for judging a person by what words they use, now that's just a bunch of elitist crapola!
Um, just in my humble opinion of course.
One story that we can agree on that is superb is "Peaches" by Angela Rash and Amelia R. Here is the link if you want to read a story that is up to your requirements.
http://bigclosetr.us/topshelf/node/558#comment-68633
Huggles Kaho
"Be Your-Self, So Easy to Say, So Hard to Live!"
>> one long paragraph
I suspect that some of those are due to the "Input format" flags being set, or reset, incorrectly, which happens from time to time in the general course of site maintenance. I've had this happen to me, so I know it happens, and can be annoying, but for a first-time author the problem my be daunting, especially if the story was typed using the editor box and tools supplied by Big Closet.
Puddin'
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Hi Puddintane, thank goodness for the edit button!
I write my stories with MSW and then copy and paste them into editor box. Sometimes the spacing between paragraphs does get messed up, but I then go back in and just add another space between paragraphs. Fixed the problem right off.
I think when you see the preview you should make the changes before you post or if you do post it as is, you can always hit the edit button, fix it and then re-post.
Huggles Puddintane
PS, I never use the WYSIWYG editor.
"Be Your-Self, So Easy to Say, So Hard to Live!"
I type in BBEdit, a plain text editor...
...and tag the story in HTML before posting, because that way I *know* what it's going to look like, but that's just me.
Puddin'
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Heh!
I type in a full service editor, but then I copy and paste into BBEdit to do the HTML. The full service editor helps me with proofing but there's nothing like having a good plain text editor for preparing code -- and HTML is code. :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Music
How many people enjoy music when it's badly played or sung by a musician who can't quite hit the right notes? If one is tone deaf, I suppose it's possible to enjoy the beat alone, but there are some people who can't stay on beat.
There are many people for whom the screech of fingernails on a blackboard is "music" to their ears, but not most of us.
This isn't a matter of "training" or musical "literacy," but the ability to hear and understand the conventions of music.
For most of us, both music and literacy are hardwired by culture and early experience into our brains, as integral to our perception as the ability to distinguish colours and assemble a matching outfit, the knack of knowing that plaids and stripes don't usually mix well unless one is a fashionista whose opinion is eagerly sought after by the editors of Vogue and Vanity Fair, or that wearing white shoes before Easter or after Labour Day is a mortal sin, at least in the Bible Belt, with the golf course and the tennis court being the only notable exceptions.
That doesn't mean that even good writers can't learn to be better writers, or that bad spelling and grammar is a birth defect, because people can learn, and editors can help to make learning easier, because an editor ought to be one's first and most perceptive audience. If an editor doesn't understand and sympathise with what an author is trying to say, they're fairly unlikely to be of much help, but a good editor can make a story more of what it ought to be, not a pale imitation of the editor's own writing. Of the two tasks, editing is probably the harder, because the balance between nurturance and correction is a delicate one.
Puddin'
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Any word you have to hunt for in a thesaurus is the wrong word. There are no exceptions to this rule.
--- Stephen King
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
The need for editing/proofing
Sometimes it is difficult to separate the two. I even try to proof my blog replies and still miss things, e.g., 'passed' instead of 'past' (see above). I want to present my best product and in my first four attempts of posting on this site (not sight) I failed. I really appreciated the efforts of others to point out and help me correct my misteaks, er, mistakes - especially Holly. Another pair of competent eyes is really appreciated.
:) Portia
Portia
nobody has to
But it cain't hurt.
This writing thing is a very personal exercise, fraught with emotional hot buttons and potential pain. Well at least from those that explore personal worlds. Playing with fantasies may not cause the same whirlpool, but it still is not easy. Having wrestled with the idea of letting someone else meddle with my deathless prose it comes down perhaps to a degree of confidence. At first it's all very tentative and yes, personal and the idea of someone else messing about with your thoughts or ideas is not exactly enticing. I mean how can someone else... get it? Yet, once you have done it a few times you realise perhaps that you aint poifict and that just maybe that phrase that seemed perfect and of vast importance did not in fact say what you meant it to. Being too close is hardly unique in this instance.
Nitpicking is not the point and is just er, pointless and perhaps a pinch pathetic... or even rude. Gross sloppiness or a lack of care is something else. If the author can't be bothered, why should anyone else care. Here is perhaps where asking for help is desirable.
The other side is when a degree of skill or style and yes, confidence is reached and the author knows they have a good idea, can put it down pretty well and keep the feel and emotion... but it still, might be better.
THAT is where a good editor comes in. Someone that will read it and perhaps pick up the few proofy type errors that we will all make. But beyond that will look at what is not clear, what is not needed or is maybe not there at all. A person that will see those things that the author may mentally read, but are not in fact part of the 'script'. Such an editor can improve a story without changing it and it is always up to the author to stand up for their work. They have the final say, always. Yet credit where it is due.
