You Are What You Read?

Printer-friendly version

Author: 

Taxonomy upgrade extras: 

Here are two reading lists, one of men's "must reads" from Esquire, and one of women's from Jezebel. Can we assume someone's gender orientation by whether they've read more of one list than the other?

http://www.esquire.com/the-side/feature/75-books?src=rss

http://jezebel.com/5053732/75-books-every-woman-should-read-...

[credit goes to Slog for this one]

Comments

I be Illeeterite

I have read 3.5 from the men's list and 1 from the women's list.

Me Too

Two from the men's list and one from the women's list.

Uh, well . . .

I only found one on the woman's list, The Left Hand of Darkness, Ursula K. LeGuin, and I didn't finish it. The man's list is some kind of slide show, and after 5 minutes loading on my dial-up connection I gave up.

KJT


"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin

Here's a remarkably similar list...

Puddintane's picture

...for anyone who might be irritated by the semi-literate format of the Esquire list.

The 75 Books Every Man Should Read

A Confederacy of Dunces, by John Kennedy Toole
A Fan's Notes, by Frederick Exley.
A Good Man Is Hard to Find and Other Stories, by Flannery O'Connor
A Sense of Where You Are, by John McPhee
A Sport and a Pastime, by James Salter
Affliction, by Russell Banks
All the King's Men, by Robert Penn Warren
American Pastoral, by Philip Roth
American Tabloid, by James Ellroy
Angle of Repose, by Wallace Stegner
As I Lay Dying, by William Faulkner
Blood Meridian, by Cormac McCarthy
CivilWarLand in Bad Decline, by George Saunders
Collected Stories of John Cheever
Deliverance, by James Dickey
Dispatches, by Michael Herr
Dog Soldiers, by Robert Stone
Dubliners, by James Joyce
For Whom the Bell Tolls, by Ernest Hemingway
Going Native, by Stephen Wright
Heart of Darkness, by Joseph Conrad
Hell's Angels, by Hunter S. Thompson
Invisible Man, by Ralph Ellison
Labyrinths, by Jorge Luis Borges
Legends of the Fall, by Jim Harrison
Let Us Now Praise Famous Men, by James Agee and Walker Evans
Lolita, by Vladimir Nabokov
Lonesome Dove, by Larry McMurtry
Lucky Jim, by Kingsley Amis
Master and Commander, by Patrick O'Brian.
Midnight's Children, by Salman Rushdie
Moby Dick, by Herman Melville
Native Son, by Richard Wright
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, by Ken Kesey
Plainsong, by Kent Haruf
Rabbit, Run, by John Updike
Revolutionary Road, by Richard Yates
Slaughterhouse-Five, by Kurt Vonnegut
So Long, See You Tomorrow, by William Maxwell
Sophie's Choice, by William Styron
The Adventures of Augie March, by Saul Bellow
The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, by Mark Twain
The Autobiography of Malcolm X, by Alex Haley
The Brothers Karamazov, by Fyodor Dostoevsky
The Call of the Wild, by Jack London
The Continental Op, by Dashiell Hammett
The Crack-Up, by F. Scott Fitzgerald.
The Dharma Bums, by Jack Kerouac
The Good War, by Studs Terkel
The Grapes of Wrath, by John Steinbeck
The Great Bridge, by David McCullough
The Killer Angels, by Michael Shaara
The Known World, by Edward P. Jones
The Naked and the Dead, by Norman Mailer
The Postman Always Rings Twice, by James M. Cain
The Power and the Glory, by Graham Greene
The Professional, by W.C. Heinz
The Right Stuff, by Tom Wolfe
The Shining, by Stephen King
The Sportswriter, by Richard Ford
The Spy Who Came in from the Cold, by John LeCarré
The Things They Carried, by Tim O'Brien.
The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle, by Haruki Murakami
This Boy's Life, by Tobias Wolff
Time's Arrow, by Martin Amis
Tropic of Cancer, by Henry Miller.
Under the Volcano, by Malcolm Lowry
Underworld, by Don DeLillo
War and Peace, by Leo Tolstoy
What It Takes, by Richard Ben Cramer
What We Talk About When We Talk About Love, by Raymond Carver
Winesburg, Ohio, by Sherwood Anderson
Winter's Bone, by Daniel Woodrell
Winter's Tale, by Mark Helprin
Women, by Charles Bukowski

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

This men's list

I've read seven of these, not counting "War and Peace". I'm not convinced anybody has ever actually read "War and Peace", I think it's the literary equivilant of the fruitcake. There's actually only about a thousand of them, and they just get passed around and around.

Karen J.


"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin

Actually...

Puddintane's picture

Lots of people have read War and Peace, including me. Over time, it's not even difficult, since Angharad's "Easy" story is well over its length, just dosed out in smaller spoons. I daresay most of the people who've commented on this topic have read the latter, at very least.

As for the former, enough people have found it compelling that it's been translated into many languages, including three notable translations into English, and at least eight others. I know of editions in Hebrew, Danish, German, French, and Arabic. There are undoubtedly more. It's an astounding and subtle work, although many seem to think its weight makes it suitable only for a bludgeon to whack people "upside the head."

Cheers,

Puddin'
-----------------
"Love hinders death. Love is life. All, everything that I understand, I understand because I love. Everything is united by it alone. Love is God, and to die means that I, a particle of love, shall return to the general and eternal source." These thoughts seemed to him comforting. But they were only thoughts. Something was lacking in them, they were not clear, they were too one-sidedly personal and brain-spun. And there was the former agitation and obscurity.
--- Leo Tolstoy, War and Peace, Prince Andrew Bolkonski

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

Yeah?

