I know this divides trans women. This is just my take on the problem.
The whole thing about trans women is sport is too complex. Sports people are very competitive and will complain about the tiniest thing they think is unfair.
What is a trans woman? Someone that has had full surgery, has the same hormone levels as the average woman and has not gone through male puberty. Or a fully intact male that has no intention of taking hormones and having surgery?
If you use the self ID model that Scotland was trying to introduce.."Applicants must make a statutory declaration that they have lived in the acquired gender for at least three months before applying"
Critics would say that a man could make a claim to be trans win a load of tournaments then return to being a man after their sporting career is over.
Do you remember the row when John McEnroe said that Serena Williams would be around 700th if she played in the men's game? This came up when a reporter complained that he said she was the greatest "female" tennis player that ever lived . The reporter said why say female?, why not say greatest tennis player that ever lived. He said she isn't.
Serena lost to a guy that was ranked over 200th that had breaks to drink beer. You only have to watch mixed doubles the male players are usually way too powerful serving against the women.
This is just a random video I found about it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucRGB2fERus
While the scenario above is unlikely, any trans woman who wins anything will be accused of this. One woman even complained when a trans woman won a darts competition. What advantage does formerly being male give you at darts. Spatial awareness she said.
I just think that many trans women go through enough crap without antagonizing even more people and giving the haters more ammo.
Perhaps a compromise would be separate trans only competitions. I suspect there would be complaints about competitors who were not on hormones. Perhaps trans competitiors that win different awards to the genetic women? I really don't know.
Comments
To many variables
If it was about being fair all they have to do is measure things like bone mass, bone density, muscle mass, muscle density then make adjustments to finish times. These vary so much because nobody checks for these though they should. All a “born woman” has to have had during puberty was a few shots of steroids and she will always be stronger than other “women”. Women and men from different countries will also have different mass in muscles and bones. This will contribute to an “advantage”
But what do I know.
Did Anyone Accuse Michael Phelps of Cheating?
See this article. https://www.biography.com/athletes/michael-phelp-perfect-bod...
Michael Phelps' body is extraordinary in many ways. He would not have won any races if you adjusted his times proportionately to the average swimmer's body.
Yet, nobody whined because that was his natural body.
A transwoman wants to compete in women's sports in what is her "natural" body.
That is where the rub occurs.
About thirty years ago I was being interviewed by a magazine. Over the years I became friends with the writer for that magazine and admired his sound common sense.
The papers that day were filled with discussions of gays in the military. I agreed with Goldwater when he said, "You don't have to be straight to shoot straight." I asked my friend what the big deal was.
His answer -- "It's all about acceptance. Gay people want to be accepted and that's the one thing many people aren't willing to give them."
This argument about "fairness" in sports is poppycock. Sports governing bodies (IOC, NCAA) have established reasonable standards that include inclusivity and fairness issues.
https://stillmed.olympics.com/media/Documents/Beyond-the-Gam...
Their response should end the debate. If a person alters their body to gain a "disproportionate" advantage they shouldn't be allowed to compete.
I work out every day for ninety minutes. Yet, when I look in the mirror I don't see a seventy-five-year-old Adonis. I have an endomorph body. In sports I did okay. . .but I had to compete against an endless number of mesomorphs. Not only that, I was coached by people who believed that you lost natural quickness by lifting weights. We were forbidden from the sordid practice of weightlifting. Believe me . . . it wasn't easy in Arnold Schwarzenegger's heyday as a body-builder not to want to "alter" our bodies.
I competed against athletes who either had coaches with different beliefs -- or ignored their coach's rules. They were much stronger than me.
Should have those athletes' times been proportionately adjusted to my times based on muscle mass? Seems silly to even suggest it.
One of those athletes was my friend Chuck. Chuck was a mesomorph who had a set of weights in his basement. He was the captain of our football team. I was a good player. He scored most of our touchdowns and was elected homecoming king. We won that game 44-0 against a team that was picked by most people to beat us. I made several key plays in that game on defense.
