Author:
Suppose There Actually Was a God
• You know, one like the God of the Koran
• Or the slightly less nasty God of the Old Testament (Jewish) Bible
• Or even the almost-likable God of the New Testament (Christian) Bible
o Confucian and Hindu and Wiccan (and so on) Gods and Goddesses are hardly significant
BUT we should not dismiss them without at least considering the philosophies that support them
There is a lot of misinformation floating around about them
And there is a serious lack of information about them in general
Most religions claim that their God loves us.
They mostly also claim that their God has granted us certain rights, such as life and liberty.
And yet, when one of *us* is enslaved by another of *us*, there is no divine intervention.
WTF?
If the grantor of a right will not enforce that right, does the right actually exist?
But more to the point, does the Grantor of said right actually exist?
No evidence? / Where’s the beef?
I am not saying that there is no afterlife.
In fact, my scientist background forces me to acknowledge that there is some (weak) evidence pointing to the possibility of an afterlife of some sort. Until that evidence is shown to be invalid I have to keep my mind open.
But I do *not* see evidence of a Heaven/Hell/Whatever that resembles anything like what is described in any of the known major religions
Comments
All interesting questions
All are interesting questions worthy of pondering. But things always get tricky when scaled to universal or near universal levels. If God has granted humanity free will as their right - then enforcing that right would mean enforcing that nothing else interferes with it. Punishing or enforcing against one human who has enslaved another would mean interfering with the slaver's free choice as well. The usual supposition is that the judgment and/or punishment happens after a life is done, when such would no longer interfere with the free choices as given the living.
Then there's the grey area of how much nudging or meddling can be done without crossing such a line, which is usually where angels are said to work and possibly run into trouble...
Noo chance really...
The Gods you listed mostly have the defined characteristics of
(1) Omnipotent - all powerful
(2) Omniscient - all knowing
(3) Omni-benevolent - all loving
(4) the creator
Looking at the world, it is built on competing unto death, Even your health depend on the result of almost infinite battles between microbes and even your personality depends on the results of those any battles to the death.
If anyone designed and built this universe they were NOT kind but cruel and capricious. If this universe was built it was by something we would not recognise as god or even good.
I certainly cannot accept a god who creates species just to be fodder.
I couldn't let this pass.
I was a Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian for 33 years. Then Muslim for 8 years. Went to a Mormon Church for 5 years. I say this, not to demonstrate my holiness but to show I was a seeker for a long, long time. No criticism of anyone. I've finally gotten over the fact that most of the devout have been hostile toward me, and forgiven them.
In my dotage, feel that the existence of an organizing influence in the Universe is proven. That I can understand how he works, I can not. In relationship to him, I am satisfied with it, and don't demand that anyone follow in my footsteps.
I was on my way to become "a man of the cloth" at one point, but failed and they quickly made an end to me. I think there are hundreds of divisions or denominations in the and many of them roundly condemn the others.
For me, 95% of my belief comes from Science, the rest due to faith or emotionality perhaps. I follow rituals that please me and make no demands of others. Those who are offended can pound sand. A casual reading of the Laws of Physics demands an organizer, but if being pre-scientific and religious pleases you, drive on. I spend just lots of time reading old documents on the subject; the Bible, and Koran being two of many. I doubt that most of the world has a clue...
As to the TG part of this, I'm just me, neither male nor female and wish I could have understood that sooner.
Some Puzzlement about Belief. Post 2
Most of my exposure is in Christian and Muslim belief, without extensive experience elsewhere.
After having read the Bible just lots, I fail to see him as mean. Were I him, I'd have wiped out man a second time, perhaps made women first on the third try?
I admire Quantum Physics but can not say that I have utility with it. I do suspicion that using more dimensions than we do now, there could be all sorts of existences here in this time and place but in another dimension? It is tiresome to have some multiple Doctorate get loud with me and demean me until he has exhausted himself.
It is sad that we Homo Sapiens don't even know what we don't know.
*
Hello Erisian and Thera and Gwen,
Thanks for your thoughtful and interesting comments. I have replies for each of you.
Erisian:
Hmm. Kind of a catch 22 thing.
If we have free will, we can't have life and liberty (at least not while we are 'alive' - say what?). Or vice-versa of course. It seems to be logical and it certainly describes the world we live in.
I also touch on free will in my reply to Gwen.
Regards,
T
Thera:
It is kind of hard to avoid this conclusion.
But (along with watching several nature episodes on the Science Channel or National Geographic) it allows us to finally answer one of the Big Questions:
“What is the meaning of life?”
The answer is not ‘42’, it is ‘lunch’.