Like I said, I don't think anybody has actually read "War & Peace"; even those who say they have. :-) It's like the mom asking the little boy at the dining-room table if he washed his hands. He may not have gotten within 25' of a sink and a bar of soap, but he's gonna say "yes". ;-)

Kinda like "The Rise & Fall Of The Third Reich". Nobody has ever finished that either. The last two chapters are actually random lines of gibberish, thrown in by the author to save time. I have that on the authority of my English teacher. She told me so shortly before she suddenly left her job and retired to the Mt. Idy Nursing Home and Asylum.

KJT

In the immortal words of Foghorn Leghorn: "That's a joke, son, that's a joke! Do I gotta explain mumble, mumble . . . ."


"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin

My Sophomore Roomie

Took a class (that caused him to change his major)... Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. He PREFERRED the Brothers Karaqmazov, but found War and Piece and Anna Karannenia [sp?] both very good (in English). He's since read them in Russian (His major changed to Russian Studies). I SAW him turning the pages, at least, anyway.

Most of the listed titles I have little interest in reading either.

But, I just wanted you to know I knew at least ONE person that I saw acting like they were reading it, and his description seemed to match the story (as I saw it in movies). He could have gotten that by reading Cliffs Notes though. (Danged movie I saw back in the early 70s on PBS - was HOURS a nightr for 4 nights running... )

Annette

Karen, I beg you ....

.... Do try War and Peace. It is the most unforgettable, un-put-downable book I have ever read. It fairly rattles along. But you do need an edition with a bookmark which gives a referenjce list of who everyone is as the names are variable. Either that or make your own list as you go along, otherwise one is always checking back to confirm that whoever it is .... is who you think they are.

It is certainly miles better than Moby Dick, reading which makes counting sheep a comparatively a high risk activity for those with high blood pressure.

I haven't read most of the books in either list and doubtless never shall. Both lists seem rather biased towards American tastes and both contain many writers whom I suspect will be terminally out of print in a couple of decades. There are also some curious assumptions. Why are 'Cold Comfort Farm', 'Middlemarch', 'And Then There were None', to name but a few, considered as prescribed reading for women but not for men? In the latter's case the choice is perverse as, although women have traditionally outshone men as authors of the genre, detective stories are largely read by men. And for that matter why Agatha Christie? Why not Dorothy L. Sayers' 'The Nine Tailors'? Why detective stories at all for that matter as they are basically light entertainment and unlikely to improve the mind to any significant extent. Or if they are to be included, why not a Sherlock Holmes mystery which would at least represent more of a milestone. As would Wilkie Collins' 'Moonstone'.

And whilst on the subject of 'Why Nots'. Why no 'Vanity Fair'? Nor anything by Trollope? Or Hardy, or Surtees, or Fielding, etc? And what has happened to Tristram Shandy? Why not Graves' 'Goodbye to All That'?

At least one wouldn't be taking them down to the Charity shop in a few years time.

Not that I read many novels being more inclined to biographies and works of an historical nature. I generally work on the principle that I have enough troubles of my own without reading of the imagined, emotional, and frequently calamitous, experiences of fictional others. In general I believe I read most of that which is worth reading in my youth and am content to let it rest there.

But do, I beg you, try 'War and Peace' Karen. It is a roller coaster of a ride.

Hugs

Fleurie Fleurie

Fleurie

Sorry, but

For me that roller coaster never pulled out. Like "Moby Dick" and more than a few of the books on those two lists, I picked them up and started reading, only to put them down a short time later.

I have read one Sherlock Holmes book, but I much prefer the Basil Rathbone films. Bogey as one of his film detectives I love, but I don't read detective novels. Most of the rest of the stuff I barely recognize, if at all.

That's the problem with such lists, they are usually attempts to codify one person's tastes, which I'm unlikely to share.

KJT


"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin

I agree that the list is biased toward US authors...

Puddintane's picture

...but

>> detective stories are largely read by men.

isn't really true. A certain kind of mystery story (the hard-boiled variety) is read mostly by men, but the "cozy" variety are mostly read by women. The largest number of books published for lesbians are mysteries, not romances, which come in second, and vary from strait-laced police procedurals to humorous detectives with psychic powers.

Straight women like mysteries as well, and there are a number of books catering to them, and to their writers: Detecting Women by Willetta Heising is one, but there are many more.

Women account for 80% of the total market for fiction, so in some sense almost every fiction title published, other than outright men's adventure stories, is "chick-lit," even Hemingway, even Robert Ludlow.

Women tend to be more empathetic than most men, for whom the complexity of the novel is difficult, and sometimes quite perplexing, so they tend to prefer non-fiction, where one can see "the facts, ma'am, just the facts" set down square.

Men's reading trends have gone down every year since the 50's, when TV and other electronic entertainment started to make serious inroads on print.

The sole exception to this general trend has been the Harry Potter series, written by a woman, which has been more popular with boys than it has for girls, possibly because the girl's market is very well-served, and the Potter stories loaded toward too many male characters and too much male "superman" combat fantasy.

>> Prescribed reading...

I have the impression that their selection criteria included "of particular importance to women," as well as merely being a good book.

Cheers,

Puddin'
--------------------
I've been married to one Marxist
and one Fascist, and neither one
would take the garbage out.
--- Lee Grant

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

When copying simple lists from copyrighted text...

Puddintane's picture

It's a fairly good idea to rearrange them, and I retained none of the original commentary. By "remarkably similar," I meant to imply a certain laconic humor, but my arrangement also has the novel advantage of making the former -- mostly non-copyrightable -- disorderly list easier to compare with the second list.

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

There were several complaints...

Puddintane's picture

So I handled them all...

