Hi everyone,
As you might know I'm new to the site as a writer, but I've been an avid reader for a long time.
I love writing. I've loved it since I was a kid, writing short stories full of plot holes and grammar errors that make my adult self cringe just thinking about. I'm finally beginning to get past my writer's block, kicking around a really fun story idea. The main character's going to end up being a bit of a Mary Sue, and that's intentional. I just want to write a positive piece to get my feet wet.
I'm going to be building a new PC this week (everything's on its way via UPS and should be here Wednesday), so I don't want to do too much yet, only to have to stop abruptly while I get used to Vista, so right now I'm just doing a lot of prewriting and idea-brainstorming.
ANYway, as the subject implies, I wanted to ask, just how much is too much when dealing with description in your writing?
I still remember having it hammered into my head in high school, and again in my creative writing courses in college, that you should always assume your reader doesn't know, but if you saw my blogs, you know that I tend to get a little carried away in my writing. I lose myself in it, but at the same time I worry about boring my reader with too much description.
So, is there such a thing as too much?
One more question while I'm thinking about it. How do you generally find yourself dealing with geographic location in a story? I mean, do you prefer to use a real place, or a fictional city/region without a name? It's the little things like that that always get me, and probably one of the reasons I don't try to write more.
Anyway, thank you for any input or thoughts, and as always, sorry for the rambling. :)
~Zoe
Eep
Just realized I put this in the wrong section >_> Sorry. I swear I thought I was posting waaay down there in the Writer section.
It's subjective
Description is subjective, and each writer has their own style, but can you overdo it? Sure. There are guidelines: avoid adverbs unless you really need them; favor descriptive nouns over adjectives; try to make everything you write contribute to the story; don't make the same point again and again.
The more I read, the more I appreciate writing that communicates what an author means to say, and no more. If bloated prose were food, it would give me gas. ;)
Aardvark
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
"Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony."
Mahatma Gandhi
your new computer project
You write of adjusting to vista.
Based on personal experience, as of April this year; UNLESS your new systen has AT LEAST 2 GIG of RAM, ( Prefferably 3 GIG )
and at least a 2.2 gigahertz each duo-core chip, FORGET ABOUT VISTA!!!!!!!!!
Now, I will be the first to give Vista it's due. Vista does GREAT GRAPHICS!!!!!!
But I have told that with an upgrade of at least 1 gig of ram and additional Vista software, I might get a leavel of data
and file transfer and management I had with XP. ( If I had known this, things would be different! )
As to your writing, JUST DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You will get PLENTY of FEEDBACK concerning it!!!!!
Yes, you can
And it is a subjective point, depending on the reader's interest. What is meat and potatoes to some readers is a waste of time to others. Best bet is to get several people to read the story before posting, and see what they have to say, and how it agrees with your ideas of the story. What you write can always be trimmed afterwards, that is the purpose of rough drafts. But you need somebody to read it who is willing to say "Cut all this out, you are wasting the reader's time and they are gonna walk out on you".
But, by way of describing things not everybody knows, what do you mean by "The main character's going to end up being a bit of a Mary Sue. . ."?
KJT
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
Mary Sue
The term comes from fan fiction; a Mary Sue is an obvious stand-in for the author. Pejoratively, it means a character who is too good to be true, but it can also just mean it's obviously a wish fulfillment fantasy for the author. :) Lots of Mary Sue writing in TG fiction. :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Oh
Is there some kind of history for the term? I mean, why Mary Sue? Was that once a character in a story, and the character's name was applied to all such characters?
Yes, I'd agree, lots of wish fullfillment in these stories. But what about when a story is used by the author to exorcise some personal demons. An example not entirely at random, the character of Sharon in "Another Wonderful Day In Paradise". Sharon - Karen. Somehow, Mary Sue sounds too "sweet" for this type of character.
KJT
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
Mary Sue??? Live Long and Prosper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Wiki faults
Like some other entries I've seen on Wikipedia, the information is as much anecdotal as factual. It does answer part of my questions, but the underlying website that purports to have the full details is, amazingly enough, down.
KJT
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
Mary Sue: Long Essay
Ellen Hayes posted a long essay (by Pat Pflieger) on the subject of Mary Sue on the Tuckerspawn board -- it's at http://tuckerspawn.fictioneer.org/index.php?t=msg&goto=3817&... . (The essay itself has nothing to do with Ellen or Tuck -- her reason for posting was to get opinions on whether her Tuck character fell into the category.)
It seems to me, if the essay's a fair description of the category, that there are two different descriptions in play here. One is a character whose presence in a fan-fiction setting subverts that environment (e.g., Kirk and Spock are so eager to please Mary Sue, their new passenger on the Enterprise, that they behave in ways we wouldn't expect them to). The other, which can apply to original fiction, isn't as easily nailed down, as I read it, but involves an omnicompetent character who is expected to have the reader's complete sympathy and (as Zoe said) tends to represent some sort of wish fulfillment on the part of the author.
Eric
Thanks, Eric
I quickly scanned it, and saved it off for a full read later.
KJT
"Life is hard. It's harder when you're stupid."
Sir Charles Panther
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
Hmmm...
Too much description? A few words can be too much if it is boring to the reader, and long endless pages can be wonderful it it keeps the reader engrossed.
I'm not sure exactly what else you're asking. Assume the reader knows what?
I tend to write SF, so I generally use fictional cities. If I didn't, I could certainly use the Detroit or Cadillac areas because I know them, but I would try to write it such that someone who has been there would feel a sense of familiarity, but that people who didn't know the areas at all wouldn't miss out on any important parts of the story.
