Discussion of Hormones

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I'd like to start a discussion of the use of various hormones. I have absolutely no experience with them since I'm not planning on going on hormones and I'd like information on estrogen/oestrogen/progesterone/testosterone blockers/chemical castration/puberty blockers and so on.

The only thing *I* know is that the Over the counter estrogen, Estroven can actually work when combined with an herbal testosterone blocker. I have a friend who has been doing this for the last year or so and she's got nice breasts although she still grows a beard.

So.... GO!

Comments

My personal experience

I'll try to sum it up as best as I can.

June 2006 - February 2009

I've been on Premarin and Aldactone, for estrogen and testosterone-blocker, respectively. The only thing of note was the instant and miraculous disappearance of my oily skin and all my acne. If it wouldn't chemically castrate my guy friends I would share all around ~_^

Very little changes except from that. The few black hairs I had on my chin (I didn't need to shave until I turned 21, and even then tweezers sufficed) turned white and much finer. No fat redistribution to speak of, except for AAA breasts. I'm not sure whether to blame the pills or my Mom for that (she spent most of her life being an A cup). Now I can't tell anymore because I had implants in June 2008.

February 2009 - presently

I switched from Premarin to Estrace, on the recommendation of both my Psychologist and my Doctor. Apparently it's more natural, less cancer-prone, all that fun stuff. Nothing changed much, except maybe I'm a little more prone to mood swings, but that's still up in the air, because of the massive stress that is final university exams and graduation and finding a job.

Hope that helped!


-Christelle

"Fun-loving geek-chick looking for someone who doesn't give a damn about her past"


-Christelle

"Fun-loving geek-chick who's addicted to sunlight!"

I have strong opionions on 'moans.

This all began in about 2003. Mine has been a pretty moderate approach. As soon as I figured out that I was transitioning, I started on Estradial, then later got some Spironolactone. Well to me the Spiro was just another pill, so I got Castrated, thus ending the need for that.

Since right after 9/11 I was on increasingly heavy doses of Welbutrin, Celexa and Trazadone for PTSD, Anxiety and Depression. It kept not working so they increased the dosages.

After SRS in August of 2007, they switched me to Patches called Vivelle dot. According to the Endocrinologist, it does the same thing and does not do long term damage to the Liver, Kidneys, and Heart. In two months, my breast size doubled, so I know the Estrodial was not doing much.

After SRS, I was almost 200lbs, and I threw a fit. On doing some research I found that it was the psych meds that were making me into a whale. I had started Transition at 150lbs, and people said I was like totally HOT in a mini skirt. I immediately began tapering off the Psych drugs. It took almost a year. I am below 180 now and plan to get back to 150.

I know that some have taken as high as 20 mg of Estrodial and in my opinion,that is totally wrong. All along, I have depended on a Endocrinologist with knowlege of T folk.

I have to tell you that I think a GP can be pretty dangerous if he is not careful.

Best wishes.

Gwendolyn

My HRT routine

I started with trying herbal means and wasn't seeing anything happening. In June of '07 I start self medicating with Estrofem I got from an online pharmacy ( I know, a dangerous proposition but I was only taking 4mg which I researched extensively before hand). In August of '08 I finally found a therapist that had experience with GID and my physician help me find an Endocrinologist. In October my therapist okayed my HRT use and my endo put me on Estradiol (4mg) and Spironoctone (50mg twice a day). I had already been undergoing laser hair removal on my face by this time and I'm still going through this process. I have been on this new hormone regime for 6 months now and still have unwanted hair growth but it does appear to be thinning (but not as fast as I'd like).

Huggles,

Winnie

Huggles,

Winnie
Winnie_small.jpg

Estrogen and facial hair

Estrogen by itself doesn't remove facial hair. It simply stops new hair follicles from forming.

At puberty, testosterone multiplies the number of hair follicles, and makes them coarser. So if you do electrolysis on an adult male and remove all facial hair, you're just back to the same point as puberty: testosterone makes new hair follicles and makes them coarser. It's not cost effective to do electrolysis before starting hormones, you're just fighting a never ending battle.

If you're on estrogen or testosterone blockers, then the hairs you kill with electrolysis won't grow back. Those that are there will grow progressively finer, but won't go away by themselves. So you need both the hormones and the hair removal.

Electrolysis also only works when done on hair follicles that are active and growing. When it's done in the dormant phase of the hair (which precedes the hair falling out), you get no effect, because the follicle has pulled itself in. So maybe half the hairs that get zapped are actually being weakened, and the rest of the zaps have no effect. But as you continue to clear the face with weekly treatments, you eventually get to all the hairs while they're in their growing phase.

One very important thing: do the hair removal BEFORE your real life test. Cause when else will you have time to let facial hair grow for three days, and still be able to go out in public? You can't hole up three days a week and hold a job or go to school.