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

And the other, for convenience

Puddintane's picture

75 Books Every Woman Should Read

A Good Man Is Hard To Find (and Other Stories), Flannery O'Connor
A Thousand Acres, Jane Smiley
A Tree Grows In Brooklyn, Betty Smith
A Vindication of the Rights of Woman, Mary Wollstonecraft
Against Interpretation, Susan Sontag
And Then There Were None, Agatha Christie
Angela's Ashes, Frank McCourt
Annie John, Jamaica Kincaid
Bad Behavior, Mary Gaitskill
Bastard out of Carolina, Dorothy Allison
Beloved, Toni Morrison
Cold Comfort Farm, Stella Gibbons
Earthly Paradise, Colette
Excellent Women, Barbara Pym
Fear of Flying, Erica Jong
Frankenstein, Mary Shelley
Fun Home, Alison Bechdel
Gone with the Wind, Margaret Mitchell
I Capture the Castle, Dodie Smith
I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings, Maya Angelou
In the Time of the Butterflies, Julia Alvarez
Jane Eyre, Charlotte Brontë
Like Life, Lorrie Moore
Little Women, Louisa May Alcott
Love in a Cold Climate, Nancy Mitford
Love In The Time of Cholera, Gabriel Garcia Marquez
Madame Bovary, Gustave Flaubert
Middlemarch, George Eliot
My Antonia, Willa Cather
Nightwood, Djuna Barnes
Persepolis, Marjane Satrapi
Possession, A.S. Byatt
Pride and Prejudice, Jane Austen
Property, Valerie Martin
Runaway, Alice Munro
Slouching Towards Bethlehem, Joan Didion
Sophie's Choice, William Styron
Spending, Mary Gordon
Tell Me a Riddle, Tillie Olsen
The Bell Jar, Sylvia Plath
The Delta of Venus, Anais Nin
The Diary of Anne Frank, Anne Frank
The Face of War, Martha Gellhorn
The God of Small Things, Arundhati Roy
The Golden Notebook, Doris Lessing
The Good Earth, Pearl S. Buck
The Group, Mary McCarthy
The Harsh Voice, Rebecca West
The Heart is A Lonely Hunter, Carson McCullers
The House of Mirth, Edith Wharton
The House of the Spirits, Isabel Allende
The Left Hand of Darkness, Ursula K. LeGuin
The Liars' Club, Mary Karr
The Little Disturbances of Man, Grace Paley
The Lottery (and Other Stories), Shirley Jackson
The Lover, Marguerite Duras
The Namesake, Jhumpa Lahiri
The Portable Dorothy Parker, Dorothy Parker
The Red Tent, Anita Diamant
The Second Sex, Simone de Beauvoir
The Secret History, Donna Tartt
The Shipping News, E. Annie Proulx
The Unbearable Lightness of Being, Milan Kundera
The Woman Warrior, Maxine Hong Kingston
Their Eyes Were Watching God, Zora Neale Hurston
Three Junes, Julia Glass
Three Lives, Gertrude Stein
To Kill a Mockingbird, Harper Lee
To the Lighthouse, Virginia Woolf
Valley of the Dolls, Jacqueline Susann
White Teeth, Zadie Smith
Wide Sargasso Sea, Jean Rhys
Wuthering Heights, Emily Brontë
You Can't Keep a Good Woman Down, Alice Walker
You Must Remember This, Joyce Carol Oates

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

hmmm

kristina l s's picture

Eleven and six, though if you count films of the books the total jumps by several on both sides. A few 'odd' choices and several especially on the womens list I've never heard of. Still as I've read more there I must be a big girly girl huh. Or maybe a mad feminist or a self confident woman of today, or.... maybe I'm just as big a muddle as I was when I woke up this morning. Nah surely not. Interesting lists though.

Kristina

If We Include Films...

...of books, then I've seen a shockingly large number of films made of books from the women's list. To be fair, most of those were at the suggestion of my wife, so I can't take credit for seeking them out, but I must admit to having thoroughly enjoyed them.

As for the books themselves, I'm not entirely sure which I've actually read, from either list. Having seen so many movies definitely muddles up the memory. Did I read this, or just see the movie? Oh, I remember checking that one out of the library, but did I ever get around to reading it? And, so forth.

My Tally

I think I've read 11 books from the men's list and 9 from the women's, actual reading of actual books. If we include books, movies and plays, i've been exposed to 23 from the men's list and 24 from the women's.

Eleven to Ten?

erin's picture

Eleven on the women's list and ten on the men's. But I take exception to some of the sorting there, there was only one overlap and by gosh there ought to be more! Crackpot idea to have two such lists with no overlap. How is Huck Finn a book for men and not women? How is The Diary of Anne Frank a book for women but not men? I only noticed one book by a female writer on the men's list and five or six by men on the women's list. That bugs me, too.

All 21 books that I had read were good reads, though I would have to say I don't think everyone of them deserved to be on a list like this.

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

I was really surprised

By Huck Finn's placement myself. Heck, I was surprised by several items on BOTH lists. But, I guess I'm easily surprised.

Annette

>> Ought to be more overlap...

Puddintane's picture

Considering how many *great* novels there are in the world, and assuming more or less random dips into the well, it's a minor miracle that there's any overlap at all.

And many of those chosen are surely compromises. The women's list has Bad Behavior, a collection of short stories by Mary Gaitskill. but ignores Two Girls, Fat and Thin, as well as Veronica, both of which are superb.

Jean Rhys' Wide Sargasso Sea is excellent, a sort of "prequel" to Jane Eyre, which is also present, but they should be read together, the prequel last, because the prequel, at least, is informed by the original novel and much would be lost without prior knowledge of it.

Annie Proulx' The Shipping News is great, and won a Pulitzer, but she also wrote Brokeback Mountain, which won the O'Henry Prize for short fiction and has some relevance here.

