You Are What You Read?

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>> Williams, who created great women, real women.

Puddintane's picture

Interestingly enough, one of his "real women" was Blanche DuBois, in Streetcar Named Desire, who was written as a drag queen (or perhaps a transsexual, with modern understanding) but was changed for the play (and the movie) because she was too "controversial." Gay men write all the very best women.

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Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

Many women...

Puddintane's picture

...tend to think that men are "just like women," only strangely uptight about it.

This is very lucky for men, most of whom would otherwise never get laid.

I enjoy romance novels, for example, for just that reason, because there's a vast reservoir out there of perfectly great escapist lesbian literature masquerading as heterosexual, but with *really* stone butch leading "men."

I disagree, however, about men's characterisation of women, most of which is laughably two-dimensional and shallow. Every women I know thinks that Molly Bloom's last soliloquy in Joyce's Ulysses is fatuous masculine self-delusion and inadvertently hilarious, whereas many men think it's sexy, so titillating that those very lines got the book banned in Boston.

Cheers,

Puddin'
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"...and the sea the sea crimson sometimes like fire and the glorious sunsets and the figtrees in the Alameda gardens yes and all the queer little streets and pink and blue and yellow houses and the rosegardens and the jessamine and geraniums and cactuses and Gibraltar as a girl where I was a Flower of the mountain yes when I put the rose in my hair like the Andalusian girls used or shall I wear a red yes and how he kissed me under the Moorish wall and I thought well as well him as another and then I asked him with my eyes to ask again yes and then he asked me would I yes to say yes my mountain flower and first I put my arms around him yes and drew him down to me so he could feel my breasts all perfume yes and his heart was going like mad and yes I said yes I will Yes."

It's not for nothing that Ulysses is often seen as a "seminal" literary work. Putz.

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Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

Interrrresting

Many women tend to think that men are "just like women," only strangely uptight about it.

This is very lucky for men, most of whom would otherwise never get laid.

That's an interesting thought. I've heard of it before, but never took it seriously. If that is the prevailing female opinion then it would explain much, but I can't believe that that attitude is all that common. From my experience, women assume that men don't think the same way, the shaking the head, looking towards the ceiling and crying "Men!" thing. The position you describe strikes me as severely feminist/anti-male. It seems to imply that women are the thinking standard and that unfeminine men are basically crippled emotionally -- or worse. The corresponding male point of view might be that women are being purposefully illogical.

Still, I think you could be on to something. Could it be that some of this inability to portray basic, raw, male thoughts effectively has its roots in feminist culture? In the past it was taken for granted that men and women were completely different creatures. Feminism is naturally opposed to that point of view. It's not just feminists, of course. Men have become steadily less "male" as society has blurred the roles, and so there are fewer examples around.

On the other hand, I understand that the Gor series was as popular with women as it was with men, so maybe it's a woman's fear to express her deepest desires that's involved -- at least in public. ;)

Aardvark

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

Feminism

erin's picture

The quote referenced "many" not "most" women, so, no it's not a prevailing attitude. Even little boys and little girls mostly understand that male and female thought processes are different. :)

On another thought, the "feminism" you refer to doesn't match much of my experience of the subject. :) Really, it sounds like a cartoon of feminism. All of the real feminists I know understand that there is a difference between men and women and the only real thing that makes them "feminist" is the desire to have fewer legal and social obstacles to the advancement of women.

The strident anti-male caricature of feminism I sometimes see referenced in some media DOES exist; it's just not the majority of the movement. Like the liberal caricature of conservatism and vice versa, there is truth there but larger truths are being ignored. The strident minority, like some of the wild-eyed types who call themselves Christian, gets the attention while damaging the image of the larger and more sensible majority. And most women are feminist to one degree or another, just as most men are not. How could anyone really expect it to be otherwise?

Let the extremists shout at one another, people with more moderate views can usually deal well enough together, despite some rather fundamental disagreements -- like how the toilet seat should be left. :)

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

>> the shaking the head...

Puddintane's picture

...the shaking the head, looking towards the ceiling and crying "Men!" thing.

Well, that's when fantasy meets reality. It can be jarring at times.