In my thirties, I returned to my hometown and found out they were holding a 10k run. I decided to take part as I was running a lot of road races at that time. To my surprise, Chuch was also in the race. Chuck didn't play basketball or tennis, my two other main sports. He ran track (sprints) and played football. In both of those, he was much better than me.
For some reason, everything came together for me that day and I ran a 42:30 -- a personal best and a decent time for someone my age. I beat Chuck by about five minutes.
Some might suggest that by running an average of five miles a day for several years I had "altered" my body. Using the same strange logic many are using to exclude trans from competing, some would suggest that I had cheated Chuck.
Chuck had a strange look on his face when he met up with me after the race and asked for my time. Perhaps he had thoughts like that. If I had been acknowledged at that time as trans and Chuck had been Charlotte, perhaps Charlotte would have complained about my unfair advantage.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Not so fast, kid!
As the older trans women 'age out' of sports, they would have ostensibly been replaced with kids whose male advantage would have never occurred due to PRE-PUBESCENT T-blockers and hormone treatment. BUT the fucking states with this hugely misinformed position continue to prevent transgender medical intervention for minors. These kids. even if they continue to socially transition, will develop the exact-same attributes of which the ideologues disapprove.
And now at least two states have introduced bills making it a legal requirement for trans kids to DETRANSITION (as if withholding medically necessary treatment would not have accomplished that goal. No gender-identifying pronouns (the word 'preferred might as well be assigned to left-handers and redheads, yes?), no birth certificate changes. NO presenting oneself as MtF as KIDS.
https://www.hrc.org/news/idaho-house-passes-discriminatory-b...
It's not about sports; it's using 'sports' to further attempt to define us as they see fit!
Love, Andrea Lena
I Feel Your Pain
I'm calmed by the knowledge that Republicans have chosen to pin their hopes on a criminal. A pussy grabber.
But more importantly the Republicans are doubling down on silly trans bashing, fighting sensible gun control, and limiting a woman's rights to a righteous abortion. They are betting that people will vote against their personal beliefs.
At the same time they are trying very hard to erode democracy. Just in case they're wrong.
Neither is a long-term winning strategy.
Jill
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
While I agree that a person's
While I agree that a person's natural fitness and build etc give them an advantage. Sports can never be "fair" as we are all different.
If you carry that on, why have men's and women's sports?
Some women are fitter and faster than some men. When you look at the top 5% probably(this is a guess) most of the 5% of men, are faster than the fastest woman.
Leeanna
Another way to look at it
I don't think that it is possible to admit trans women to women's sports events for the reasons you give. That doesn't help trans women, though: perhaps the problem ought to be looked at another way.
'Trans' women who still have penises: definitely not allowed! They still have the testosterone that normal men have so the advantage will always be there.
However, there will be a group of trans women who have had the operation, and having that operation has important consequences. What they have had done to them would be, in various administrations and without their complete agreement, considered to be Grevious Bodily Harm or the local equivalent. It is in effect no different than losing an eye, an arm or a leg.
Now people who have lost body parts through war, accident or misadventure can often lead reasonable lives such that few people notice their disability at all. This is exactly the same situation as trans women living their lives as normal women (or vice versa). Those people also get to compete in sporting events.
The answer could be, therefore, to make 'trans' a category at para games instead of forcing them to compete with able-bodied people who have had no operations. That way, they would be able to compete like against like and there should be many fewer complaints.
Penny
Separate events
Impractical.
The number who would willingly out themselves (yes I firmly believe it should never come to the point of needing to be outed to the public as long as they meet the criteria to compete) and the vanishingly small number of elite trans athletes who can compete at such a high level is vanishingly small.
It takes money to have separate events and even then we have trans athletes who are essentially women due to not having gone through male puberty. So, what now, we have to subdivide the competition even further into two subcategories?
No, I think the current system of meeting reasonable physical standards, even with some warts, is fair enough.