Ursula K. LeGuin's Left Hand of Darkness is there, but what about Ursula LeGuin's The Femals Man, or Octavia Butler's Kindred?

Cheers,

Puddin'

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

Eight to seven

As in, eight from the women's list, seven from the men's, and about that many more from each list that I've been meaning to read one of these days, in my copious free time.

I agree it's pretty silly that there's so little overlap between the two lists. Sure, we're (most of us) men and/or women, but first and foremost, aren't we all human beings?

Pretty silly...

Puddintane's picture

>> ...that there's so little overlap between the two lists. Sure, we're (most of us) men and/or women, but first and foremost, aren't we all human beings?

To some extent, but certain topics clearly appeal to *most* men more than they appeal to *most* women and vice versa. Just ask the "average guy's" opinion of "chick flicks," or the average woman's *sincere* thoughts about movies featuring lots of guns going off, car chases, and explosions.

There are many books on the women's list that fairly consistently poll just above cleaning up vomit for most men, and a similar selection for women on the men's list.

It's perfectly true that there are *also* overlaps, which appeal to humans in general, but there are as many that I wouldn't read on a bet.

Cheers,

Puddin'
-----------------
There's no accounting for taste.
De gustibus non est disputandum.

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

OK, maybe I'm the silly one then :)

certain topics clearly appeal to *most* men more than they appeal to *most* women and vice versa.

You're right, of course; publishers' marketing departments depend on it. Which helps reinforce it, making it somewhat self-fulfilling, but that's beside the point; the dichotomy exists, whether somehow innate or "merely" cultural.

I guess between my feminist mother and older sister, and having grown up having to justify having a lot of tendencies of the one while trying to appear to be the other, I just have a hard time seeing things in those terms, and am always a bit taken aback when I see others doing so.

Feminism...

Puddintane's picture

I too, had a feminist mother and grew up a feminist, although my exact positions have changed over the years, having experimented with general feistiness in high school, Separatism and Women's Land (eventually, no... *rapidly*, boring, as I'm a city girl who needs the amenities available in largish cities, preferably major metropolitan areas with theatres and a symphony or two, hopefully a ballet as well), cultural feminism (still *tend* toward that view, but then there's Sarah Palin as a counter-example, although there are exceptions to every rule, but mostly just "I can do pretty much whatever I please, and you can do the same, as long as we don't trip over each other, and keep up our portions of the social contract."

Cheers,

Puddin'

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

About 10 to 15

Interesting ~

I figure about 10 on the women's to 15 on the men's....

Never heard of most of them & I like to read - but most of them look like they'd be wastes of my time - YES, I am judging books by their covers! Most of them look rather dated...

YW

He conquers who endures. ~ Persius

Ashamed to say

I've only read 17 on the men's list and 16 on the women's list. I found it interesting that one book made both lists - Sophie's Choice. I imagine that it made the two lists for very different reasons.

Commentator
Visit my Caption Blog: Dawn's Girly Site

Visit my Amazon Page: D R Jehs

Overlap

erin's picture

There was another book that overlapped. I didn't notice Sophie's Choice overlapping. A Good Man is Hard to Find was also on both lists.

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

14:13

For the men's list .

I got to say that I can't figure whats the logic behind those lists. What makes The wind up bird chronicle a must read for men and not women? ( Is it because the story is told from a point of view of a man?).

Anyway I liked going through this lists cause it reminded me of good books I read and books that I wanted to read but never got to them.

P.S
Both list lack an entry for M. Scott Fitzgerald "The Great Gatsby" , does anybody else sees that as a really big miss ?

I assume ...

... both lists are sourced by US magazines as the men's list (which was a pain to read because it insisted on a slide show of book covers - why?) seemed to be biassed towards US writers. I can't be certain because of the way the list was displayed. I don't think there was any Orwell or Lawrence on either list, which is a greater loss than Scott Fitzgerald or Oberon Waugh for that matter IMHO.

My score? 9 from the men's and 7 from the women's. Can't remember much about a lot of them because first, it's a long time since I read any of them and, second, I have a very short memory for fiction - until I start re-reading by mistake :)

Geoff

PS I hate lists like this so why am I always compelled to check myself against them?

Virtually failed this one.

I've only read one of the books for sure from both list and that was because it was assigned in school oh so many, many years ago. There may be a couple of others but I'm not sure if the titles were the same ones I read or if I'm confusing other book titles/authors. Apparently my preferred genre for reading didn't really make it into either list.

Arwen

Hmmm...

Puddintane's picture

I've read thirty-three of the "women's list" and twenty-three of the "men's list," although I wasn't terribly impressed with the quality of the men's list, possibly because it included too many sports and men's adventure books, not to mention Lolita and the profoundly silly comment on the "titty," which might be terribly symbolic and all that, but more fantasy than reality. When a woman is starving, her milk supply isn't all that nutritious, and what might be a great plenty for a tiny baby, whose stomach is about the size of a marble, won't supply all that much nourishment to a grown man.

I have to confess as well that the inclusion of so much "popular literature" was interesting on both lists, not that I'm against popular literature, but the men's list especially seemed designed to offer the "right books" to have read for social situations.

Cheers,

Puddin'

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

18 and 12

I agree with Erin. To assign a gender to many of these books is baffling. Most of those I haven't read, I never will, but there were a few that I had simply missed. I was pleased to see that John Updike made the list. Rabbit Angstrom is one of my favorite characters.

Angela Rasch (Jill M I)

Angela Rasch (Jill M I)

I've read some of these but I've seen more as filmas and ....

My Ghod, I'm a woman! Now I have to buy a whole new waredrobe. Hum what goes with dark green Sorel winter boots?