If you read almost any woman's romance novel (and there are men's romance novels -- they're called "Westerns" or "Action Adventure") you find a deeply-conflicted hero, torn between his inexpressible desire for the female protagonist and his esssential insecurity, which leads him to reject her at first, pushing her away, even trying to kidnap and hold her for ransom, eventually won over by her plucky charm, her cheery disposition, and her steadfast courage in the face of obstacles. In the end, the Beast is always "tamed" by Beauty, and she is able to retain her autonomy, even in the face of his power.

Most women, I think, fear being overwhelmed by men, and the romance novel allows them to regain their control, to srike a balance between active passion and inactive surrender, between subjectivity and mere object.

The Lady of Shalotte, we understand, dies in the end, consumed by love when she ventures forth from her moated tower in search of Lancelot, the perfect knight.

Even really *good* romances, like Byatt's Possession, which draws directly on the Lady of Shalotte, and has a "happy ending," is littered with cautionary tales of women who are consumed by men, their creativity stifled, and their inner spirit stifled.

Cheers,

Puddin'
------------------
Out flew the web and floated wide-
The mirror crack'd from side to side;
"The curse is come upon me," cried
The Lady of Shalott.
--- Alfred, Lord Tennyson, The Lady of Shalott

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Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

Romance Westerns?

So, Westerns are about the struggle between a man's insecurities and his desire for a female protagonist? *cough!* *cough!* That reminds me of Jack Nicholson's character's answer in a movie. A woman who enthused over her favorite author's portrayal of women in his romance novels and practically demanded to know his special insight. Irritated, Nicholson finally answered, "I take a man, and remove all reason and accountability," utterly destroying her world.

Everyone knows, of course, that a Western is all about a man doing manly things. Through his actions, he wins the heart of the heroine, who finds that she is secure enough in his masculine presence to be all woman. ;) Naturally, she's a strong woman in her own right, 'cause they don't make 'em weak in the West.

"Most women, I think, fear being overwhelmed by men, and the romance novel allows them to regain their control, to srike a balance between active passion and inactive surrender, between subjectivity and mere object."

I'd say that's pretty good insight. Women like being women. They like being pretty and like being with man who make them feel like women. They don't want to be overwhelmed by men, but they don't want to be underwhelmed by them, either.

Aardvark

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

You left off a couple of phrases, Aardvark

"Through his actions, he* wins the heart of the heroine, (with whom he has spent maybe 20-30 minutes spread out over several days or weeks, half of which she may have spent actively disliking him ), who finds that she is secure enough in his masculine presence to be all woman."

*( The western hero )

Words in parentheses are mine. And yes, I do read and enjoy, many westerns.

One of the most difficult things to give away is kindness.
It usually comes back to you.

Holly

One of the most difficult things to give away is kindness.
It usually comes back to you.

Holly

Western Romances

That's an interesting perspective on it, and, thinking about it, I agree with you: that describes Western romances well.

I think it's taken as a given that the typical romance novel is designed to appeal to women. Not only is it told from the woman's POV, it is also, I believe, tailored to a woman's desires and needs. Could it be that a Western romance, while somewhat similar in form to a standard romance novel, isn't *quite* the same story? It's not so much that it's told from the man's POV, its focus is more on his needs and desires, not so much hers.

Hm.

Regards,

Aardvark

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

Romance westerns...

Puddintane's picture

Both men's and women's romance explore what each sex fears, for most men, physical defeat, for most women, loss (or absence) of love and intimate relationships.

By and large, although men enjoy *reading* about fisticuffs and danger, few of them are nutty enough to want to walk into a bar and pick a fight, any more than women want to be kidnapped by pirates and rescued by a doltish hunk with shoulders out to *here*.

Westerns don't devote a lot of space to "love" because most men think they *deserve* it, or can *win* it, if only they're manly enough. Most spend remarkably little time nurturing love, once married at least, since that's obviously a woman's job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SclQZ4W2VZ0

The video content was edited for network TV and was never remade for cable. Too bad. The film that hit the floor was the best of the session.