WATCH OUT little bunny …
Regards,
T
Gwen:
That is an interesting twist, and I agree that the world might turn out better.
However, if I were Him or Her:
I would just come out of the closet. I'd stop pretending that I don’t exist.
Then I would do things like have breakfast with everyone, every day. It would be fun, sitting there and talking with you and Thera and Erisian at Denny’s, while also watching Me sitting and talking with Mr. Brown several booths over, and with Anne Wilson and with Julina and Milsy and Princess Eriana (on Anmar) and …
* You might not be able to keep up with umpteen billion chats at the same time, but for Me it is mere God's play. : - )
Free will looks like a good thing in theory. But in practice it seems to have some flat tires, or something.
By coming out I would remove faith from the equation. All human beings would then KNOW from personal experience that I exist.
Note that they will still have free will.
But they will also have very important new information about the world they live in. I suspect that almost all of them would then use their free will differently than they do now.
A handful might still murder rape and steal, I guess.
But I would know who they were before I created them.
If I were really a God of course, then I would just ...
Regards,
T
Science has problems with
Science has problems with free will too.
There have been several articles in the New Scientist over the last decade debating whether or not we have free will or whether it is merely an illusion.
An additional comment for Gwen
Gwen,
Now that my first round of comments are out there, I am looking more closely at some of the other things you guys said. This is one from you I found interesting.
I've sort of always thought of me as both male and female. At least since I became aware of the difference. Prior to that process (it was not an event) I really did not think in such terms.
I really enjoy the power and stamina of my male body. But I am also envious of the beauty and grace of the various female bodies I see around me.
I've been an on-again off-again cross dresser since around the age of eight or nine. Part of it is sexual, but I'm lucky that my body is a lot more feminine in terms of height and weight than most boys. So, with a bit of work, I can look very nice in a LBD, or in skinny jeans and a T. (Especially if the lights are dimmed a bit and I have had an adult beverage or two.)
I like to do "fashion shows" for myself.
I was in my forties before I found out about LGBT and reasonable sex change operations and so on. But after some contemplation I realized that a solution of that sort was not of interest to me. Without the option of reversibility, as often as I want, it just does not compute.
And the girl that shares my body shares that opinion. She would like to make the sex change if there were some sort of magic so that the new body was 100% female. And the process was 100% reversible.
Or what about some really advanced technology? Is there a difference between advanced tech and magic?
And I would too. Some of my (our?) best fantasies involve pregnancy. (A problem - I've never seen a male that turned me on in that way. I've tried in my fantasies, but it never works. My body-mate has been disturbingly silent on this matter. Damn it.) After raising several kiddos (of course I have to skip the making-them part), I/we would probably try the male thing again.
One body, two souls. It is a good thing we like each other.
Thank you, and the others, for some thought provoking ideas.
Regards,
T
*
Welcome to the fray, Guest Reader
I too lurked here for several years before I was brave enough to show my face with a made-up user name. Well, actually Tarzana is the name of my first hero/heroine character. I have never published any of my stories. And I probably never will. Compared to most of what I see here (even the really bad stuff) ... I kind of suck at story telling.
Anyway, I asked her for permission to use her name at BCTS, and she graciously gave it.
We are good friends, so I was not surprised that she agreed.
***
So about free will.
Two theories are relevant.
1) Time is a physical thing
2) Time is NOT a physical thing
Einstein's SRT (and therefore his GRT which inherits the space-time postulates from SR) treats time as a physical thing.
In SR, space-time is a four dimensional mathematical construct that is deemed to be a physical thing. (Yeah, go figure.) All points in space-time exist everywhere and everywhen. So what you would do as you slid out of your mom has always existed. What you said as you croaked and fell down dead has always existed. And everything in between.
Same for your and my great-great-great- ... great grand mom and dad. Add as many greats as you like. (I pick 42.)
But knowing this (whether or not it is correct) does not tell us whether or not free will exists.
If everything we ever do happens only in the present moment, then free will would seem to be a given. (Time is not a physical thing.)
But what if everything we ever do is already mapped out in space-time? (Time *is* a physical thing.) What if everything has already existed since the beginning of time? All it means is that whatever decisions we will make in the future have been recorded and mapped out. When *we* eventually get to *that* point in space-time we will still have to make a decision based on what *we* perceive has been and is happening at that time. We are free to pick any path we desire. As far as we can tell there are no constraints on us beyond the laws of physics.
We can't see the future, even if it is mapped out in 4-D space-time. So what if someone/something else can see the future. So we look at our options and make a decision.
Free will.
What ever that actually is.
Have a nice day,
T