I am soooo happy Crime and Punishment was NOT on either list, reading it in high school was both. And don't even go into Billy Budd or A Separate Peace. Now To Kill a Mockingbird or anything by Mark Twain I'll tale any day. Even a autobiogrphy like General Grant's is an easier read tham one of them-thar loooooog winded Russian novels. Hell, Chekov's The Cherry Orchard made me want to slap some of the characters silly!

As to Charles Dickens, I have mxed feelings but then he did get paid by the word I believe so I forgive him.

And what is wrong with a guy reading Jane Austin? Hum? What! Them's fightn' words.

John in Wauwatosa

John in Wauwatosa

Not my usual fare

I suppose I read about 11 on the men's side and 8 on the women's, although I wasn't able to finish a couple on the men's side, like "Rabbit, Run," which I found mildly pointless when I was thirteen, and I found Toni Morrison's "Beloved" unreadable. (Yes, I know that she was awarded the Nobel Prize -- a travesty) I'm more into history and sci-fi/fantasy, so I found that I'd read "Slaughterhouse Five," which is borderline sci-fi, and "Left Hand of Darkness," which is pretty good sci-fi. "Left Hand" explores the concepts of male and female on a world where the people are normally androgynous and can turn male and female at different times. That book, found on the women's side, is told from a male point of view, by the way.

It seemed to me the editors or staff writers developed a concept that would be interesting to readers and then tried to find books to fit it. I think whoever did the choosing did a pretty good job with this warped premise, they had to separate it out somehow. How many women would buy a copy of "Dog Soldier" and how many men would buy something written by Maya Angelou or Toni Morrison?

A quibble: Why wasn't "Tarnsman of Gor" on a list? :)

Regardless of how good a job they did, special lists that men and women should read, in my opinion, assumes a need that doesn't exist. It's gratifying that so many of the comments in this thread are skeptical. There's plenty of excellent literature that men and women can draw something from, each from their own perspective. What men and women take away from such books is a worthier subject to discuss.

Another interesting question, in my opinion, is who writes the opposite sex better. I think, in general, men do a better job writing women characters than women do writing men. Women tend to make men either stiff (no pun intended) or feminine, less realistic to me than their female main characters. It's all pretty darn subjective, but there it is. What do other people think?

Aardvark

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

Writing for an audience

erin's picture

I think a lot of women write for other women. And male writers tend to write for men. The better a female writer is, the less noticeable this effect is. The same is not true for male writers, the really good ones can still seem to ignoring half of their audience.

I read a lot of everything. Romance writers tend to be female and the male ones write under female names, usually, so it's hard to suss out. In general, male characters in romances are cardboardy. Frequently, they are a little too good to be true. My favorite romance writers, like Jane Feather and Mary Jo Putney can rise above this and write believable male characters, though Jane doesn't always do so. Diane Gabaldon writes some really good male characters. Jo Beverly is a good writer but many of her males seem to be played by the same two or three stock characters.

In science fiction, you often see the opposite effect. Some male writers in SF write very simple female characters if they bother with any at all. The tendency is less pronounced, though. Female Sf writers are usually pretty good at writing the male parts.

In mysteries, there are different sub-genres that seem to have different effects on the writers in gender characterizations. I've seen some amazingly good depictions of opposite gender characters from both male and female writers. Male thriller writers seem the poorest at writing females and females writing in the new romantic mystery style seem the poorest at writing males.

I think the perception the writer has of their audience is the deciding factor here. Women writing romances know that very few men are going to be reading them. And romances are often about the internal feelings of the female main character, a highly developed male character might just get in the way. Same for romantic suspense and romantic mystery.

Many science fiction and thriller writers perceive their audiences to be more male. Highly developed female characters would tend to distract the heroes from the action. Enough exceptions to this to say it can't be considered a rule, though.

Just some thoughts.

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

Agree in part

Romance novels are, without a doubt, written for a generally female audience, although men like me have been known to pick up one every now and then. :) True! the story is written around the female lead. The lead male is necessarily more a foil than an equal partner. Sometimes a romance has a pretty realistic man, but the genre isn't really set up to be an equal domain for men and women characters.

A few generalities: Most women write about women and most men about men. Critiquing a man or woman for writing poor ancillary male and female bit parts, while not entirely invalid, isn't really the true test of how well a writer does with the opposite gender. However, is there a proving ground where one can make a valid comparison?

I think so. And so I disagree with you about sci-fi (and fantasy). A heck of a lot of male writers have female leads and powerful, convincing roles for women. I can think of several authors off the top of my head:

S. M. Stirling (Commodore Marion Alston-Kurlelo, among other lead women in the "Island in the Sea of Time" series), Terry Goodkind (Kahlen in "Sword of Truth" series), David Weber (Honor Harrington), and let's not forget the king of women characters, the late Robert Jordan in the "The Wheel of Time" series. All of these writers spent a lot of time directly inside women's heads. All, with the possible exception of Honor Harrington, are strong yet feminine. So much for the men.

Where is the equivalent on the distaff side? Anne McCaffery, like the quality of her books, was a mixed bag, but in general, she didn't do grown males particularly well. C. J. Cherryh is mediocre (at best) at portraying men. True, she's more story-driven than character driven, yet even on that level, her males and females could be interchangeable parts with a few details grudgingly thrown in because she has to. Realistic romance? Hah! C. S. Friedman gives it a better shot; all her characters are well-drawn, but her male leads still act as sometimes powerful, sensitive, part-time eunuchs. I have a hard time understanding them as guys. Barbara Hambly is fairly good at it. Of the long dead, Jane Austin is the queen. She was a natural observer and made no bones about the differences between men and women. She celebrated the differences rather than smoothed them over.

In conclusion, except for the aforementioned Jane Austin, the instances of women writing convincing male passion and sexual tension are far and few between. Naturally, my opinion is highly subjective, and so is not to be taken as some final word, but....

