We all should have the right to live how we want.
Yet, a developing or adult male walks the streets dressed as a female. A mother and child notice, the child stares on confused and maybe even distressed. The crossdressed male is likely made to feel uncomfortable among other things.
It is one thing to culture an expected response to such a spectacle, it is another, an impossibility for the spectacle to be anything other than that. To bypass, often such polarized gender signals on a single body, is to bypass gender distinction altogether, to cease to live. I am sick of deluded expectations promoted, such extreme naivety, perhaps it is just the unintelligent wishful character of tg community and its fiction.
Also the rediculous cliche in the fiction itself, somehow justafiable to be repeated over and over again! Might it be that people don't understand they're fetish deeper than the representative scenarios autonomously co-evolved alongside the eventual community which we have now???
Hunh?
I'm sorry... but are you saying, 'nobody can ever pass as other than their birth sex, and trying to describe such an event is wrong'?
Or are you saying, 'Fiction must be realistic'?
*Please*... eschew obfuscation!
Michelle
Or...
...Grice may smack you one with a big, heavy maxim. ^__^
-Liz
-Liz
Successor to the LToC
Formerly known as "momonoimoto"
Hi,
Are you also Jaime Ann, who posted as Out of the Closet in '07?
So, what is a developing or adult male? Prepubery, most boys would be passable as girls if fed the right blockers and hormones. Many would be passable as young girls with no hormones. Passing, if I may use the term, means no spectacle. No one sees the boy in girls clothes, only a girl. This is not fiction, it is reality. Happens all the time (somewhere in the world). Yes, I know we're rare. We'd probably be less rare if there weren't a huge taboo, with heavy repression, of males showing some femininity. The repression is lessening; parents are more informed and caring about their children. There are now more TG kids seen in the media.
There are very numerous adult TG or TS "men" who can pass as wimyn with the right clothes, hair and make-up; even some who just have to grow their hair and are seen as wimyn.
Showing distinct male and female characteristic on the same body used to be called "gender fuck". Such people intend to make a spectacle. I certainly could be wrong, but I can't recall even seeing one story about gender fuck people on this site.
I was 6' tall, quite athletic, first boat (best 8 rowers) on the MIT Varsity Lightweight Crew, graduated in '71. I started living full time in 1991. I was legally male, even though my mind was female. I was probably my prettiest pre-op. Post op and on hormones 15 months, I found that I had shrunk to a measily 5' 11".
Most of the stories on this site are fiction. Some are very realistic and some aren't. You can go to other sites and read actual TS autobiographies. many of those are probably very realistic.
You seem to be plagued by the paradigm that there are only people of either one or the other distinct sex. Only male and female, and that gender fluidity is delusional. Although that has been the paradigm of the dominant culture (and mostly still is), with all kinds of enforcement there of, it is false medically, psychologically, anthropologically, etc.
Much of the fiction is cliche'd and most readers realized that. If they mind then they don't read that story. Otherwise I don't understand your last paragraph.
Hugs and Bright Blessings,
Renee
Ready for work, 1992.
Hugs and Bright Blessings,
Renee
A few years ago. . .
. . .a similar statement was made on the FM board. In response I wrote that person into a story.
http://bigclosetr.us/topshelf/fiction/572/exitus-acta-probat...
I'm a large person. Yet, I've been mistaken for a women many times, by youngsters as well as older people.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
trying to be clever?
You need to work on the speling and grammar. Or maybe you're trying to pick a fight, not sure. Some of your word choices are decidedly confrontational. I may not be a supermodel, but I get by. I like to think I'm not delusional or overly naive or exceptionally unintelligent. Nor am I fetishistic.... but perhaps I have it all wrong, sarcasm, sorry. Ah but yes I do get 'picked' now and then so some truth is out there.
There's likey dozens of people that visit this place that prove your statements wrong just by living and being. So what's it all about Wixellup old son?
Kristina
I wish the wizard was real.
I wish the wizard was real. I wish I could meet him. Until I meet him, I'll treat everyone I meet the way they wish to be treated. If they wear skirts, I'll say "Hello Miss", if they wear trousers, I'll say "Hello Mister". And if they are wearing a kilt... I'll say "Donald, Where's Your Trousers?"