Ray Drouillard
Zoe - I've Never Met Zoe I Didn't Like
Most books suggest that the mind has a tough time assimilating more than three descriptors in one shot. Some books suggest a solid single identifying description for a character that can be used throughout the story to introduce the character to scenes. I believe in a minimalist approach - but I'm a plot-driven person. A scene-driven person wants to know everything about the setting (think Michener). A character-driven reader probably wants all the character description you can give them.
The location (city) matters to some. If your TG story happens to be a mystery you almost HAVE TO place it in L.A. I once used a western Illinois city to suggest a single-mindedness that happens in small towns. If your location is a real city make sure you have the smallest details correct or your readers will come after you. I mostly use Minneapolis because I know it the best.
You curiosity suggests you probably should read some of the books about writing. I believe good writing starts after you quit worrying about the small stuff -- like if you should use a real city. Rules might be right or wrong, but if you have a set of rules, you won't sweat the small stuff (as much) and can get on to telling a great story.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
If you feel you must give a lot of description ...
... try to give it in little bites, not one indigestible lump. Often, if you can sneak >a little< into into the dialog, that works, but don;t make it sound as if the character is delivering a lecture. Give them a reason to make the description, and go on.
I know that sounds like a copout, but if you add it to the other fine advice above, it might help you.
One of the most difficult things to give away is kindness.
It usually comes back to you.
Holly
One of the most difficult things to give away is kindness.
It usually comes back to you.
Holly
Geographic area
I think your question about too much comment has been dealt with elsewhere, so I'll only say, depending upon the quality of the writing, three lines can be boring, or ten pages can be interesting. Read and reread what you've written a few weeks later. Is it really interesting, or does it set you yawning?
As for the real geographic location, I've read a few stories by professional mainstream authors which have been set in real locations. Without exception, that has significantly detracted from the story rather than added to it.
Remember that even the most popular of locations will probably only be known to (say) 5% of your readers, so when the author assumes some kind of familiarity of location, which seems almost inevitable, it only confuses and bores the 95%. "He turned right here, and then turned left into..." Who cares?
Then the 5% will be reading every word looking for a slip up, rather than enjoying the story for itself.
And of course, a fictional location is so much more versatile. You want a tobacco shop here or a major airport there? Then there's no need to apply for planning permision or public inquiry. Just write them in!
Finally, one cannot ignore the issue of unintentional libel. Why are all the staff and customers laughing at the manager of the MacDonalds at SF airport? Why? Because someone has posted up your story telling them that he's a cross dresser. Have your lawyer's telephone number handy!
Create your own fictional location. It can be everything you want, and nothing you don't want. That's why fiction is so much better than real life. And don't be afraid of giving it a fictional name, as for example, Charlotte Dickles has done with her stories set in the fictional seaside town of Seacombe.
My rule of thumb on
My rule of thumb on descriptions is this: Put enough in there to say what I mean without the reader having to guess. It's the one problem I had when I was writing in school. I'd assume the reader knew what I meant to say and so I wouldn't say what I meant.
I got really low grades for that.
So I have my wife read through things and if she can follow it, I'll re-read it and make sure it still says what I mean for it to say, and if it does, then I post it. not before.
As to setting, I tend to make mine vague. Unless the setting is central to the story (like taking place on a moon base, or in an underground cave in the Amazon), I give a general setting, but I stay away from specific locales. I'll say that it's a city, or the suburbs of a city, an Army base, a shop with an underground complex, or something similar. But the point is that the whole story can be picked up and moved from one specific location to another without change. If I say "a new city, sewers, skyscrapers, pollution, a shop in that city, etc" it could be New York, LA, Atlanta, Prague, Paris, London or any other urban western-style location.
But that's me. You'll find your own level in this.
----------------------------
May the Stars light your path.
Joy
Thank you so much
Thanks so much for the advice, everyone. It's really eased my mind about diving in head-first, now that I, quite literally, have got the first two scenes for this firs tstory lodged in my brain.
As to the term, "Mary Sue", it came up in discussion a few years ago, back when I was playing and writing minor fanfic for City of Heroes. We were talking about our favorite superheroes over group chat, when someone made the comment about how they liked Marvel's X-Men because there were fewer Mary Sue-like characters, or somesuch.
I had to have them explain that one to me, and it just sort of stuck with me ever since. It originally was a sort of derogatory term for a character that was just entirely too perfect to be believed. A great example was a new roleplayer who joined our group whose character was written to have been able to speak every known language, play every instrument ever invented, and blended every style of martial arts.
Of course, it being a superhero game leans toward ignoring that sort of thing, too, so it's probably a really bad example. For me, I tend to use it as described above, although as the story develops in my mind I'm seeing 'her' becoming more and more believable, just... more practical than I would've been in the situations she's going to be getting into ;)
Oh, with building my new PC I'm going with 4 gigs of high-performance RAM and Vista 64, along with an Intel Core 2 Duo Wolfdale 2.8Ghz processor. I was going to grab XP Pro, but with Windows 7 and Vista SP2 on the horizon I figured I may as well take the plunge.
Yes, I'm a complete computer nerd ;) This is my first build though so I'm kind of excited.
Anyway, thanks again, everyone. I really, really appreciate the advice. I'll run my rough drafts by a couple of folks, then post up *in the right forum this time, I swear* for critique when I'm confident it's presentable. Not perfect, but presentable.
~Zoe