And yet, as you noted, and I picked up on, male writers seem to be successful romance novelists. Hm. Could this be another sort of testing ground? Could you be unsuspectingly proving my point?

For the purposes of this argument, I'll take that as a yes.

*Drum roll underlying portentous music*

Assuming that this IS so, and women, in general, don't do male characters very well, could the reason be that women are afraid of what they might find in the depths of the male mind? Male writers seem to be relatively unafraid to enter women's heads. Or *gasp* is another factor at work? Do many woman truly understand men? A question arises: Could any woman writer alive write a strictly male perspective novel like Mickey Spillane did without seeming ridiculous?

:)

Aardvark

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

Yeah, it's a complex topic

erin's picture

And there are really only tendencies not rules here. We're in pretty much in agreement.

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

>> women are afraid...

Puddintane's picture

...of what they might find in the depths of the male mind?

Sounds like you may have been reading too much Frank Herbert, since that's his *exact* explanation of the "necessity" of a male Kwisatz Haderach in his execrable Dune series, derivative of, and a continuation of, Gordon R. Dickson's equally dreadful Dorsai series.

Oh, those pathetic Bene Gesserit "Witches," trying to "measure up" to a man is obviously impossible, since they don't have "the equipment." And then the Great Paul Atreides is in the end magically transformed into a gigantic god-like penis. Too bad Freud is dead, as he would have had a real belly laugh over that one.

Dune is only the latest in a long line of misgynistic male-dominated SF/F, and I'm quite sure it won't be the last.

Cheers,

Puddin'
-----------------------
Any sufficiently elaborated SF/F Universe is indistinguishable from codswallop.
--- Puddintane

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

"Dune" and "Dorsai!"

Geez, Puddin', after reading a few of your comments, I get the impression that your brain is a funhouse of mirrors with banana peels scattered all over the floor. You're liable to see all manner of permutations and lurch in any direction without warning. Your incandescent hatred of the cult classic, "Dune," makes me wonder what you'd do after a couple of shots of tequila and a shout of "Worm sign!" ;)

And going off against the innocent juvenile fiction of "Dorsai!"? Eek!

If THAT offends you, then don't, for the sake of your health, read "The Lensmen," and definitely avoid anything by John Norman like a plague of Jehovah's Witnesses! :)

Regards,

Aardvark

"Sci-fi: where men are men and women are women -- most of the time."

Aardvark

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

Wonder no more...

Puddintane's picture

I know exactly what I'd do after a couple of shots (make that around a third of a bottle) of Patron Tequila (with lemons and salt of course), which I shared with my then friend "Gawk" (don't ask!) in Cleveland, Ohio, around midnight in the dead of winter back in 1976. Snow was on the ground. I was bundled up in a long wool skirt and my big Mexican rebozo over a huipil, my typical costume that winter. I later gave that rebozo to my friend Nola, who was a dancer and complained of the cold, and I've never seen one like it again. I'd bought it in Los Mochis, Sinaloa, where most of my Mexican relatives live, and these things tend to be regional. I don't regret it, though, as we'd been friends for a long time, both having been in love with the same woman at one point, but she managed to beat my time, as they say. Kathy, on the other hand, taught me how to ride a motorcycle, which I did for years. I made the papers when I went to visit, just the once, as it's a long drive through very hot desert, as La Gringa, the exotic prima with the striking blue eyes and long blonde hair. My aunt, Blanca Rosa, is a local landowner of note, so her cousins were enough to make the front page. That was ok, although it's not the most flattering term, as I had a cousin, Billy, then four years old, who they called "El Diablo." It was true. He bit me on the ass once, when I foolishly turned my back on him.

Anyway, after a few shots and shouts, Gawk and I traded a few kisses, heavy with tongue, but then Gawk decided to kiss the dog, and even drunk I don't kiss anyone who kisses dogs, at least with tongue, so I left him to his own devices and wandered inside.

There, my friend Sarah and I got to arguing over who was the better jacks player in school, which wound up with us demanding that some of the guys go out and buy some cheap jacks sets from the local all-night pharmacy and staging an impromptu jacks contest in which I was mopping up the floor with Sarah when a tall black man walked through the door wearing a stunning camel-hair overcoat and a snappy fedora and exclaimed, "Jacks! I've played me some jacks!" and demanded a seat on the floor.

He was from Detroit, which should have set alarms ringing in my head, but I was a bit fuzzy still. I think he may have been part of an organised gang of jacks hustlers, as his hands had obviously never handled tools nor performed manual labour. He had the biggest, but strangely slender and delicate, hands I've ever seen on a man, and he quickly trounced both Sarah and myself, so I went out onto the porch and sat with a woman I'd just met who had a bottle of wine that tasted like bubble gum, with whom I went home, only to discover that her place was as filthy as you can imagine, with incredible clutter, open tins of bean dip and corn chips spilled out on the floor, and an incredibly ugly and huge clay sculpture with medusa grass on top of it, inscribed, 'I could have forgotten her, but then she spoke to me of Albion Moonlight in a voice as soft as incense.'

She wanted to have sex. I didn't, any ardour I'd previously possessed having been overcome by second thoughts, although the sculpture and quote were a definite point in her favour, since I knew what the phrase referred to, even drunk.

I've read the Lensman books, and you're right; I didn't like them at all, as they were all horribly sexist and patronising to women. The Skylark series was better, I thought, with somewhat bolder women characters, but still a little creepy. The Gor series is even more execrable than Dune with its rapid decline into puerile semi-pornography, and I couldn't finish even one of them, so you're dead on about that as well. Surprisingly enough, I rather enjoyed the *idea* of Barsoom, and rather fancied the bloodthirsty Thuvia and her ilk, although they wilted disappointingly in the presence of an Earthman, for which, I think, we must read "white man," given the general context of the times. That issue is my objection to all the books you mention, as well as Dorsai and Dune, the misogyny and sexism at their heart.

