OK! Everyone that is an AMERICAN on this site check out this site: http://www.bornagainamerican.org/ Richard
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Born Again?
As soon as I saw those words, I knew I wasn't going to go along with whatever the site was about. It's too much like "born again christians", most of whom seem to like right wing republicanism. I see Bushies and those more reactionary as the death of our biosphere, including us. In the shorter term, they are apparently for an intolerant theo/plutocracy, against the bill of rights, and very determined that there be only two classes in the US, very rich and very poor. Yes, to me they seem very confused and vote over and over against their own interests. I don't know why they can't see that increasing taxes on the middle and upper middle class and cutting the taxes on the very rich and large corporations will not help them.
So after moving around the front page of the site for a while, I saw the word "bible" for half a second. I then had to wait a few minutes more for it to appear again. Are they trying to down play this aspect of their organization?
I really, really think that all people should be able to worship (or not) as they please. I just want what ever teachings, laws, sins, etc. that they have in their religion (or not) to not effect, what-so-ever, the workings, policy and laws of any level of government in the US (except as decided by Native Americans on Native American Reservations). I really would like to get to a future where all people are treated equally and have equal rights and protection under law ASAP.
Are you and American or are you an American?
Blessings,
Renee
Hugs and Bright Blessings,
Renee
Whoa, Renee
Yeah, I don't like the name either (I was born just fine the first time, thank you very much, and never stopped being an American even as people with flag lapel pins were grinding their wingtips into the Constitution.)
I guess they took their name from the evangelical sects use of it (they're neither Christian or right, so i won't use that term), but I don't think this is a right-wing or a religious group. It seems to be an off shoot of People for the American Way, which is an progressive advocacy group and, was started as a watch dog on the far right pseudo-prophets. And is about as far from the intolerant groups you're talking about as you could get, at least they have the link on the same page, and Norman Lear is a director of both.
Born again?
Well, the repeated chorus is:
>> I’m a Born Again American, conceived in Liberty
>> My Bible and the Bill of Rights, my creed’s equality
which is both hyperbole and overtly Christian, so we must assume that the "born again" refrain is intentional and means what it sounds like.
Unless, of course, they're all famously ignorant of the use of the term for other purposes for the last hundred years or so.
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Stealing words from you
You are letting them steal the words from us. Please don't. They have tried it with 'liberty' (I have now idea what they mean by it, but they love it), and they have tried to take the constitution though they seem to have never read it, especially not hte preamble or first three words. And they almost succeeded with our flag while ignoring the ideals and principles that hold it up.
But the term "Born again" is not overtly religious, just a thing coined by Falwell or Baker or one of those clowns during the televangelist craze. Even "Fundamentalist", for a movement or sect, is only about sixty or seventy years old (though they claim longer of course, and does go back to a book that is almost a hundred) It's possible that Lear et al are trying to take it back by using it (as they did with 'American Way'). And there is certainly noting innately hateful about the Bible, even if hateful people use it.
[BTW there are a lot of Christian groups that are ecstatic to be let back into the White House after these eight years. People like Lutherans, Episcopalians, and even the Salvation Army that weren't considered "Faith based" enough to get funding for their charities from the last occupant, because they worked for urban poor and didn't ask all the 'right' questions. Not all Christians are so un-Christian as the fundamentalist and there Media Darling leaders.]
I'm not saying jump in with both feet without looking, research first, but PFAW and Lear are not likely to attach their names and logo to any kind of hate group, or religious zealotry.
Overtly religious...
I don't think either Falwell or Baker coined the phrase from thin air:
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
--- John 3.3 (King James Version)
On the other hand, being "born again" was a regular feature of the Mystery religions current in the Middle East and throughout the Roman Empire at the time, so I suppose one could minimise the Jesus reference, but the same holds true for almost all the Christian paraphernalia, except perhaps the name Jesus.
Dionysus, for example was the Son of God, born of a mortal virgin, martyred and then resurrected, but what the heck? So was Mithra. Happens all the time.
The Elusinian Mysteries were death and ressurection re-enactments too, with a symbolic baptismal rebirth for initiates featured prominently in their symbolism.
Baptism itself is cribbed from the Mikveh, fount of Living Waters, Mayyim Hayyim, and rebirth is a prominent metaphor that features in Judaism, and in almost every religion around the world. We are all, in fact, born once, and it seems to leave a lasting impression.
Theoretically, you're absolutely right.
But still...
There's that refrain.
In context, I think it's quite likely that "The Bible" being waved around contains a new testament, and that "born again" retains its Christian flavour.
Puddin'
-
Cheers,
Puddin'
A tender heart is an asset to an editor: it helps us be ruthless in a tactful way.