Accuser and accusee
All too often, in this sort of situation, there is an unpleasant suspicion that the accuser is making the accusation for personal benefit (i.e "I would have won XYZ but for that fake woman").
I wonder how many complaints there would be if both accuser and accusee were banned for identical periods? This is not a solution, but a thought experiment that might suggest possible directions to move.
Yet...
Women and Men do compete directly against each other in one Olympic Sport... Equestrian (Dressage, Show Jumping and 3-Day eventing)
Samantha
there are
mixed team events at the highest level of cycling now and in amateur cycling most events are open to all and whilst there are usually age/gender based prizes its tilted towards the women as they are eligible for any prize they are eligible for whereas the men are not. Ha, i hear some say, the women have no chance because of XYZ but in truth it is not unknown for top women to better the men especially in endurance events.
Clearly there are some sports events where there could be a physical advantage but its not exactly common for an elite athlete to be trans and on the whole they have transitioned after their sporting career has ended. And to be honest most of us don't care given our chances of getting close to any prize list (okay, i have won a bit over the years, i'll admit but @ 95% of competitors never will).
Personally i'm against anything that further marginalises the trans community, most of us just want to live our lives, we don't want or should be 'outed' just so we can pursue our hobbies. Maybe we should push to ban all sexual deviants from sport? well thats most of the England ladies football team out for starters, no Tom Daley etc, etc, and of course we could extend this to the arts and so on until there is no one left to hate but of course there always will be, the wrong nationality, colour, religion, as a species we seem fixated on abhoring anyone who isn't 'one of us'.
But back to the thread, gender equality has been a one way street in favour of those with XX, no more men only clubs, no bar (in theory at least) in the jobs market, succesion etc, etc. At the same time there has been a rise in XX only clubs, activities from which the XY population are excluded (for example the Breeze women only sessions that British Cycling run) - talk about have your cake and eat it. I'm all for equality but it has to be for all and not just when it suits you.
Well i'm gonna get back to kicking some arse on two wheels, there's no prizes, i'm competing against me and for that i don't need anyone elses permission - yet!
Madeline Anafrid Bell
As Much as We Want, Can't Have it All
How many times do transgender winning in women's sports need to happen for everyone to understand trans do not belong in genetic female sports. It's not an ego trip, it's sports and for those competing in women's sports there is a classic line here on BCTS that fits perfectly. "It's not about you."
She was attacked physically and verbally for speaking out against trans women in women's sports.
Riley Gaines rejects SFSU's statement suggesting students protested 'peacefully': 'I was assaulted'
Is one's hold on their female identity so weak they have to physically and verbally attack others who don't agree? Does confirmation one is female have to be agreed to by others? If their hold on their gender is so weak they need others to constantly agree, they made the wrong decisions in life.
All my life I believed females were the strongest of the sex. We have real strength where it counts. It's why females are nurses, mothers, care takers. Kiss an owie and make it better with a kiss, make nightmares scurry for cover, make a meal from scratch. Fetch and carry parts, tools, equipment, seed, fertilizer, and drive the huge equipment when help doesn't show up. They carry a life for nine months and watch that life grow into a young woman or man. In the Civil War, WWI and WWII women were taking care of the wounded, the dying, and even carrying arms when needed. In Ukraine they are beside the men in the trenches saving their nation from Putin and the Russians. So many things a woman does gets never mentioned. They accept their role as a mother, wife, cook, homemaker and so many other jobs and positions and never get thanks or praise as men believe "it's a woman's job".
All those believe they belong in women's sports, maybe they should take on the full role as a woman not just the easy part. For those who are trans and believe they have a right to perform in women's sports? Sorry girls but you haven't got a clue to what it's like being a woman. You're an embarrassment to women, men, and transgender who know a real woman is more than physical. It's her heart, her soul, her complete being. She can kiss an owie and cure a hurt or defend those she loves or her nation. She's stronger than any male but most will never know nor understand. It's a hidden strength.