I don't drink, as a general rule, not then and not now, but have been more than tipsy on a very few times in my life, on two of them winding up kissing questionable men, which was a warning to me not to pursue this course of behaviour. Evidently, my standards lapse alarmingly with my higher brain functions depressed.

The tequila was the result of a bet, which I can't recall either winning or paying, so maybe we both forgot, and which had started out with Gawk and I drinking straight shots (think, the scene in the Indianna Jones film where Marion Ravenwood is running a bar in Nepal and drinks the ugly bandit under the table), shouting out random curses and exhortations in Spanish (Gawk had also grown up in California, so knew the lingo) between every new trip to the well, and I was doing well, I thought, until Gawk started kissing the damned dog. I guess I lost, so maybe Gawk was the one with the foggiest memory. He did look cute, though, romping around in the snow as if he were a dog himself. It's a sight I won't forget.

Funny, I can still remember most of that party as clearly as if it were yesterday. I had a mad crush on Sarah, but she was straight as an arrow and had a boyfriend besides. She moved out to California some years later, and we got in touch, but our unshared pasts got in the way of continued friendship. Hessler Street was an odd sort of place in those days, and all sorts of young people formed an uneasy alliance based mostly on who threw the best party on any particular night.

The upshot of which is that I'm a wild and crazy kind of woman, and I *really* liked Marion. Too bad she wasted her life on that rascal Dr Jones.

Cheers,

Puddin'
--------------------
Well, Jones, at least you haven't
forgotten how to show a lady a good time.
--- Marion, from Raiders of the Lost Ark

How to use a rebozo:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~elly/rebozo/

I had a cat, Dangerous Downtown Dave, who loved to ride around in mine, tied exactly in that way.

This is what Jacks are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacks

I was, and still am, to some extent, very good at tasks requiring manual dexterity and quick thinking, although my fingers are a little numb these days, after my little injury.

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

I'm with you and against you on 'Dune"

Both series had good books and not so good books
As for Dune, I liked and still like the first book. I barely managed to slog all the way through Dune Messiah, and gave up on Children of Dune, and haven't tried any of the other in large due to the reasons you gave.
As for Dorsai, I read the books as separate stories, some of which were good, some not so good, and a couple, not at all good.

I can think of many much more male dominated series and individual books, and even they have their following. Ten, fifteen years ago I would have been more inclined to read them, myself, but then, I was 'guy' in some ways. more way than I am now.

But while I might not enjoy some of the reading I used to do,face it, the world IS still almost half guys, so let them have their reading material. ( And their beliefs in male supremacy ) Neither of those books, at least, is likely to give them overpowering feelings that they should be overpowering women who do not want to be.

There are also a few female-dominated stories that go further in the opposite direction then these two series, and many that are eaul or less in that direction to these.

BTW, "Codswallop ??"

One of the most difficult things to give away is kindness.
It usually comes back to you.

Holly

One of the most difficult things to give away is kindness.
It usually comes back to you.

Holly

Dune...

Puddintane's picture

I didn't like the fact that Jessica, an adult trained in the ways of the Bene Gesserit, managed to lose her head completely as soon as they faced real danger, whilst *Paul*, evidently because he was holding the Magic Wand, kept his. I also didn't like the Honoured Matres, who are overcome and "topped" by a Real Man as soon as he happens along. That was in Heretics of Dune, I think, but similar incidents annoyed me all through the books I read. I moderated a woman's SF/F book discussion group for many years, so am fairly widely read in the genre.

I agree that there are many SF/F titles whose (male) authors are even more icky, but I don't read those at all. I did read Rainbow Credenza, by J. Neil Schulman, but it was fatuous as well as disgustingly sexist.

>> Other direction...

Well, a number. Daughters of a Coral Dawn is a good example, Katherine V. Forrest manages to kill off *all* the men (except for a few handy gay men, who the women keep as pets and for taking out spiders) by the third book of the series, which doesn't sound like all that much of a bad idea by then, and The Hadra or The Red Line of Yamald, which features bands of women who come to an accomodation with men, as long as they stay on their side of the line.

>> Codswallop...

It means nonsense, though I'm damned if I know why.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codswallop

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

Dune sexist?

I found Pauls mother to be a very strong character. She held her own when she and Paul were being taken to the desert on the ornithopter (I might be thinking of the movie here admittedly) and at the very least, she took the water of life, which is a pretty gutsy thing to do.

To me, the reason why Muad'dib was able to do things the Bene Gesserit couldn't wasn't because he was a man, there were plenty of men in the story who wouldn't last five seconds against those ladies (They were after all, arguably the true wielders of power in the series, manipulating things behind the scenes). The reason was that by taking the water of life, Paul merged both the masculine and the feminine inside himself. That was is the true power of the Kwisatz Hadderach to have both masculine and feminine energies. This, I know, was in the book as well as the David Lynch movie. One of the reasons I love the movie is its poetic use of imagery to depict this. When Paul is metabolizing the water of life an image of sand (masculinity) is double exposed with an image of water (femininity) symbolizing the merging of the two aspects.

Granted I can see your side of the argument a little. The story is a little male centric. Why couldn't the Kwisatz Hadderach be a female for instance? And why did it have to be the male twin in Children of Dune who became the God Emperor? But really I thought it had a great deal of strong female characters. I mean, I thought the Bene Gesserit were the best characters in the series. If it's a little male-centric, well it was written by a man, and it is a sort of messianic allegory. A female christ figure might have been hard for Herbert to imagine or sympathize with.