Like I said, no one has to, some perhaps for many reasons never will. That's fine. For those that seek to be better or grow it is an option to look at. Another's view, with mutual trust and respect can make a difference. Each to their own way and in their own time, long may it be so.
Kristina
Kristina, you are right on with your comments!
I agree with you.
Angel
"Be Your-Self, So Easy to Say, So Hard to Live!"
Telling stories...
The story is central to any author's contribution, but is by no means all there is.
If sentences are badly formed, words are misspelled, and words are run together into jumbled paragraphs containing the thoughts and actions of many characters, the story not only *needs* an editor, but an author who refuses such help is merely foisting the job of editing -- deciphering the raw manuscript and wrestling it into coherence -- onto every reader and without so much as an apology.
If one gives someone a gift, is it polite to give them a basket of broken parts and wires and then say, "Look, here's your new cellphone! Aren't you grateful?"
Not everyone appreciates the challenge of trying to figure out who's speaking, what this or that strange word means, and where the plot went.
When you hand someone a doughnut, it's nice if it doesn't have a bite taken out of it, and the frosting isn't sprinkled with bits of sand.
Cheers,
Puddin'
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And then there is that other thing: when you think you are reading proof, whereas you are merely reading your own mind; your statement of the thing is full of holes & vacancies but you don't know it, because you are filling them from your mind as you go along. Sometimes--but not often enough--the printer's proof-reader saves you--& offends you--with this cold sign in the margin: (?) & you search the passage & find that the insulter is right--it doesn't say what you thought it did: the gas-fixtures are there, but you didn't light the jets.
--- Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens)
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
What's an Editor?
I've never had an editor.
When I first started writing stories, I felt too embarrassed to ask for help. I just tried to learn on my own and slowly improve with practice. I didn't post a lot of my early stories.
Later on, it seemed like everyone was too busy to edit. I didn't want to impose on anyone, especially as my stories got longer.
Now my stories keep getting longer and more involved. My plots tend to twist and turn out of control. It would be nice to have an editor to help with that sort of thing. I'm still hesitant to seek help though. I hear people recommend getting an editor but I also hear that everyone is very busy with this or that, or they're already editing for someone else.
I suppose even a good editor might not necessarily be a good match for my writing style or the type of stories that I want to write. That's another hurdle.
So if I was willing, how could I find a good editor? I don't want to ask for volunteers. That seems too random. I'm fussy about the quality of my babies.
- Terry the editorless
Asking for help
Is not a bad thing.
Even when someone replies, it doesn't mean that you have to accept help from all of them--or any of them.
Editors are there to give you advice about grammar, punctuation, loose ends that sort of thing, but at no time are you required to accept their suggestions.
In my humble opinion, an editor can be good for some and not for others--however good they may actually be. There are a lot of good ones out there, but some want to impose a "what I would do", which may not fit with your style.
In that particular instance, you should realise that there is probably something that doesn't fit where they have highlighted and perhaps you should try and rewrite in your style, perhaps in a compromise to what was suggested.
Editors are not there to write the story for you and at no time should the good of the story be jeopardised by what they say. The story is yours and some have a particular way they like to impart that to their readers, which editors may not be able to replicate within their suggestions.
If nothing else, an editor can help you stop making mistakes you may never even know you were making and even if you work from a selection of editors, they can often help one grow in a literary sense.
Hope this helps
Lady E
Terrynaut - Don't Ya Just Hate It
I can understand Angel being upset because Karen got a little pushy. What I don't understand is Angel being surprised. Hasn't she read any of Karen's stories?
Terry -- You are a talented storyteller. It would be horrible to see that talent fouled by some hack editor.
On the other hand, some people just can't help themselves. They see a writer with your talent and want to jump right in. For instance, your story The Friend Shop is a point in case.
I love the title. How could anyone read that title and not want to give the story a try? The story is absolutely darling. Someone said it is Heather Rose-ish, and I agree totally -- and that's a good thing.
Not that you asked for editing, but I could imagine some Buttinski telling you that your story would have been much better had you picked a point of view character and stuck with him (or her?). Had you allowed the reader to identify with either the clerk or the customer the reader would enjoy the experience much more. By jumping back and forth between the two you never allow the reader to be comfortable. A real jerk might tell you to imagine a camera on the shoulder of one of your characters and keep that camera there throughout the story -- or at lest until a break in the story, like at a chapter or scene change.
