Off topic and not too dumb, I hope?

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I just saw that a woman is using a junk 747 airplane to build a house. Why on earth would they junk a 747? I thought those things last a long time? "I don't understand" seems to becomming my mantra. :)

Gwendolyn

Comments

First flew in 1969

Well the 747 first flew in 1969 so some of the early ones would be 39 years old now. There must be a point where keeping an ageing plane airworthy is no longer cost-effective, especially if it has suffered any serious damage.

fly me to the moon ..............

Gwen

The 747 first flew commercially in 1970, So the oldest would be 38 years old.

And I bet there's not many more than 20 years old still airworthy.So I'm not surprised that someone is building a house outta one.

This is as I know it to the best of my knowledge.

Sam

Davis-Monthan AFB

In the Tuscon Arizona area, around Davis-Monthan AFB, is what is probably the world's largest fleet of aircraft. Stored in the dry desert conditions are thousands of military and civilian aircraft, some flown directly from the manufacturer to the desert for storage. The aircraft are sent there for a variety of reasons, but eventually most or all will be chopped up for scrap metal. As long as there was no intent to fly the plane, a stripped fuselage of a civilian aircraft could probably be bought for the cost of the metal and transportation.

As a practical matter, todays pressurized aircraft have a finite life, after which the metal fatigue makes the structure unsafe. Remember the Hawaiian Airlines 737 that the top ripped off in flight? The repeated pressurizing and depressurizing flexed the metal of the fuselage and it eventually failed, far sooner than anybody expected at the time. And that was part of the MD-80 (old DC-9) grounding last year, for inspection of metal cracks that could cause an "incident". This was not a problem with the older, non-pressurized airplanes, like the venerable DC-3/C-47 "Gooney Bird". But even these aircraft are still subject to metal fatigue and must be certified for flight annually.

Karen J.

"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather


"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin

The "Aloha Airlines Convertable"...

... Yes, sick gallows humor, but that's what it got called more then many people like. Well, that incident, and several others that were less dramatic, triggered congress to request the FAA review the "aging" US air fleet (back in the late '80s). Since that time, my understanding is that most (US) carriers have much NEWER average ages on their aircraft. As Karen indicated though, issues still crop up.

I only know of one aircraft who's structure didn't suffer from metal fatigue... But, it only had a crew of two... And they were VERY expensive to make.

Annette

Wheeeeee!!

laika's picture

It's kind of good to get older planes out of the sky.
Metal fatigue is something that can announce itself quite dramatically.
Like in Hawaii back in 1988, when a 737 turned into a convertible in midflight:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Aloha_Flight_243

Michael Chrichton wrote a whole novel about the issue.
I seem to recall it was called AIRPLANE but that can't be right.