Anyway, just defending one of my favorite series. As I said I can somewhat see your point, I just think that as a whole the series was far from being sexist.

>> As I said I can somewhat see your point...

Puddintane's picture

Well, that's all that counts, isn't it?

I do understand that there are some strong female characters in Dune and it's sequels, but they *always* wind up being second bananas to male heroes, which disappoints me.

Jessica, for example, succumbs to the lure of love and bears a male heir to Paul's father, thereby thwarting the plans of the Bene Gesserit. OK, maybe Paul's son, or maybe Paul, since they are all mind-melded under the influence of Spice, acting through space and time with Ferdinand Feghoot, managed to arrange his own birth in a flourish of perfect solipsism, but still. The "Witches" have been planning this for centuries at least, possibly millenia, and Jessica, one of the faithful, the rough equivalent of an Archbishop, suddenly decides to become a Moonie and run off to a commune somewhere?

This strikes me as being about as likely as the current Pope walking out on his balcony next Wednesday afternoon and casually telling everyone that he now believed that women should be Priests, and it was all a terrible mistake that they'd been barred from the Priesthood for two thousand years.

>> the reason why Muad'dib...

Well, yes it was. Herbert says this explicitly, that women fear their masculine side, where men, at least Real Men like Paul, are perfectly sanguine about their feminine side. Yeah, ri-i-ight. This "masculine" core is where women cannot look, Neverland, because they never, never go there. The assembled witches are shown swooning because he appears within their minds, probably tastefully attired in a shabby black raincoat which he opens and... Gasp!

The fact is that most women are not frightened, or even alarmed, the the sight of a naked man, whether his soul is visible or not, assuming that their physical safety is assured. I recall that I was walking with my psychology intructor across campus once when a naked man ran up (a "streaker," one presumes) to us, bounced his private parts up and down a little whilst he smirked at us, and then ran off, tardily followed by campus security. Hannah and I looked at each other and burst out laughing. She said, "I think that was a penis, but aren't they supposed to be larger?" and we laughed some more. I said, "Well, it *is* a little chilly out," and we laughed again with perfect glee. I somehow doubt that our hilarity was the desired effect, but who knows? Maybe his giant shoes and big red nose were at the cleaners that day, so he had to make do with what he had...

Quite frankly, what sticks in my head is the peculiar smirk he had on his face, not what he had in his non-existent pants, about which I doubt that I could remember any details. His facial expression, on the other hand, mystified me, because I couldn't figure out what it meant, and men are usually transparent.

Cheers,

Puddin'

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

>> As for Dorsai...

Puddintane's picture

I admit that I liked a few of the books, or perhaps portions of a few of the books, because I can admire steadfast men of courage -- must be genetic -- and the Dorsai books had a mort of them. I didn't, however, like the overall arc of the series, which was sexist, and especially Necromancer, The Chantry Guild, and the whole Alternate Laws thing, which appears to be one of those things "Women Were Not Meant to Know," since all the powerful manipulators (no pun intended, although noted) of these forces are Men, one more example of the Nietzschean Superman come home to roost, and brood, that tsutcheppenisher *brooding*. If it wasn't a man doing it, one might be tempted to call it a pout. I know it's supposed to be Childe Rowland to the Dark Tower came, and I do like the Matter of Britain, but enough is enough already.

-

Cheers,

Puddin'

A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style

Maybe it goes beyond just audinece

and women get different kinds of books published (social and economic pressure? Or simply what most women want to write?). This seems to go back to Austen and Eliot. "Women's Novels" generally rely more on the interpersonal interactions, and less on the plot, this is true across genres, I think. I'm not widely read in Sci-fi, just the biggies mostly, but the only science fiction writer I can think of that seems concerned with character is LeGuin and, she did both genders very well.

Outside of genre fiction, the best women are, IMO, the character writers (except one, and her characters weren't shabby; just not what she did best.). Austen and Cather have written some of the best men and women in the library. But I agree overall; males, even the ones who create very great characters (Dickens, Twain, Faulkner, Steinbeck), don't really create women to match their men. Austen and Cather do. Or maybe, their stories allow the characters to shine.

And then there is Williams, who created great women, real women. But that was drama not novels, and he is off both lists. Capote also did a good women or two (Holly Golightly), and is also not on either list, but he did macho, action driven males well too. Gay males are unwelcome, I guess. And does being gay mean you can write better women? Cather's sexuality and gender identity are both controversial (at least in Lincoln, Nebraska and in one Professor's office in Utah, if no where else). I think this would be a great advantage to a writer in creating all characters, no?

Joy; Jan

LeGuin

Hm. Ursula K LeGuin is an excellent writer. I remember reading "The Left Hand of Darkness" and wondering about the main character, the Emissary. The entire time on the planet, he didn't have a single sexual relationship or seem all THAT interested in having one. I thought that a bit odd, because he had his chances. His reasoning was that he didn't want to take advantage, and that makes a certain sense, considering that he was The Emissary, but I thought that Ursula missed a chance there to do some exploring. Most men would have had some real problems on a world where the population, every now and then, went into heat (or kemmer, IIRC), and his presence guaranteed that they would always be female with him. I wrote it off because of the nature of his mission and the sort of restraint an emissary would have to have, but it did seem a little strange. I don't remember feeling the same way after reading any of her other books, so I think that she does men pretty well.

Jane Austin certainly did men well. She wrote a lot about them. She saw the good, the bad, the weak, the strong, and the ugly. I've only read a bit of Willa Cather, but she is very good, plainspoken, and has men down pretty well. I read a brief bio of Ursula K Le Guin. Her father was an anthropologist, and she has always been interested, as I am, in anthropology, cultures and exploring sexuality. They all seem to be natural observers.

Regards,

Aardvark

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."

Mahatma Gandhi

Pages