Love you Leeanna
Barb
If Jesus hadn't paid for my sins, I'd never stand before my Father. I failed Him and Jesus.
Oklahoma born and raised cowgirl
Women and Transmen in sports...
Hello: I see two problems with men in women's sports. As a libertarian, I believe that they should, however, I can see that a body that went through male puberty will give the advantage to the male, since their muscle mass is bigger along with bigger bones. A male will be stronger, so if you have two weightlifters, a male and a female, the male is going to be stronger.
That said, as a libertarian, I believe that youth, high school and college sports should create a division for TG athletes, and it shouldn't be mandated by the states, but by the schools. My friends think this issue will ruin girl's sports, I think records will fall by them, the NCAA women's track record is broken by a trans, so is the record for women's swimming. Weightlifting is another one that was broken.
It is a problem and I'm not sure how to address it, but I doubt politicians on both sides can't either.
TGSine --958
Inequality.
Genetic women are smaller, with less bone density and a plethora of other differences. Early transition and hormones does not do it all.
Gwen
Source?
I would like the relevant links to what you claim.
There may be some difference but I bet there is enough overlap between the two groups to make it irrelevant.
In this case, why not kick out cisgendered females who have above average bone density and are a lot bigger than the other girls then? Or who have above average lung capacity? Or any of the other excuses that are oh so cherry picked without telling the whole story.
There may be a difference but is that a significant difference.
BTW, in the case of what you describe then trans athletes should be permitted to compete in womens' gymnastics since cisgendered women being smaller (or so you claim) they do have the advantage in flexibility and smaller feet make them far better on balance beams, certain spins and movements and so on and so forth.
The thing is Kimmie it is not
The thing is Kimmie it is not the competing it is when a trans athlete wins anything the S*&t hit the fan,
I would have agreed about Gymnastics until I saw this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvz3F4HP170
Olympic Champions React to MEN DOING WOMENS GYMNASTICS
Leeanna
Not just winning
It’s not just winning and it’s not even just elite levels. If a trans woman comes 5th in an amateur, club level golf tournament then she has pushed other women down a place and those who come 6th or lower _will_ feel cheated and it’s difficult to argue with their feelings.
I’ve gone into this in more depth in the other trans sports thread, but it bears repetition I think.
Don’t we have more than enough enemies? I don’t want any more.
It’s much worse in the US now of course. There is an event in Florida that I have attended in the past. I haven’t been in the last 6 years, and I won’t go now because of Florida laws. I just don’t want the grief and humiliation of being chased out of hotel toilets.
All you do by giving into the haters' demands
is justify them pushing you even further, until you're either following their status quo or you're dead... and no, I don't think they'd prefer the former over the latter.
People feel cheated by sports all the time. Competitive sports are inherently unfair and inequal, otherwise everyone would play them. If you don't think so, just ask the 4'11" tall, 90 lb football fan who's never gotten to play at all.
Melanie E.
Haters?
I don’t feel that I’ve given in to anyone’s demands. I was a high level athlete and, if I had competed as a woman, I would without doubt have been higher placed than I was before. My male puberty did give me an advantage, and I walked away out of respect to female competitors. I also did not want the attacks I would have received, particularly as they would have been deserved.
I wish things had been different, but they weren’t and sometimes that’s life.
Transwomen as an open target in sport
Funny thing is it can be in any kind of 'sport' that somehow a transwomen who wins is considered 'unfair'.
Even in snooker.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11167231/Female-sno...
So, what is that magical advantage that a transwoman would have in what is essentially pool?
So in a nutshell, the woman who lost say she lost because women are wired differently whereas the transcommunity I believe have the consensus that transwomen have the mental processes of women else where would the dysphoria come from?
We are a target no matter what so f**k em.