It sounds like a very neat house, though to me it's just nuts to build a $2,000,000
home at the top of a hill in the manzanita-choked wildfire country of Malibu CA.
~~~hugs, Laika

.
"Government will only recognize 2 genders, male + female,
as assigned at birth-" (In his own words:)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1lugbpMKDU

More than you wanted to know!

At least a few aviation enthusiasts here! Laika, the link you gave (thanks, BTW) was slightly off, the corrected link is below. Anyway, it mentions the novel "Airframe", which may be the one you were thinking of.

I saw the made for TV movie of this incident, and it's still amazing that only one life was lost, that of Flight Atendent Clarabelle "C.B." Lansing. Remember her when you are tempted to think of flight attendants as glamourized waitresses.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aloha_Flight_243 Corrected Link

KJT

"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather


"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin

Metal fatigue in aircraft ...

... first came dramatically to light with the world's first jet airliner the De Haviland Comet. The early Comets had square windows which generated stress points and ultimate fuselage failure. It was a tragic way to learn about potential failure as several aircraft were lost before the cause was discovered.

In 1989 I flew in a 707 from Dakar (Bangla Desh) to Kathmandu and back. I wasn't entirely comfortable flying between the Himalayan peaks in such an old aeroplane. I just hoped the pilot/navigator was flying up the right valley as I'm sure the fuselage's integrity might well have been compromised had we climbed high enough to clear the mountains :) Still we and our bikes survived and we lived to enjoy the tour.

Perhaps the most famous book about metal fatigue is Neville Shute's 'No Highway' which was filmed with (IIRC) Michael Redgrave as the engineer/designer who realises the problem. In real life Neville Shute was an aeronautical engineer who was involved with both airships (with Barnes-Wallis) and aeroplanes (with Airspeed) in the UK, so he knew what he was writing about.

Geoff

On the Beach

Nevil Shute was a very fine author. I read his 'On the Beach' some years ago. It was an excellent story, but the story could have used a better editor when written. Shute's descriptions came off awkwardly at times. An example- I believe he used the word 'it' when referring to a baby girl.

Daniel, author of maid, whore, bimbo, and sissy free TG fiction since 2000

What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.- Oscar Levant

2nd worst aviation disaster

Happened after a 747 had structural failure in mid flight due to a poorly performed repair. Japan Air Flight 123 crashed into a mountain in 1985 killing over 500 people, with just four people surviving. The real pressurized bulkhead in the plane failing, and this resulting in a loss of hydraulics. The pilots fought bravely for almost an hour to keep the plane airborne, but ultimately lost the battle.

The American Airlines Flight 191 crash in Chicago which killed 273 people, was the result of metal fatigue after a engine on a DC 10 was removed in a improper fashion in order to undergo maintenance work. In Flight 191's case, an engine separated from the plane on take off, the pilots were unable to recover control of the aircraft.

I may be one of few TG fiction authors to portray a plane crash in one of their stories. My MAU- Collisions story re-told the crash of Korean Air 801 on Guam in 1997. 801 was a classic example of CFIT or Controlled flight into terrain.

Daniel, author of maid, whore, bimbo, and sissy free TG fiction since 2000

What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.- Oscar Levant

Remember the Constellation?

In 1966; September I think I rode a Connie from Anchorage Alaska to Fairbanks. I felt so priveleged to get to fly on one of those. IMHO, it is the most photogenic airplane ever made.

While she was extremely dignified, we still had to go back to the hangar to "change an engine" when it failed the run up test at the end of the runway. It only took an hour and we were on our way.

I was so thrilled because we flew around that big mountain up there and then the pilot did a real wing over to drop through a hole in the clouds to land at Fairbanks! I wonder if there are still any of them in service?

Many blessings

Gwendolyn

Restoration

I read something a year or two ago about a group restoring one. As I recall, TWA was a big operator of the Connie, and it was a TWA employee group helping do the restoration. Yes, they were a beautiful airplane.

KJT

"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather


"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin

Aircraft types

It's wandering off topic, but having read the previous posts, I started thinking about all the different aircraft I've flown in as a passenger. Taking a deep breath they are;

De Havilland Rapide
Auster AOP 6
Auster AOP 9
Bristol Sycamore
Bell 47G
Westland Scout
Vickers Viscount
Vickers Vanguard