Katy Perry's take is also good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6q45XgnfZ0

And then there's Loudon Wainwright:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9uC5dAbXLw

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Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

Western Fears?

Both men's and women's romance explore what each sex fears, for most men, physical defeat, for most women, loss (or absence) of love and intimate relationships.

Isn't that like watching a thriller because one fears boredom? :)

By and large, although men enjoy *reading* about fisticuffs and danger, few of them are nutty enough to want to walk into a bar and pick a fight, any more than women want to be kidnapped by pirates and rescued by a doltish hunk with shoulders out to *here*.

True enough for the men and fisticuffs. Only met one guy who enjoyed starting fights, a Brit in an English pub in Munich, and he only did it when he was stinking drunk. I remember him in particular because the girl I sat next to warned me about him. Unfortunately, the seating was limited and I was sitting closest to him. Much of the evening was spent with one eye on him instead of the English girl. He was quiet for the longest time, then suddenly swept all the drinks off the table. The bartender, who'd warned him earlier to mind his manners, called the "White Mice" (The Munich Police, who wore white coats) on him.

I've only seen one punch thrown in a bar. That was in Lake Worth, Fla, when the bartender and owner, who was a weight lifter and his own bouncer, warned a drunk to go outside because he was looking sick. The drunk didn't heed his advice and threw up on the floor. The bartender came around the bar and popped him in the mouth.

I think bar fights are pretty much an urban legend. They only seem to happen in cowboy movies. Anyone who hits someone in a public place is in danger of going to jail, and a fist can cause some massive damage -- even to the fist itself if it connects with a tooth. I can't imagine why anyone would go looking for a fist fight.

However, to comment on your second point, I have met women, including my Chinese ex-gf, who did yearn for a strong man to "force" her to his will. I don't think it's an uncommon fantasy, the caveat being that, the woman would like very much to choose the man to do it. :)

Westerns don't devote a lot of space to "love" because most men think they *deserve* it, or can *win* it, if only they're manly enough.

I think you're yanking my chain. :) Getting back to Westerns, most would say that the male heroes in them act "manly." The Western hero is brave, stalwart, and honorable. He does what his code of ethics tells him to do. When the girl says "yes," mainly because she comes to appreciate his character, the girl is a fortuitous bonus that comes from doing the right thing, not the winnings or the payment.

It's definitely true that Western romances are written from a male perspective.

Aren't the differences between the sexes fascinating? :)

The vids are cute. I like another version of the Loudon Wainwright "classic," better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBUdxLsS5g4&feature=related

Aardvark

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

I think my use of the term "romance"...

Puddintane's picture

...may have been misleading to some. The classic Western, although a fairly typical "men's action adventure story," is *also* a romance from a peculiarly male perspective, very uninvolved with actual emotions -- other, of course, than anger, loyalty, courage, nobility (or the lack of it), pride (and the complementary admiration of others), and so on -- not what a women would call romance in most cases, but none-the-less reflecting a romantic view of the world as a simple place in which solutions are not only possible but desirable.

I agree that the "girl" is a bonus, and optional in that the main character may, in the end, demonstrate his manly independence by moseying on down to Texas, or wherever. But the admiration of the girl, or someone like her, is essential.

In the classic Western film, Shane, produced by Paramount in the early Fifties, the "girl" is married, so most of her lines are spoken by her young son, but it's quite clear that Shane is drawn to the wife of his friend, Joe, and that this feeling is reciprocated but smoldering beneath the surface. This fact is made plain, as others throughout the film, by the boy, who says, as Shane rides out of town, "Mother wants you. I know she does. Shane! Shane! Come back!"

In the meantime, Shane has had a fight with his friend Joe, to save his life of course, but the hidden meaning is that Shane is the better man and could have *had* Marian, Joe's wife, if he'd wanted her, or if his strict moral code, the "Code of the West," allowed him to stoop so low.

The film is amazingly subtle, and the romance is firmly in its "proper place," but it drives the plot entirely. The "hired guns" and killings are just the background upon which a man's ethical dilemma is displayed. Shane wanted to give up violence, to "unman" himself, and all the traditional rewards were spread before him, a willing woman, even the love of her child, who idolised Shane even as he held his own father in moderate contempt. In the end, Shane becomes *worthy* of her love by riding away from all of them, thereby demonstrating his nobility of character and ultimate "manliness."