Some days you're the pigeon, some days you're the statue
Perhaps a statement rather than some questions.
I have a master's degree in Psychology and I struggled to discern exactly what you were trying to hint at. I gathered, perhaps erroneously, that the cross dresser cannot be a legitimate expression of the trans-gender experience? I can't speak for others, although I've talked about this with my sisters here; if gender truly is mostly a psychological construct, as many believe, wouldn't the cross-dresser's appearance and expression be just as acceptable and reasonable as a post-operative mtf transsexual or a genetically-born woman? My therapist, who has two doctorates in Psychology and a Master's Degree in Behavioral Health, might tend to side with me when I say, perhaps for more than a few here, that it's entirely reasonable to enjoy the transcendence from our normal lives to the "fantasy' of fiction that portrays our hopes and our dreams. Trans-gender fiction is no more cliched than a novel or a book about Home Improvement, since it lets the reader go somewhere safe or useful. It's been said that cynicism is born out of a hurt and loss of innocence. If I'm naive to think that God provided another part of me to give my dreams flight and to encourage others, then I guess I'm happily deluded.
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Possa Dio riccamente vi benedica, tutto il mio amore, Andrea
Love, Andrea Lena
Well said, Andrea
Like many here I expect, I read this and was at a loss as to what was being said and how to respond. But you seem to have deciphered the meaning and formulated a good responce that was logical and clear. (Except for the last bit, which was greek to me. And no, in spite of my monicker, I don't speak Greek.)
Thanks for speaking up!
I went outside once. The graphics weren' that great.
The last bit....
...in the last few months, I have been encouraged by a few folks including my therapist to get in touch with my Sicilian roots, sort of a redemptive process. The sentence in Italian underneath my icon says, "May my God richly bless you, I love you all, Andrea." While I plan on including more depending upon the context of a story, I have planned to change what has become a motto for me. And as far as your name goes, I suppose you might win an argument or to since you'll always have the last word, yes?
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Possa Dio riccamente vi benedica, tutto il mio amore, Andrea
Love, Andrea Lena
"The Rain in Spain. . . .
So concise! ". . .God provided another part of me to give my dreams flight and encourage others. . . ."
We constaantly trip over the mundane value of passing, when we should be delighted simply to embrace another facet of our spirit.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
a response
WOW, I didn't expect much of a response, hello everyone!
No the last thing i want todo is fight and ofcourse I could be wrong. There are things I would like to see acknowledged and changed within the community, everyone is the same in that respect to an extent. There is diversity among this community as there is in community in general. I am not too interested in spelling/grammar, as long as the general content is understood and it doesn't, for example undermine the illusion of a great story!
Providing that there is two sexes(and overcoding the variants), a necessary prejudice is in turn, prehumanly equilibriated. Or put differently, given two sexes, evolutionary theory entails the vast majority will hold to exclusive presubjective gender signification. This precedes cultural reaction, and despite most reactions, I (and others) will always have to contend with the likely tragic spectacle/passing scenario. The point is that alot of people seem to give the impression that this uncontrollable prejudice can be totally overcome and if incorrect could show to be harmful to base value upon.
I think the passion in the opening message was directed a little bluntly. Has there been such a discussion or distinction before between the fetisists and the transgendered here? The two terms are generalisations and possibly overlap among other things, I'd expect variation. Me, personally sometimes I can feel very feminine, but predominantly my relation to the community centres around a "getting off" or "fetishism". I think perhaps in childhood, a result of the ego having to deal with attacks on a valued masculinity (whether or not I felt particularly feminine beforehand) and a defence mechanism later fetishising the scenario(s).
No, I don't know of a Jaime Ann, is it interesting?
yes, I am all for escapism, but I sure would like our fiction to be be shaken up in one way or another! A total release from cliche is impossible, but creativity and critique should have a value.
Andrea, I think it likely has been your power alone to become so all along, such a thing is beautiful!
I would like to ask some questions myself...