--- The Chicago Manual of Style
Bible Study
With regard to your last line, Puddin'...
Likely, perhaps. But the lyric, rather significantly, said "MY" Bible, in at least subtle support of the idea that one man's Bible is another's Koran, or Torah, or Vedic literature, or whatever. (Then again, the Sporting News, formerly Baseball's Bible, probably doesn't count...)
Eric
I didn't actually use that
I didn't actually use that link but if anyone thinks that being a true American and the bible go hand in hand then they are truly mistaken. Many of America's "Founding Fathers" were Deist and, as such, did not believe in the bible. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, James Madison, and James Monroe can be counted among them.
Americans who consider themselves to be christian may be interested in this page... http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/myth.html
They may then realise how un-American they may be if they think the christian faith should be used in arguments.
Really
Renee writes- I don't know why they can't see that increasing taxes on the middle and upper middle class and cutting the taxes on the very rich and large corporations will not help them.
Who passed this tax credit? Was it a Republican or Democratic administration? By the way it is about to expire next year. Which party had candidates campaigning in favor of this tax credit being cut in half?*
Danielle
Parent to Seven(three living)
Who don't like the far left, the far right, or people who just know the talking points.
*- Repeal of early 2000s passed tax legislation, which a 100% increase in the tax credit was part of.
Einstein described insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the result to change. Was Albert a reader of TG fiction then?
Daniel, author of maid, whore, bimbo, and sissy free TG fiction since 2000
What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.- Oscar Levant
In a word
nope!
Angharad
Angharad
Well, yes, I guess you could
Well, yes, I guess you could say I'm "american". But no, I'm not "American". Hey, my people were here long before those Americans moved in (and ruined the neighbourhood!).
Mind you, my multi-times-great grandparents managed to get chased out of the Ohio valley nearly 200 years ago. Chased all the way up to Canada, where I live now...
Some days you're the pigeon, some days you're the statue
Bornagainamerican
I see it as an outreach of the left to Christian conservatives. They employ a modification of "Born Again" to make their position appear Christian, even referring to the Bible. The cowboy singing, and the country western style of song is another catch. However:
The founder, as it says in the "About Us," is Norman Lear, a long-time committed leftist. The message is about promoting activism, a code word almost entirely of the left. The song is (loosely) about how government should be held accountable to make life better for the people. I thought it was interesting -- and telling -- that they tout the spirit of the Declaration of Independence, a vague phrase that can mean whatever the reader desires, rather than the Constitution, which is the specific contract between the people and the federal government -- the heart of the conservative position.
The underlying message is that it's patriotic to support big government to achieve one's dreams, vaguely mixing this with social justice. It's a clever equivalent of singing "Raise the Red Flag."
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
Norman Lear
Sounds like "Bunker-mentality".
You don't hear me gettin' historical.
I'm readin' in the paper where the CIA is dopin' people up. Maybe somebody injected some of that LSD in the lady's cottage cheese.
That's what Columbus said to the Indians just before he gypped 'em out of Manhattan.
Didn't he take the exercise tax off cars?
It's a well known histororical fact: they gave 'em an inch of CzechosloWakia and they took Poland.
The highest standard of living! The grossest national product!
Ordinary tradegies of war.
Making suppository remarks about our country.
I don't go around signin' no political documentaries.
It is nice to hear "Little Grasshopper" chirping again.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
I guess ...
... if I'm supposed to be Archie Bunker, then you must be the Meathead?
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
The Problem I Had...
...was the song's identification, in effect, of ethics with organized religion. While I did note the song's use of "MY" bible (as opposed to "our" or "the") -- and the cameo by the Muslim and Jewish clergy -- I object to its strong suggestion that one can't be a contributing, moral American in a rational way.
Eric
(Nice, though, that 30 years after "I'm Easy", Keith Carradine finally came up with another song...)
Interesting
Well, I don't think the bornagainamerican people who wrote this stuff actually believe in the religious message themselves. I think they constructed this ad to appeal to those whom they consider irrational, i.e. religious people, but unfortunately (to them) vote.
Still, you have a point. Personally, I think that most of the world is mad, just in varying degrees. I read a week or so ago of a scientist that said that religion and science, the last, meaning, by implication, rational thought, are incompatible. I have to agree.
Nonetheless, you have to be very careful about drawing the correct conclusions. I'd say that taking anything on faith alone, whether it be a religion, the goodness of a person or institution, or an "ism" makes people less than completely rational because they lose the ability to be objective, at least whatever they're "sure" about. Being an Atheist or Agnostic doesn't automatically confer bragging rights. They can be the biggest nut cases of them all.