Someone with no regard for your feelings might also criticize you for placing the verb before the noun in the attribution. While in many instances this makes no real difference, it can become quite unhandy -- like when you say "mused the clerk" and "wailed the man". To avoif these kind of awkward phrases you might adopt a noun before verb rule.
Also on the topic of attributions you should stick to verbs that are actual forms of speaking. Attributions such as "encouraged", "smiled", "sympathized", and "mused" are not forms of actual speech. Things like cried, wailed, yelled, muttered, etc. are forms of speaking.
Angel is right in that your story is enjoyable despite the above. If I were to edit for you I would tell you that "despite" is a huge word -- but I'm not editing for you, so I won't say a word.
By the way, I have told authors "my way or the highway" after reaching a point of utter frustration. My first rule is to try to understand the author's intent and help them put that across. When I realize the authors intent is to screw with me I become belligerent. I wonder if that's what happened between Angel and Karen?
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
>> forms of actual speech...
I seem to recall that as being one of my pet peeves:
"Said Bookisms are boring," she snarled.
http://www.bigclosetr.us/topshelf/blog-entry/8552/said-booki...
Puddin'
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Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Thumb rules
Don't use any attribution at all if the speaker is clear.
The speaker is most likely not clear if you have gone three or more speeches without an attribution. As an exercise, you can write a whole scene with no attributions at all but then to make it really work, you need to leave out descriptions, too. It's interesting but it's a stunt, like steering a bicycle with your knees.
Non-standard attributions, anything other than Tom said, Susie asked, should never be more than about a fifth of the total. This is variable but as a rule of thumb, it has meaning.
Tom said, "Feh." is natural order. "Feh," Tom said is first inversion. "Feh," said Tom is second inversion. Said Tom, "Feh," is third inversion. Using nothing but attributions in natural order will sound stilted. All are grammatically correct in English. Overusing any of them is going to sound staged or static. Avoiding any of them except the third inversion is a matter of style. The third inversion is usually used for humorous effect, only.
Avoid mentioned, noted, stated, observed unless used for humorous effect -- because that's what effect they have 98 times out of 100. "You're bleeding from your neck," the doctor noted. "I do that when I get stabbed there," Ed mentioned. "You should probably stop that," the doctor observed. "I'll continue to do my best," Ed stated.
I can probably think of others but the laundry is making noises. :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Hi Angela, I agree withy you 100% and that is amazing isn't it?.
Giggle, giggle...
As far as Karen went, her personality, her stories, and the way she lives her life are all clues as to how she would edit. I plead my ignorance at the time. I was a newbie back then! LOL...
Newbies are the most vulnerable writers on the face of the earth and a good editor can help them a ton. A bad editor almost always makes them give up writing all together. We've seen that time after time including those that get reamed by others in the comments section for their stories.
I agree with you on this VERY IMPORTANT POINT and I quote.
"By the way, I have told authors "my way or the highway" after reaching a point of utter frustration. My first rule is to try to understand the author's intent and help them put that across. When I realize the authors intent is to screw with me I become belligerent."
Some writers treat editors badly and just don't agree with them or ignore their advice. To them I say, 'LEAVE THE EDITORS ALONE!' They don't want an editor, let them just use a proofer and be done with it!
There is a type of editor I'll never use and that is one that admits to being so hung up and proper grammar usage it prevents them from reading very good stories because there are too many grammar mistakes in them no matter how trivial they are. How can a person edit a story if they won't even read it first? GEEZE!
I just received an email and I sure did get my butt reamed out (giggle, giggle) for treating Kaho badly. That was not my intention, my intention was to try and describe my experiences with different types of editors not Kaho, I've never used Kaho and don't even know her. It is just I can't believe she is so grammar sensitive she'll ditch a story if she has to work a little to read it. WE ARE NOT PERFECT! Who has very good grammar usage here? Um, maybe 10% of all the authors here? So 90% of our writers are not worth reading because of our poor grammar usage? Yes I am among that 90% for sure!
I took that as an insult and anj elitist statement for sure.
The other part I objected to was when Kaho stated she judges people and uses their word usage as a direct influence of a first impression on the person. GEEZE, what a way to judge someone you've never met or had the privilege to chat with.
Seems a bit non-human and elitist to me! I respect the well educated if they don't use it against we less fortunate ones. We are all human beings and none of us are any superior beings than the rest as a whole. We all help each other here in our own ways and to the best of our given abilities. We do this freely and most of us do it in a heartfelt way.
I thank Kaho for offering her services as an editor to others. That was a nice thing to do. I only abjected to a few of her comments because to me they read as elitist attitudes. If I am wrong I apologize, but that is how I read her statements in her posted reply.
Most of my verb age was describing different editors styles I have personally dealt with in the past, the positive and the negative ones. I hope this clears up any misunderstanding and misinterpretations of what I wrote in the comments section for this thread.