Cheers,

Puddin'
-------------------------
There's no living with a killing. There's no goin' back from one. Right or wrong, it's a brand... a brand sticks. There's no goin' back. Now you run on home to your mother and tell her... tell her everything's alright. And there aren't any more guns in the valley.
--- Shane

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Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

Western Romance

erin's picture

There are actual Western Romances, that is Romances set in the Old West, written by women usually with female main characters. I wrote one myself called "The Kid From Liberty." (unpublished). Most of this sub-genre is recognizably Romance in the main genre sense with the Western-ness either simply window dressing or sometimes farce.

I tried to do something a little different. The story was a typical male Western but told from the viewpoint of the girl who was the focal point of the struggle. It did a lot of lampshading of Romance and Western tropes. There was a reckless young gunfighter -- who had bad hygiene. A stalwart sheriff -- who didn't like horses. A beautiful young man dying of tuberculosis -- who was the girl's p.i.t.a older brother. :)

This was back in the days of typewriters, so it does not exist on disk anywhere. Someday, I may dig it out and type it into a computer. :)

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

The lists

Well, the Jezebel list was compiled as a response to the Esquire one, so that explains the lack of overlap, and the "Men's" list is really heavy on North American males of European descent, which is why it deserved a response, but of course they were aiming at their own market.

Jezebel managed to get some of the "lost oldies" though (like Lessing! and Cather!!), but also managed to restate some things that I think need to be lost (Frankenstein, the Good Earth). But the other list has some I'd like to forget too: does anyone really need to read Confederacy of Dunces? Why?

Aren't both list very heavy on things from the '70s and '80s though (the Men's less maybe)? I guess that is the amount of time it takes to become classic and not be dated yet, and 'Men' have shorter periods of relevancy in general.

Now I need to head to the bookstore instead of going Christmas shopping.

Joy; Jan

does anyone really need to read Confederacy of Dunces? Why?

Puddintane's picture

I haven't read it, but the "fart" comment in the "article" text pretty much ensured that it's on the large list of things I rather have a root canal than read.

Frankenstein, on the other hand, is amongst the first SF/F novels ever written by a woman, and arguably the first transsexual novel as well, since Victor Frankenstein's real sin was to attempt to wrest a woman's power to bring forth new life away from her using the sterile tools of science, but to so distance himself from his monstrous "child" that he refuses to even name him, refuses the mother's love and care which might have saved him.

It's very telling, and what makes this book a "woman's story," that the "monster" falls into deep and suicidal depression at the end of the story and flees into the wasteland, rather than conveniently explode into blazing gobbets of flesh, as is the preferred male model for resolution in these affairs.

There's a vast industry and literary legacy grown up from Mary Shelley's creation, and it never hurts for women to be reminded of it from time to time.

Cheers,

Puddin'
------------------
The agony of my feelings allowed me no respite...
--- Mary Shelley, Frankenstein, spoken by Frankenstein's Monster

I was benevolent; my soul glowed with love and humanity; but am I not alone, miserably alone?
--- Mary Shelley, Frankenstein, spoken by Frankenstein's Monster

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Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

Mary, Mary

erin's picture

Mary Shelley's mom, Mary Wollstonecraft had one of her books on one of the lists, too. :)

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

and I thought ...

... that only the 2 Amis (Martin and Kingsley) were parent child inclusions. I hadn't noticed the two Marys. I've only read Kingsley's hilarious 'Lucky Jim' but it's very English and may not suit American tastes. Come to think of it, I found it funny and that section of English culture is as unfamiliar to me as it must be to most Americans, so perhaps I'm wrong.

Geoff

>> Mary Wollstonecraft...

Puddintane's picture

That was one of the ones I'd read, of course, plus her daughter's book.