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
Belief in a Concept...
I'm a former member of PFAW, back in the 1980s, when they were mostly involved with placing op-eds in newspapers, stifling censorship in schools and libraries, and fighting creationism in school systems. I can tell you that Norman Lear considered it important, while trying to prevent self-described Christian groups from getting their dogma taught in public schools, to make sure that nobody did so by shoving religion as a subject under the rug. Beyond his including ministers prominently among the group's spokespeople -- liberal ones, of course, but they represented faiths, Southern Baptist and Roman Catholic, well within the mainstream -- Lear argued that the impact of religion on American history was so strong that failing to discuss it in its proper context was almost as wrong as advocating it.
To be sure, that probably wasn't the most popular point among the membership. But remember that the American Way that the group was intended to stand for was neither Big Government nor the Nanny State. It was Pluralism -- something that any libertarian could get behind -- and the theory that neither the government nor any "silent majority" had any right to tell the general public what they could read, watch or believe in. (That, of course, was where Lear, as the producer of a controversial television show, was coming from in organizing the group -- that and his objection to the right wing monopolizing all the patriotic icons from Vietnam on through the Reagan revolution.)
Read
I myself is not joining the site, but I was wondering what would happen here with it. It sounds like something out the bible states of the central states of eastern US. It got more hits then I thouhgt it would! Richard
Richard
How The Idea Came About -- The Background Story
In an article in the Huffington Post, Norman Lear explains where the idea came from and what he hopes it will lead to:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/norman-lear/born-again-america...
I hope this will help clear up any misconceptions about the site and the song.
No misconceptions here
The section, About Us, restates the purpose. The lyrics to the song, too, speak for themselves. Thanks for posing the HuffPo link. The comments there are illuminating. Pretty interesting what people think about it. Some couldn't stand the ad for its mention of the Bible. Others couldn't stand it because the words to the song were defeatist, a mild slam at the war in Iraq, and laced with victimization. I have no doubt that Norman Lear would love to have his "patriotic" message out there, and for everyone to gather around it.
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
I am stuck to da carpet
The minute that I heard "Born again" ALL my claws came out, and now I am stuck to the carpet, and I don't know when I'll get free. Like many others, I spent thousands of hours volunteering in service to their plans and when my little "secret" got out, they trashed me like used toilet paper.
Oh America has big problems, but Americans are going to have to solve them. No one needs 4 Televisions, 3.2 cars, Fast Food, and a whole bunch of things like that.
I do! I do!
"No one needs 4 Televisions, 3.2 cars, Fast Food, and a whole bunch of things like that."
Actually, I have five televisions, five cars, a pickup truck and a motorcycle, and I need them!
I don't need fast food though, 'cause when I cook for myself it is cheaper and better tasting.
Mr. Ram
The big picture Gwen misses
I have three children and a mother-in-law living under the roof with the wife and I. How many televisions do we have?
Five. One in the living room, the kitchen, my den, my bedroom, and Nanay's room. If I were to remove them, I would invoke the wrath of the Filipina mafia. They need their Wowowee, The Buzz, and other Philippine programming.
We only have one car but have five computers in the house.(4 desktops and 1 laptop)On the other hand we rarely get fast food.
Cheers,
Danielle
Einstein described insanity as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the result to change. Was Albert a reader of TG fiction then?
Daniel, author of maid, whore, bimbo, and sissy free TG fiction since 2000
What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.- Oscar Levant
Disappointed...
How can one sneer at a group while complaining that that group practices prejudice?
There are a number of born-again Christians on BCTS, so tarring them (us) with the with the same brush as the likes of Phelps (or what ever his name is) is nothing but bigotry.
I know many Christians who believe that homosexuality is a sin, but who don't hate them. If we hate those Christians, we are definitely giving them the moral high ground.
I have done a bunch of thinking and studying. I have come to the conclusion that, while the fundamentalists may have a point about male/male homosexuality, there is nothing in the Bible that even hints that lesbianism is sinful, and it takes a good bunch of legalism to try to paint people with gender dysphoria/gender identity disorder as sinful. Also, the one place that mentions cross dressing is very close to other verses that look a lot like those amusing articles that talk about silly laws that are still on the books. I mean really -- what is wrong with wearing wool and linen at the same time?
So, while I am disappointed with my brothers and sisters in Christ when they express disdain at people who might enjoy this site, I am equally disappointed when people reject Christians because some of their brothers and sisters don't understand.
Yes, there are plenty of hateful people out there who call themselves Christians. Most of us, however, love the sinner while hating the sin. All too many of us (Christian or not) go with the 'party line' without actually studying the situation.
With love,
Ray Drouillard