BAC 111
Super Constellation
Britten-Norman Islander
Boeing 767
De Havilland Comet 4
Fokker Friendship
Airbus ( I forget which model )

That's all that springs to mind at the moment, but I'm sure that there are one or two more.

I would be interested to know if anyone else has experience of types other than the usual airline aircraft.

Following Geoffs' comments about Neville Shute, he was a superb writer of novels, of which the two most well known are ' A Town like Alice ' and 'On the Beach '. Although he mainly wrote of a different era, 30's, 40's and 50's, his clarity of writing, use of English and development of characters and stories would still serve as a guide to todays' writers. That is not a snide comment about the standards of writing on this site. He was a master of his craft,
from whom anyone could learn.

Regards,

Andy

Shute & AC Types

I read a lot of Shute's novels whilst overseas, as they were quite popular. While many know "On The Beach", I thought his best book was "Trustee From The Toolroom". A heart-touching story of the lengths a man will go to secure his niece's future after he becomes her guardian.

For aircraft I can add a few:

Bell 212
Bell Jet Ranger (ENG bird)
Boeing 707 (Several versions, including the single class stretch model flown by SAS, unfondly known as "The Cattle Car")
Boeing 727
Boeing 737
Boeing 747SP (a shortened version of the 747 designed for long range flights)
Cessna Skylane
Douglas DC-8
Douglas DC-9
Douglas/McDonnell Douglas DC-10/MD-11
Piper PA-28
Sikorsky S-61

Not a comprehensive list, but best my tired brain can do.

KJT

"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather


"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin

Some more to add to the list...

... of planes someone around here have flown in...

C-141
E-2C
SH-3
C-2
SH-46
CH-47
T-2
TA-4
T-39
C-9
H-53
DC-6
Lockheed L-1011
Embrarer (several models)

Some more, I can't recall ATM...

Some flights were more comfortable than others. :-)

Annette

The Super Connie was probably the most....

... famous of the "Hurricane Hunter" platforms. They made low level insertions into the eyes of Hurricanes (yes, right through the wall clouds and all that means) to make observations not to far from the center and lowest pressure point. Modern "hurricane hunter" craft (if there are still any of them around, I can't recall just now) made insertions at an altitude of approximatey 10k (~3km) feet.

Hurricane Hunters

Yes, there are still "Hurricane Hunters", different ac are flown by different agencies. The USAF flies the C-130 Hercules, and NOAA flies the P-3D and Gulfstreams. All aircraft are specially modified for the purpose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Hunters

KJT

"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather


"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin

I thought they were still around...

... but was too lazy to look it up. Even though they still exist. I very seriously doubt they are doing the low level insertions of the early hunters in the super connies.

Annette

Dunno

I didn't follow the links to the mission profiles to see what they actual fly these days. I have read and heard about how they send the radiosonde probes into the storm to measure conditions all the way through the storms. I suspect that the vacuum tube tech that was in use at the time of the Super Connies didn't allow them to get that kind of accurate data unless they flew those low level insertions. IIRC, the video I saw about the probes put the cost apiece at several hundred thousand dollars, and that is for a one-shot use. But that's still cheaper than a WC-130J full of instruments and crew.

FWIW, the HF communications from the Hunter ac's can be monitored with a decent shortwave radio, the frequencies are available on the web.

Karen J.

"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather


"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin

Junker Explained

At some point in every aircrafts life there comes a time when metal fatique is so wide spread and patches have to overlap each other... that the safety inspector comes along and says... the engines are good, tires are good, this, that and the other thing can be reused... but the body has to be scrapped.

The plane is then flown one last time to an airport that does nothing more than store bits and shells of aircraft. The can never be certified for anything other than scrap. Unfortunately the alloys that aircraft frames are made of aren't easily recyclable. So they sit collecting dust and small animals.

Eventually they get around to salvaging the engines, fuel tanks, windows, etc... and then along comes a woman who actually wants one... they gladly sell it. She pays a team to disassemble it and trucks the bits she wants off to her building site and voila... house from a plane. Recycling is sometimes a high art.

Disagree

AFAIK, the alloys are not so exceptional that recycling them is difficult. I do know that the place in Arizona that stores, parts out, and recycles aircraft makes a very tidy profit from the sale of scrap metal alone. You won't find many large aircraft hulks sitting around the airports these days.