Oh, and nope I'm never leaving again, I'm here to stay, this is my home and birthplace after all. You'll just have to put up with a naughty angel at times, I can't change my stripes, but I won't be silenced either. Giggle, giggle.
I can disagree with you and still respect you! I do respect the well educated even if I don't agree with your methods or beliefs. You worked very hard to achieve the level of skill you have. That should be respected and I do respect that.
Huggles All
Angel
PS. Angela, I hope you don't mind me using your story "Peaches" when I recommended it as being a story Kaho could really enjoy. I wasn't being sarcastic as you well know. I love that story and think it is one of the best ever written and posted here.
(Please excuse any grammer mistakes I have made in this post)
"Be Your-Self, So Easy to Say, So Hard to Live!"
Peaches
When I think of Peaches I can't help but think of the hours spent with Amelia wrestling our way to completion -- and then I smile.
No, I don't mind a bit.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Thanks for the Proofing
I should say that I've had several people help with proofreading, and two people here did help me a little with The Magic of Love.
I'd forgotten that when I posted in the wee hours of the morning.
So perhaps I should say that I've never had anyone do any major editing for me.
I'm sorry.
- Terry
Finding a good editor...
Is NOT necessarily easy. Some folks will come hunting you, offering to edit. (Half, at least, of those are mostly looking for an early read of your story, though they may be able to provide proofing duties or even be good editors.)
IF, you want to find one... I'd suggest several things: 1) Find names of people that HAVE edited for others. 2) read stories they have "edited". 3) Remember the author has the final word... But, if the editor isn't happy with the results it's unlikely that she or he will allow their name to be associated with it. 4) Do you LIKE the stories - not necessarily what they are about, but how they hang together.
Ask someone if they'd be willing to edit a story for you. If they have time, they'll tell you (well, every one I've asked anyway.... And I do as well). If they have the time, I might also suggest you ask them to sample edit one of your pieces. Before they start, make sure they understand what you're looking for in an editor... Editors have styles of editing. Some styles will not mesh with how you write (or even personalites clash). I don't know about others, but I'm certainly not offended by authors that don't like my style editing. To address Angela's point - about authors that seem to "fight" with editors... If you ask someone to edit for you, expect suggetions. If you ignore MOST of them... Something's not good here. Think about why. But that's way behond what you asked...
There are a LOT of people that frequent the site. Several do provide very good editing services (I've taken ruthless advantage of a few... And benefited a lot.)... Just ask. All of the ones I've asked have been very gracious...
As to Angel's comment - yes use of an editor WILL slow you down... And, you'll be frustrated. (I speak from experience here.) For some reason, it's easier to get all the editing done before posting anything, if you want to avoid the frustration of "I've written it, and now have to wait to post..." LOL
Good Luck. Try an editor. If it doesn't work out, try another. But, always remember it's YOUR story (at least here anyway) not the editor's.
Annette
I don't kneed no frigen edditer
Everything I right is perfect and all my ideas are perfect and none of my sentences run on and on andon and I never mispel anthing or put comas, where they don't belong and periods are a waist of time which is why I have five editors, Arecee
Five editors?
Have you five 'eads then? No wonder you write such fascinating stuff. :)
Not sure it's a good idea to have more than one editor at a time. I'm sure they'd rarely agree thus causing you great distress and confusion as you try to decide which one to obey.
I feel a bit hypocritical on this editing lark. I've proofed/edited for a few people but all of my own stuff has been edited mostly by me alone. It probably shows.
Geoff
Different editors
I use different editors for different stories. Some just proof and others give me ideas as to how I should change some parts of the story, which I do, or don't depending on my mood, but after reading some of my older stuff, I know why I have things edited. I found that I write then edit a story two or three times before I send it to my editor which is then edited for gramatical errors.When I first started posting on FM some of my stories were edited to the queen's english which freaked me out. It changed the feel of the story I was trying to convey, so I asked my editor to please not change my crude American wording. When I came over to BC, Sephrena was my first editor, then Samantha and Karen, and then Holly on all my series. Angela edited my short stories for me and recommended changes in the story line which improved the story. The only story I didn't have edited was Little men Big women and only because I've felt more confident in my work. But enough, I have to get back to Twisted or I'll never finish writing it, Arecee
My 25 cents worth
As a Reader, I think that each story should be proofed. I am sad when the good efforts of the author are spoiled, in my view, by typo kinds of errors. These are mostly the ooops kind: spelling, missed names, time or tense. I can also agree that an editor is not always needed. I write too, technical teaching materials, and I always welcome the input of my coworkers. I may not agree, but I value their opinion.
Wendy Marie
Wendy Marie