...you speak of fiction expressed in cliches. Perhaps, but you don't define any specifics and your main objection seems to be that there are too many cliches in this genre. My question is, if you are disappointed in the manner or mode of expression, what would you want to supplement or replace the cliches. And as I read the stories here, I see a vast array of fiction expressed in various combinations; fantasy mixed with pathos, horror with humor, my own fiction is almost completely auto-biographical, and while the genre may not be very popular, I rather think that recovery from sexual abuse as a child could hardly be considered cliche. Do you write? A very good way of obtaining the goal of broadening the expression of tg fiction would be to write what you want to read. We have authors here who write exclusively in one sub-genre and we also have others that write all sorts of different approaches. What would you like to see change and how would you go about it. I'm not saying you should write, merely that if there's a disappointment, there's always a specific accompanying expectation. Perhaps met by an author here, but we'll never know just what if it's defined as "not that" as opposed to "I'd like to see...."
I apologize if I am misreading you, but you seem to project your own feelings regarding fetishism onto the transgendered community, at least in part. I would like to know how you came to the conclusion that the two terms overlap...transgendered is perhaps a broader term that may be used to define an entire community or lifestyle which is hardly the same as an expression that is likely to be considered by most to be more of a sub-culture within the broader community. Nothing wrong with preferring or disdaining that expression, but to say the two are nearly equal?
I didn't quite understand your last statement. "It has been your power alone." If you are implying that there is no place for God in this entire equation, I wholly disagree. Even as I consider everything within my being that is good to be a gift from God, I consider all the unique aspects of my personality, including Andrea to be a gift from God as well. I would not presume to tell any other to accept that for themselves, but all of my work, even the darkest, most horrific and painful of the things I and others have endured, fiction or otherwise, are written in the broad context of a loving God who gave me not only my male self, but my female self as well.
I appreciate you writing back...your comments are, as some say, food for thought. At my age, I don't have the sense of taste I used to enjoy, so perhaps some labels on the jars would help me understand what I'm consuming. God bless and write again, dear one.
She was born for all the wrong reasons but grew up for all the right ones.
Possa Dio riccamente vi benedica, tutto il mio amore, Andrea
Love, Andrea Lena
Cliches
It is of course true that for the most part, we see the experiences of others through the tiny porthole of our own viewpoint. It can be very difficult to appreciate the problems of others who appear to be in a similar position to oneself but have very different histories. This site has been instrumental in opening my eyes to the riches - and the horrors - which our community carries.
One of the things I have noticed on other sites is that there is a tendency for a majority of authors to write only their own fantasies or experiences, and once they have put those down, however crudely, they dry up, having fulfilled a deep-seated need. I don't have a problem with that, since it can be part of the healing process. Inevitably, these stories are going to be influenced by the cliches which underlie all storytelling. It's not just tg fiction, you can look at any genre and find that they make heavy use of standard ideas related to the story type.
Now I like to think of myself as more than just such a person, so I am consciously trying to find ways of creating stories which broaden both my own scope and that of my readers. While I do that, I have to bear two things in mind: firstly, people come to this site expecting stories of a certain nature, and my stories will not get read if my readers are not in tune with my thinking, and secondly, it is a requirement of the site that stories have some sort of tg element in them. One has only to look at what gets published over the average fortnight to see that that gives any author huge scope for story setting and type.
I don't mind the odd cliche. Sometimes a story packed with cliches can be extremely funny, simply because we know and understand the cliches. Look at Noircoleptic if you want an example of cliches.
On another matter, is wxhluyp's first language something other than English (of any sort)? I must admit to finding it difficult to follow her arguments sometimes. I consider myself to have a good grasp of (the Queen's) English, but some of her word choices defeat me (wxhluyp's, that is, not the Queen's).
Penny
What lexicon are you utilizing?
Many people have expressed their views here and I have little to add in that regard. However, I find your usage of certain words and phrases to be rather specialized, if I may say so. While I've hopefully worried out the gist of what you are saying, I cannot help but wonder if you have been writing from the particular vantage of a jargon intensive discipline of which most of those reading here are not familiar. When you talk about overcoding the variants, you might simply say "take into account variations and outliers." If that is what you mean by that. If it isn't, then you have lost at least this reader. And when you use the term presubjective I want to pull my hair out! While some fields might use this term in a responsible way, I start gnashing my teeth at the techno-/socio-jargon. To the layperson, there is no such thing as presubjective, since we understand the term to mean thought occurring before a subjective viewpoint is reached (i.e. somewhere before we are born, as in no thought at all!) It takes us years and years to reach even a poor approximation of objective thought.