I think a similar thing
I think a similar thing happened in darts. Spatial awareness they said? Funny how women are just the same and just as good as men and can do anything as well as men, or the feminists tell us. Then a trans woman wins something and they scream about "advantage"
Leeanna
Let's Get This Into Proportion
While there may be some argument over the statistics it is generally accepted transfolk form about 1% or less of the population. That means that in competitive sports only about 20% of them will qualify age-wise. I suspect that 80% of those are more interested in just being female rather than being the best athlete in whatever sport they may have an interest. That means that the chances of a female-born athlete competing against a TG athlete are about 1 in 500.
Just because the trans-girl is competing doesn't mean she is going to win. she still has to excel at her chosen sport to win. Let's assume that one trans-girl in 20 is good enough to out-compete the rest of the field. That leads to one natal-born girl in 10,000 being "disadvantaged" by a transperson.
The trans-girl must have some or all of the attributes of the male to achieve this, plus the talent and ability to excel. It seems obvious that the bans being inflicted on TG people are political rather than sincere or evidence-based. Yes, there will be a few cases where female athletes are disadvantaged but no more than swimmers were disadvantaged by a competitor with size 17 feet like Ian Thorpe.
However, I am bitterly disappointed that I will not be allowed to be one of the Australian Women's Projectile Vomiting team at the next Olympics. That's not fair!
Sex-separated sports are already a stupid notion to begin with.
People like to point out numbers here and numbers there that seem -- SEEM -- to back up men being better athletes in X sport or women in Y, but those numbers often ignore other important metrics, like time and funding of programs.
You look at what women are doing in professional leagues, they're outperforming male pros from 20 years ago in a lot of sports despite them having less funding and often far, far younger leagues in general, and when girls and women have been not only allowed but all-out supported in competing with men directly, they've generally proven themselves to be more than adequate challenge for their male contemporaries.
When you're looking at athletes -- male or female -- you're already looking at the top half or less percent of all people period. It's not your average man, woman, boy, girl, or nonbinary person who makes it to professional sports in the first place -- it's always people who have some kind of either innate advantage, or the drive to make it work.
You pick the right woman and give her the same level of training for the same amount of time with the same level of funding as you give the right man in a sport, and that woman will be able to compete with that man. Will their strengths and weaknesses be the same? Of course not... but then again, the same could be said for two men, or two women, or two sexless lumps of meat with no gender identity whatsoever.
If you're going to say that one thing or another is an unfair genetic advantage in some way... then you shouldn't be looking at sex as the deciding factor for sports teams, or at least not the only one. Insist on separating by morphology while you're at it, since endomorph versus ectomorph versus mesimorph makes more difference for most sports. Or height, since a lot of sports will favor taller or shorter athletes, or athletes with longer arms, or better muscle/weight ratios, or any other metric that actually directly correlates to innate athletic advantage.
You wanna use bone density? Measure the density of all athletes and insist that leagues are kept fair across the board. T levels? There are undoubtedly genetic women with higher T levels than a teenage transgirl. Hell, there will be genetic girls with higher T levels than a teenage transBOY more often than not. And what about measuring the T levels of all the male athletes to make sure they're all getting the same dose of vitamin male too?
This is honestly why I hate competitive sports. There are a lot of good things that can be taught via sports, and they can be entertaining, but the moment people decide that the point of them is about winning and not about the teamwork/cooperation/community building, is when you start seeing peoples' attitudes turn toxic.
Boy, girl, nonbinary, whatever... if they wanna play, let them play. If you're more concerned about making sure one person or another will be the winner than you are about whether the athletes themselves are all enjoying the game -- worse yet, if you're teaching or telling the players that what's important is winning rather than giving your all and constantly pushing to improve yourself -- then the problem isn't with the athletes' hormones.
Melanie E.
For the bone obsessed.
Please don't respond to this comment, I don't want to fan the flames of this any more for now, it is just so tiring.
But here is an interesting link: https://www.mayoclinic.org/medical-professionals/endocrinolo...
The real interesting bits are in the last third or so of the article imho.