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Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

science phobia

Yes, yes and it was 'the first to recognize science phobia' and all that (like there were never Luddites) but other than identifying the origin of the Halloween costume, there really isn't much there there it seems to me. And, in spite what I think MS thinks, ugly isn't the same as evil; I think it is a stretch to find feminism in that book too; it was bad theology, not poor social discourse. The rest can be found said better elsewhere - I just don't like it. :(

You are what you read then I'm a sheltered person

In the mens category I only read Tom sawyer
In the womens category I've read eleven of them.
I guess the other things I have read are insignificant to my gender. I like reading Re book. I read the "Mad Woman within" I used it for my research in college. I discovered I could relate to a lot of what the writer was saying. I used it to referrence research I wrote on Road Rage and Women.
I did a one hour seminar on my research paper. My front row listeners consised ofeveral very die hard womens libbers and man hating lesbians. When Iwas done with my presentation the women in the front row congratulated me on not being biased and bashing women drivers.
So no matter what lists are out, my gender is defined by me and how I feel when presenting it.

Jill Micayla
May you have a wonderful today and a better tomorrow

Jill Micayla
Be kinder than necessary,Because everyone you meet
Is fighting some kind of battle.

Books

I think I've read 9 from each list. These are weak memories, like, I could be wrong, but I think 5 from the wimyn's list and 4 from the men's were read for school, almost all for high school.

Renee M.

Hugs and Bright Blessings,
Renee

I dunno....

But, I've read 9 on the woman's list and 5 on the men's list... Guess that means' I'm neither. That's it, I'm an IT. *sighs*

3 of the books on the Men's list, and 3 on the women's list were required reading in High School - so I guess my voluntary list drops to 6 & 2 - which is even worse... Call me illiterate. *sighs*

Annette

P.S. I do admit to RECOGNIZING quite a number of titles/authors on BOTH lists.

Do Movies Count?

If they do then I've seen six male movies five female and one from both.I've also read two from both.

Both lists are very "modern," only one per author and decidely American. Examples that are not on either lists include:

One Day in the Life of Ivan Devonsavich (sp?)(Solslitzen[sp?])

The Last of the Mohegans

Dracula (and the Ann Rice books)

Candidie (Voltare)

Ivanhoe

The Gilgamish Epic

Any Charles Dickens(no loss), O Henry, or Shalom Alehem

Night (Eli Witzel)

Also Samuel Clemen's Tom Sawyer and A Connetuct Yankee in King Arthor's Court are better (my opinion)

The Red Badge of Courage

Uncle Tom's Cabin

Stephenwolf

The Tin Drum

Primary Colors

Stanger in a Strange Land

The Clan of the Cave Bear

I'm amazed ...

... and perhaps filled with admiration, that people actually remember so much about novels they've read. I've been reading particularly the discussion between Puddin' and Aardvark.

I read voraciously from about 8 to 25 and gradually tailed off. I've read most/all of D H Lawrence, Jane Austen, Isaac Assimov, Heinlen, Conan Doyle, Patrick O'Brian, Neville Shute, John Steinbeck etc etc but I probably completed all that before I was 25 (over 30 years ago) and gradually tailed off. I've continued to read sporadically since though more news and non-fiction than novels these days. I regard fiction, with very few exceptions, as pure entertainment and a week later I've almost forgotten what I've read. I must have read all Austen at least twice but only with difficulty could I tell you the plot/characters of any except perhaps Emma (obviously the eponymous heroine is easy but the plot strikes a chord too).

I was particularly impressed with your casual knowledge of Dune which I read whilst on a holiday in France in 1968 (the year of the riots in Paris) but the plot and characters mean nothing now. Yet in other respects I have quite a good memory. I wonder why that is. Perhaps it's because I never studied English Literature at school after the 3rd form (14 years old) and so never disciplined myself to be able to recall plots etc for an exam.

Geoff

>> your casual knowledge of Dune

Puddintane's picture

If you'll pardon the inference, since in this context I don't know what gender you favour, my memory of names and relationships, even in books, is not at all exceptional among women, and my grandmother on my father's side had a memory for relationships that astounded me. She was from the Texas panhandle country, and my grandfather (from Oklahoma) once saw a car at a gas station in southern California with Texas plates and walked up to the woman and said, "You're from Texas, right? My wife thinks she's related to you."