Researching hormones, Estrace seems to be the best available choice. It's bio-identical, meaning it's the exact same molecule as human estrogen (specifically, 17 beta estradiol). Conjugated estrogens (estradiol, estrol and estrione) are good in that they cover the range of estrogens women naturally have... but none of the available conjugated estrogen products are exactly the same molecules as human estrogen, as far as I've been able to tell.

Sadly, it seems many endocrinologists are not that competent in this. Do your research, and tell them which hormones you want. They may argue with you, but generally are willing to give in to your preferences. To them, it's all the same. To you... it's your life.

Spironoctone ... is

Spironoctone ... is something you should get yourself off asap. Despite frequently being put on the 'list of things we should be on' it is not designed to be a blocker and only occasionally/rarely has that effect in individual cases. It is a diuretic and is very disruptive/harmful to your system.

For good Infos look at

For good Infos look at TsDoItYourselfHormones (YahooGroup)
I think the best testosterone blocker is Androcur (low doses) but a little costly.
Most I know use Estrofem or Progynova so far. (ok, me too :) )

What herbal testosterone blocker are aviable ?

Jenny

If you are sure that you are TS ...

If you are taking Estrogen in any form, and are completely sure that you want SRS, then Castration is cheap, only about $1000 or less, done in the office, and pretty much pain free post op.

My Doc in Thailand said that your Willy does not shrink and scar tissue is not an issue with post op Castrations when it comes to SRS.

I must be really sensitive to Estrogen because twice I tried to self medicate to 4 mg and landed in the Psych ward both times. Of course, I was going through the loss of family, divorce and other things at the time so could have just been vulnerable. About two weeks ago, I tried two patches and took one off before the day was out. I was having PMS like symptoms that were just wild as hell. So, no more of that for me. I simply do not know how you girls that take 4 or more Mg of E, can do it!

Another aspect of all this is that a Doctor here in Portland, who is T herself has discovered that post op T folk have Osteoporosis. For that reason, the VA has me on huge doses of Calcium Citrate and Vitamin D. This is extremely important!

Many Blessings

Gwendolyn

Herbal testosterone blocker

Angharad's picture

could be saw palmetto, which helps prevent testosterone become di-hydro-testosterone (DHT), which is what does all the damage in terms of masculinisation. DHT is also a big factor in prostate hypertrophy and cancer, which saw palmetto helps to protect against.

Angharad

Angharad

I recommend

http://www.myevanesce.com/

Anyone looking into herbal estrogen and testosterone blockers should read some of the discussions in the forums there, it's far more informative on the subject that some people in the medical profession when it comes to supporting our community.

------------------------------

Here's a cut/paste FAQ bit from a post there by Dianna:

Many/most people with the TG/TS communities are working from a flawed paradigm of how the human body works,
and specifically of how the male human body feminizes.

There are hundreds of different hormones in the human body, each designed to do specific functions.
For example, Leptin is the hormone which tells the body "that is enough food, I'm full"
Insulin is the hormone that works to convert sugar in the body, into glucose,
which is the nutrient that cells need in order to function, to live.

But for this discussion, we need to focus on the three primary 'sex" hormones:
Testosterone, estrogen, progesterone.

The hormone Estrogen is what feminizes a human body, female or male.

The question then is: "Where does this estrogen come from?".

For a human body with ovaries and uterus, etc., those organs produce estrogen.
For a human body with testes, those organs produce testosterone.

In order to feminize a male body, it is necessary to reduce testosterone, and to increase estrogen.

The quickest way to reduce testosterone is to get rid of the testes.
This is of course not a good solution for most people wanting to feminize.

So it is the challenge of increasing estrogen levels, that I will write to, here:

Your body needs estrogen in order to grow breasts.
The question then is, "where will this extra, new, estrogen come from?"

Herbs themselves do not directly grow breasts, nor do herbs do any other direct feminization.

Any and all foods which we eat, are converted by our body,
into the things -- molecules -- we do need, in order for our body to survive and to function.

For example, when we eat red meat, our body converts much of the meat molecules, into cholesterol molecules.
A portion of the cholesterol molecules are then converted into the hormone molecule called pregnenolone,
Pregnenolone molecules are then converted into DHEA molecules.
DHEA is a foundational hormone molecule which is then modified into the other hormone molecules our body needs in order to function, to stay alive.
In the male body, much of the cholesterol-based DHEA molecules are further converted into testosterone molecules, through several intermediate steps/conversions.

Fruits, plants, and other leafy things like lettuce, spinach, etc., also are converted by our body into hormone molecules
and other substances our body needs -- spinach for example helps our body to have things like iron...

There is a category of fruits and plants which the human body will specifically convert into estrogen molecules.
This category of fruits and plants is referred to as phyto-estrogenic,
and are not to be confused with xeno-estrogens,
which are chemical pollution estrogen mimics which screw up the human body, badly.