If you wish to communicate, you need to bring a common grammar and vocabulary to the table. Push the boundaries a bit, by all means. Just leave us with enough clues to understand what you are trying to say.
Thank you.
SuZie
SuZie
Bluntly put, you don't get it at all.
Sure there are T folk who are fetishistic and perhaps most C folk are. Maybe I was at the beginning. I hate labels.
So, whose business is it anyway? There are those of us who may never pass but so what.
For me I had to pass, or at least delude myself into thinking I passed. Myself, I think the largest un addressed issue with both C and T folk is the smile because in my opinion one who smiles and owns the world is going to be seen as much less of a threat than someone who walks around with the guilty, dear in the headlights look.
That friggen guilty, oh my God I am a pervert look will kill ya every time.
Khadijah
Still Lost
Having had my first comment dumped, I shall endeavor to tone down my rhetoric. I am still at a loss as to what the point of this blog entry is. Perhaps I am being dense, but I simply do not know what the bottom line is.
If the writer is concerned that there is not enough diversity in the way TGs are presented and portrayed in TG fiction, that I fear I must protest. TG fiction, as presented her on TopShelf runs the gambit.
If the concern is that the characters depicted do not match reality or are all fluff and fairy tale, I must protest. As others have, I go out of my way to recount my own experiences as well as those I have known or have read about through my characters. Many other authors do likewise.
If This posting is nothing more than a clarion call to produce better, more mainstream fiction, than I shout 'Hell Yes!'
I only wish I were smart enough to understand. Hopefully the author of this blog will be kind enough to give it another go and explain what her intentions were.
Nancy Cole
"You may be what you resolve to be."
T.J. Jackson
been a while
In my case the distinction between the generalisations “fetishists†and the “transgendered†is simply in usage of, for example fiction based sites. Mine being almost purely of sexual release (“fetishismâ€) and a transgender use in addressing many other desires including, transitioning, support, general communication, escapism etc. My quarrel is with fiction produced for sexual release, as I have little relation otherwise, let alone to have a problem with. (Though it is irritating that people often seem to deny or ignore that there will always be a social prejudice, even below conscious control, we must accept this and go from there. This thought is specifically aimed at those of us unfortunately, who are overtly masculine and wish or like to go out into public en femme).
The point is to strive to think of new ways to write. How do these contexts produce these feelings? I wonder whether there has ever been a competitive system for tg fiction within the community that functioned as a mainstream reference point? There seems to be an extremely loose convention or reference for stories that makes predominant cliché difficult to be recognized and overcome. Perhaps something like this would do some good?
I’m sorry; writing for long periods or late into the night seems to make my writing progressively idiosyncratic!
I am of a different set of beliefs my friend. We are all different; there is no feminine or masculine essence. A gratefulness to god also entails all our ungratefulness as well rendering either meaningless, unless there is an other-than god, to which god is then attributed a prejudice and prioritizing. Ah the anthropomorphism of the loving god... to love is to hate ;)
this kind of attitude
is why i have hate my body, why i cant go out in public in clothes that I feel comfortable and myself in, and why some people seem justified in deminishing me. The "norms" win, everytime. As for clishe, a good author can take an old idea and make it new again. I like to think I am trying to do the same with my stuff
You misunderstand
One of the things I tried to address was, other than the prejudice in something like organized intimidation (which society can rally against), recognition is itself prejudice and this must be accepted. Humanity and e.g. gender is indistinct, yet identity only exists through distinction.
"(The "norms" win, every time)" -This is what I'm against, its wrong to think in terms of winning or losing. Are the "norms" bigots or simply the non-transgendered? To win is to do away with the very possibility of prejudice, to end humanity.
I am not transgendered. I am a straight crossdresser. When dressing there is a longing to be petite, pretty, curvy, passive, girly, elegant and sexy. There is a conflict between how I look and how I'd like to look, and how others react and how I'd like them to react.