Of course she hadn't said any such thing, but between them, those two women held enough genealogical data that they discovered within a few moments that they were, in fact, related. Of course, we're *all* of us related, if you go far enough back, but few of us, in this time of nuclear families, know enough about our ancestors to make the connections. She knew. As it turns out, she was also related to Lyndon Johnson, the former President, and I have a cousin who used to wear cousin Johnson's cast off shirts. They were monogrammed, so he used to spend hours picking out the embroidery thread, until he became President, when he decided to leave it where it was. I know this, because I met him once, and he took the trouble to point it out.

I'm sure most men have experienced the frustration involved in arguing with one's significant female other, in which the woman can tell you *exactly* what was said three years ago, what she was wearing, and what you did, you dirty dog. The poor fellow is lucky if he remembers that they were married then, much less what went on, or what she *had* on. It's that corpus callosum thingie, I'm sure.

Cheers,

Puddin'

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Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

Memory

erin's picture

I've got a phenomenal memory for anything I've read or heard or for line drawings. Paintings not so much. Faces I haven't sketched out may disappear from my memory but if I've drawn a picture of someone, I don't forget their face. Even if I draw it AFTER I've already forgotten their name and they aren't there anymore. Now that's just weird. :) I can also remember arbitrary strings of numbers better than most people, though not as well as I used to be able to.

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

>> I've got a phenomenal memory...

Puddintane's picture

I can't tell if you're offering this as an example or a counterexample. Since you are, or choose to present yourself as, female, it would seem more likely to be an example, assuming that you consider yourself as "feminine" in any serious way.

If, as I believe, there is an underlying physical and physiological process associated with transgendered feelings, it shouldn't be surprising that you, or anyone using a female name on this site, had at least *some* "feminine" characteristics, regardless of your "biological" assignment.

Exactly how the brain confabulates this reality may vary widely, and essentially the same reality may yield many different sequelae, but there *will* be consequences, not all of which may be uniformly satisfying.

I daresay there are very few, if any, readers who are perfectly "normal," least of all me, who am pretty darned butch, most of the time, although not spectacularly exceptional, at least within my particular circle of friends.

Cheers,

Puddin'
------------------
What all the ads and all the *whore*oscopes seemed to imply was that if only you were narcissistic enough, if only you took proper care of your smells, your hair, your boobs, your eyelashes, your armpits, your crotch, your stars, your scars, and your choice of Scotch in bars--you would meet a beautiful, powerful, potent, and rich man who would satisfy every longing, fill every hole, make your heart skip a beat (or stand still), make you misty, and fly you to the moon (preferably on gossamer wings), where you would live totally satisfied forever.
--- Erica Jong

Unlike Erica Jong, I always knew this fantasy was bullshit, so wasn't terribly disappointed when it was proved to me.

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

Oh, I can remember real instances ...

... very well indeed. I remember clearly when I first met my life partner and lots of other times which she doesn't so well. So, no, I don't have a problem with my wife's remembering real life occasions and I don't. In fact it's often the reverse. I don't think it's gender related. I'm very good at finding my way around the UK even without my personal GPS system aka my excellent map reader wife (another stereotype blown). She doesn't even need to turn the map upside down when we're travelling south.

It's just novels and fiction in general I can never recall. I suppose it's because I don't take it very seriously. As far as I'm concerned it's just entertainment. Even 'The Grapes of Wrath', which affected me so deeply at the time that I know I could never read it again, only remains as a set of impressions.

I can forget names of people I know very well which can be embarrassing. At one time I collected money for a pools syndicate at work and I often had to stand around chatting for a while as I struggled to remember a guy's name so I could write the receipt. These were people I dealt with every working day and my mind would go blank.

I'm very wary of attributing traits to gender though I guess they can work provided they're not too specific. Then there's the problem of nature or nurture. One of the best engineers who worked for me was a very attractive young woman who not only shared my birth date but was young enough to be my daughter, darn it :) Fortunately for us both, that's how I felt about her. I know she was a damn sight cleverer than I.

Geoff

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