So this is not about herbs themselves feminizing the human male body,
but rather it is about increasing the estrogen molecule supplies WITHIN the human body,
which will then cause feminization.

Eating/Ingesting phyto-estrogenic herbs, can provide this additional estrogen supply,
IF it is done properly,
and in sufficient quantities,
and taken consistently every day.

And, in order for the human male body to make space, room, for the new additional estrogen molecule supplies,
that body has to reduce its supply of testosterone molecules, first.
Or else, no useful amount of estrogen will be created from anything a person eats/ingests,
because there will not be room for those increased estrogen supplies.

So, you see, it is not the herbs specifically which feminize a human male body,
it is the hormones -- the estrogen -- which the herbs must be converted into,
which will feminize the human male body.

And this is why just taking some random menopausal herbal formulation,
will not feminize a male human body.

Most brands of PMS and menopausal herbal formulations, contain quantities -- or high quantities -- of Saw Palmetto.
While this herb might be beneficial to a born-female body in many good ways,
in the male body, Saw Palmetto increases testosterone levels,
which is the opposite of what needs to happen in order to feminize..

My goal has been to feminize so that I can be more passable when I dress and feel more feminine,
and yet still I'd like to be able to live as a man. - It's a fine line, I know.

It is an extremely fine line, yes.

In order to safely feminize a male body, you need to be using an herbal formulation which will reduce testosterone levels and production.
Evanesce plus AndroEase & CalmCompanion, does exactly that,
which is why THESE particular herbal formulations do work, so well.
Plus, Evanesce has considerable estrogen resources, in addition.

Are there any long-term effects from herbals? Will it cause shrinkage or atrophy of my male parts at all, or impotence? I would like to have function.

This is not about herbs/herbals -- this is about changing your body's overall supplies of the primary sex hormones.

Anything you do to reduce testosterone levels, and anything you do to increase estrogen levels significantly,
will eventually cause atrophy of the penis and testes.

It does not matter if you use drug estrogens, or herbal-based estrogens.
Eventually you will become impotent, and likely sterile. Sterility is permanent.

I've tried to come off of Dutasteride. In a way, I don't know if it's true, but I felt a 'calming' effect with antiandrogens.

Dutasteride, aka Avodart, is NOT an anti-androgen, regardless of what you may read on other TG/TS web sites.
Those other sites are just plain wrong, about this drug.

Dutasteride is a drug developed to block the conversion of testosterone molecules
into di-hydro-testosterone (DHT) molecules.

DHT is a testosterone derivative -- off-shoot -- which is very damaging to the prostate,
and DHT is also the primary cause of male pattern baldness.
Some males have high levels of DHT, some males have virtually no DHT production.

The same is true of finasteride -- which is generally sold as Propecia or Proscar.
Neither of these is an anti-androgen, either.
Go to http://www.drugs.com/avodart.html and especially read the "Important Information" section
(it is below the Google Ads section)

With some of the prescribed estrogens, and true antiandrogens like Androcur and even the diuretic Spironolactone (Aldactone),
> how does that effect and make you feel when you take them, as opposed to how you felt before, as a man?
> What psychological, emotional and other changes happen?
> I can look it up, but to hear it from a real person is so much better.

Androcur is stunningly emotionally destructive to the majority of TG/TSs who use it.
It causes extreme rage, short temper, among other symptoms.
It is also physically very dangerous,
which is why it is not approved -- not legal -- for sale/delivery within the United States.

Spironolactone is a duiretic, a potassium sparing diuretic.
Its effects as an anti-androgen , are listed as a "rare side effect".
But it does have a great ability to create extreme dehydration,
symptoms of which include severe muscle cramps, and at an extreme, dehydration is fatal.

It also can very easily create a condition of potassium overload, which can be fatal.
These outcomes are why this drug is supposed to only used by prescription,
under a doctor's watchful eye and ongoing testing.

Transgender people using any of these drugs in stealth, without anyone knowing,
are at risk of undefinable death; everyone dies eventually, but the cause in these cases will be unknown.

To me, the Proscar/Dutasteride never affected my sex drive. Only they've made me crave sex, but, more than ever, as a woman and now with a man.

Yes -- as before: these drugs only block the conversion of testosterone into DHT,
which thereby increases your overall testosterone levels, which would increase your sex drive.
And which makes feminization of the male body much more difficult.

What do some of the transgenders working in the adult film industry do to feminize but maintain some form of male function?

Mostly they use surgeries.... so as to not disrupt testosterone supplies.

And some of them have bodies which just do not function like the vast majority of human bodies function.
They are in their own unique way, like any super athlete:
their body can do things virtually no other human body can do.

Please go to http://www.myevanesce.com/hormone101.html for additional information.