I saw where one large airplane was disassembled and moved across a city after it made an emergency landing at an airport from which it was unable to take off. It was on the news because it caused a major traffic jam when the fuselage was being hauled and got stuck by the driver of the towing truck in the middle of the city. The driver then abandoned the truck. I believe it happened in the Phillipines or the Far East somewhere. :-)

KJT

"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather


"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin

Confusion in Portland, Oregon

Portland can have the most awful, murky, foggy, wet, soggy weather, and one day a commercial pilot of a 707 dropped out of the clouds and landed at the suburban Troutdale airport, rather than at PDX with a full load of passengers. No one was hurt.

However, the passengers, seats, and baggage left on a bus, and the plane with a very minimal load of fuel and pilot was able to take off while sprinkling sand under the nose wheel on take off. The sand duped the aircraft into believing the end of the runway had come. :)

Another time in Portland, an aircraft sent on a go around, ran out of fuel and landed in the tops of 125 Ft Douglas fir trees about 3 miles from the runway. I think the death toll was like 3 people; just amazing.

Gwendolyn

Out of Gas

Gwendolyn,

United Flight 173 was the plane you're referring to. While the cockpit crew was busying itself with a landing gear problem, they lost sight of the fact they were running out of fuel. 10 people were killed in the crash. The plane's tanks were so dry, there wasn't the usual post plane crash fires.

Daniel, author of maid, whore, bimbo, and sissy free TG fiction since 2000

What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.- Oscar Levant

Aircraft Aluminum Alloys Difficult to recycle

After you disagreed with me. I set out to find out more about aircraft recycling.

While more modern aircraft are made from easier to recycle aluminum alloys... older aircraft are not.

Here is a URL about aircraft recycling. Googling for Aerospace Aluminum Recycling gets you all kinds of sites that talk about new materials, and difficulties with older alloys.

ps. If you google in their maps... there are dozens of air craft "bone yards" or "grave yards"

Dayna.

http://news.cnet.com/2300-13838_3-6225612-1.html?tag=ne.gall.pg I Included this site not to prove my point... but to display all the nice pictures.

Cool photos

I had some limks once to the area around Tuscon, which is of course not the only location where aircraft are stored but arguably the largest, but I couldn't find them today. I'll try and file this link a little better.

And for one of the more useful conversions of a 747, take a look at this one that has been converted into a fire bomber!

http://www.evergreenaviation.com/supertanker/whyst.html

KJT

"Being a girl is wonderful and to torture someone into that would be like the exact opposite of what it's like. I don’t know how anyone could act that way." College Girl - poetheather


"Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.”
George Carlin

True, but the US Air Force

The US Air Force plans, or at least, planned, to keep the B52, a plane that first flew Tuesday, April 15, 1952, less than 50 years after the Wright Brothers first flight, in service till around 2025, 73 years after that date. Those would be refurbished B52H models, the only version still flying. Get this, The last production aircraft, B-52H number 61-0040, left the factory on 26 October 1962 so let's see, 2025-1963 = 62 years! And that will be the YOUNGEST of them.

The P3s that I flew in the US Navy, first flew as the Lockheed L188 Electra passenger plane. First flight, Dec 6, 1957.
As the Navy P3A, it first flew November 1959, and went into service in August 1962, and the last production plane a P3C, came off the line in April 1990. At that tie the navy intended to keep it in service until about 2040, but plans have changed, and it will be replaced by the Boeing P8, ( a modified 737 ) which will begin to replace the P3 in 2013 but will not complete the replacement until around 2020. All versions beyond P3C appear to have been modifications of the P3C, or a designation for a version built for sale to other countries, or specially built variants. Or at least, all aircraft currently in service in the USN are P3Cs.
In Dec 2007, the average age of P-3C aircraft was 28 years, the oldest aircraft was 44 years old, and the youngest was 17 years old. So maybe, some will be in use as long as 57 years, but the youngest will have been around for at least 30 years.
( and that doesn't count some that are in use in other countries, or in non- USN usage, such as hurricane hunters, aerial tankers, etc.)

So at least inn the military, it sounds as if metal fatigue, while a problem ( 39 P3Cs were grounded last year, for refurbishment for that reason ) is not a death blow very early. "We are acting early, based upon engineering analysis and fleet inspections, to ground these aircraft before a problem arises."

As for the woman using one for a house, I guess the biggest problem would be getting it to her site. It is too big to move on the highway, though it could, with a lot of permits, cross a highway. It would surely be too expensive to cut one up small enough to move it on a highway,m and then reassemble it

Most of a 747 is on display at a museum near San Francisco, at an airfield far too small to land one, but it is nest to San Francisco bay, where it could be moved a few miles by barge to the edge of the airfield, from San Francisco International.

Holly

One of the most difficult things to give away is kindness.
It usually comes back to you.

Holly

I Poked Around a Bit on the Web

It's the 747-200's that are being put out to pasture. Newer versions are bigger and more efficient to operate. It sounds like there are more of the older 747's than there are companies that need them. A gutted but complete structural hulk is about $100K. The plan is to use the wing for the Roof of the house and to incorporate other elements such as the cockpit. The cost of the airplane is just a drop in the bucket relative to the cost of the planned house. A Yahoo search on "747 house california" provided way more information than I wanted.

Interesting

article Gwen! Oh I searched and found this. Is this the one you saw? http://www.mensvogue.com/design/articles/2007/06/david_hertz What I liked about it was the reason he chose to use a plane was he was seeking to add feminine curves to his design. Later he decided to try and use as much of the aircraft as he could. Apparently most of his designs tend to be masculine with lots of angles and sharp edges. (Not my opinion but that from the article.) So in a way this is on tropic, kinda!

hugs!

grover

Not Onty Houses

I saw where somebody in California had taken a retired jet liner and converted it into a mobile home. They now travel in it and enter it in area car conventions.
May Your Light Forever Shine

    Stanman
May Your Light Forever Shine

Motels too

I remember watching a program about a man who converted a bunch of DC types into cabins on this lake shore resort. he himself lived in the biggest one... and had a bunch of smaller ones for people to rent.

Dayna.

Scrapping airframes

There is a service that converts scrapped airframes into homes. It puts the airframe on a pedestal that allows it to rotate freely with the wind. All the plumbing and wiring is run through the pedestal using special bushings, brushes, and the like. I saw some nice photos of one home that had the pedestal set in a lake.

There are several advantages to using scrapped airframes (with the wings bobbed.) They are totally airtight/watertight and are capable of withstanding winds well in excess hurricane velocities. They only have to be anchored at one point, which reduces the complexity of the foundation and also makes it easier on the environment. Also, you can't beat the view or the coolness factor.

Back in engineering school, I learned something interesting about aluminum versus steel when subjected to repetative stress.

In all metals, if you bend it to the yield point (the point where it won't spring back on its own,) the metal will fatigue. Repeated stressing will cause the metal to break. This is called metal fatigue.

Researchers have plotted the curves for most metals. That is, they compare the stress (as a percentage of yield stress) with the number of repetations needed to break the material. The curve for steel flattens out -- which means that if you design a steel part that is only stressed to a small fraction of its yield stress, it will never fatigue.

The curve for aluminum doesn't flatten out. No matter how nice you try to be to your part, it will eventually break. Of course, overbuilding it by a large factor will allow it to last for a long, long time. Unfortunately, you can't do that with an airframe and expect it to be able to get off of the ground.

The end result is that aluminum airframes have a limited lifespan. Period. No matter how well you take care of them or try to keep them repaired. If you use the airframe, it will eventually break.

Fortunately for those who like the coolness of an airframe home, the airframe will work well for a stationary house long after it is unsafe to fly.

Ray Drouillard, geek at large

Nice Explanation of the Stress vs Strain Curve...

and aluminum's properties. I thought about making a similar comment yesterday, but couldn't decide how to explain it and not sound too geeky, but this whole topic has gotten so geeky that it's fully appropriate now.

As a group we tend to dive in. Other recent examples are computer security and motorcycles. It's kind of cool really.

It IS fascinating :)

erin's picture

It's also something writers seem to do when they aren't writing. And even people who don't write but really enjoy reading. I've noticed it before.

Hugs,
Erin

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.

= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.