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So. I had a job interview today. Executive Administrative Assistant. Okay, most folks think of that as, "Glorified Secretary," but this was more than that. Before I was allowed to even interview, I had to sign a non-disclosure about who was hiring.
This was scheduling and communications (Secretary, Public Relations, and Press Agent), running his office (Office Manager), supervising his home staff (Household Management), and arranging anything needed by his wife and three kids -- requiring relocation to a major city (I dunno... closest I can think of is Au Pair?). Salaried (of course), but that salary was going to be annually six figures. The interview went well, he wasn't bothered by my lack of a degree and thought it laudable that I'm currently pursuing my degree. My qualifications both from testimony from former employers and demonstrated impressed him.
However... (you knew that was coming, didn't you?)
I told him that my legal name was not the same as the name I had given him. This was pooh-poohed as not important. Until he heard said name. I then explained my situation.
"I'm sorry. You seem like a nice... person. You were wonderfully qualified for this, but I'm afraid that I have an image to maintain. I don't discriminate, I'll hire any woman suited for the job. If I were going to hire someone like... you... simply looking like a real woman would not be enough, you're just not the type that I could afford to be seen with."
In other words, I'm an ugly bat, and since I was qualified, if I'd had the fortune to have been labeled correctly at birth, I would have just landed an amazing job. But I wasn't so get stuffed.
Edit: When you hear your potential employer refer to you as a "tranny freak" there's really no path that's going to end with you employed there.
Comments
What if
you had had a legal name change before you interviewed for the job?
Sorry about the transphobia. It bit my ass really, really hard, too.
Hugs and Blessings,
Renee
Hugs and Bright Blessings,
Renee
Better luck next time
That jerk was just afraid to be seen as openminded and progressive. The heck with him. You've done a great job with these sites, maybe you could be a P.R. person for LGBT organisations. It's a thought.
"Don't let the bastards grind you down"
Jessica(smorr24)
I don't discriminate
Although I'm discriminating at this very moment...everything I say is a lie..I'm lying...[sigh]
Sorry Edeyn :(
{{{{BIG HUG}}}}
Alexis
I'm willing to bet...
That employer probably believed that he didn't discriminate.
I was discriminated against in employment once, and it wasn't nice. That said, I never got anywhere NEAR as close to the position as you did, nor was it for anywhere near as nice a position. I wasn't happy, but I can only imagine the myriad of emotions that you've experienced.
Despite being an obvious (to me) case of discrimination, I'd be VERY surprised if you could win in court. Among defenses, I suspect you'd be accused of applying under false pretenses.(which I wouldn't believe, but too many of our countrymen probalby would).
Enough. My best wishes go out to you.
Annette
I've actually had
my former District Manager (when I was working for Radio Shack years ago) justify his actions with regards to me by saying, "Well, you know I'm not prejudiced, I'm black," and totally believed that that exempted him from being accused of such. So, yeah, he likely thought he wasn't discriminating today. The Fucktard.
Civil Rights
We are quickly becoming two nations.
Those areas with civil rights laws that cover gender equality (including gender identity) and those areas that don't.
The following website is inconsistent, with many references that haven't been updated, but this page seems pretty good. It includes the NJ and NYC gender identity antidiscrimination laws as well as the statewide Colorado law, which some of their other charts don't. http://www.transgenderlaw.org/ndlaws/index.htm
I Shudder To Think Of What Would Happen
I shudder to think of what would happen if one of his kids ever came to him and said they were Transgendered or gay/lesbian. God help those poor kids being raised by a blatant bigot. I think non disclosure clauses should only cover trade secrets and not be used to hide discriminating practices. If his business accepted tax breaks from the government for hiring disabled or minority workers his butt would be in a sling. Too bad you couldn't have worn a wire and caught him saying what he did.
bastard
What a dirty bigoted bastard
BASTARD! BASTARD! BASTARD! BASTARD! BASTARD!
and an idiot
IDIOT! IDIOT! IDIOT! IDIOT! IDIOT!
to not hire (from what I've seen at least) a worker & a woman of your caliber for such a
messed up reason. I don't WISH that he hires some thieving alchoholic flake, not with kids involved,
but given his idiot bastard standards for selecting an employee it wouldn't surprise me one bit...
~~~big hugs, darlin'. LAIKA
"Government will only recognize 2 genders, male + female,
as assigned at birth-" (In his own words:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1lugbpMKDU
Gah!
That just so seriously ... sucks! I just wanna tear shreds from his stupid, worthless hide. That goddam ... GAH!
*pausing for a moment to try to get into a more civil mindset*
I'm so sorry ya had to deal with that, Sis. *snarfle*
So, what is it gonna be?
I didn't think you were trans at all but intersexed; some sort of intersexed chromosome condition.
In Oregon where I live, my I changed the gender and name on my Driver's license, I changed Gwinn to Gwen, and am legally a Female. I can get my Birth certificate from California changed to Female for $90 dollars which will happen in the next couple of months.
You should be able to clear all this up, and at least you look 100% female. Geeze Woman, flee the land that time forgot and make a life for yourself for goodness sakes. Sure, I will give you that many of the states down there have a legal requirement that your family tree look like a telephone pole.
I am frustrated enough with this to spit nails through a railroad tie at 20 feet. Geeze don't just lay down and take this. I know you have more than that.
Everyone here is rootin for you!
Gwendolyn
Definitives for ya, Gwen
transgender - to be between the two primarily recognized genders [ male or female ] whether by action or nature.
intersex - a condition from birth to be actively or inactively neither male nor female, whether the condition is known to the individual or not.
So, tell me... why is intersexed not trans?
I am a genetic mosaic (chimera) resulting from the fusing of a normal female zygote (XX) and a Kleinfelter's zygote (XXY) into one zygote (XXXXY) in the womb. I am somewhere between male and female, while really belonging to neither group biologically.
I look 100% female? Thank you, but... not really. Especially not if you check my panties.
What you may have in your panties...
(or not have) is YOUR business, and not ours, or the 'tard that couldn't get his small mind around a simple concept of competence.
Intersex
I would base a claim that intersexed is not trans on the basis that it's a purely physical causality, which exempts it from getting tossed in the bucket of psychological syndromes, where sad to say, is where transgender conditions are currently forced to live, a la DSM-IV. Also, a specialist counselor who lectures on transgender issues to therapists, made that exception in a powerpoint presentation I found on the 'net.
No one (sane) can look at your genetics and start mumbling about "lifestyles", the "natural order", immoral "choices", or other such rubbish. Honey, you ARE the natural order! It just happens to be a bit more complicated than the simple-minded expect.
Being a mosaic means that parts of your body developed from one pre-fusion zygote, and other parts of your body developed from another pre-fusion zygote. No one cell in your body should be XX-XXY, although both might show up in your blood. You could have female skin and Klinefelter's mucosa, female liver and Klinefelter's tongue, the bones in your spine might be XXY and and your limbs XX female. If you wanted to be a clever-clogs, you could get a bit of testing to see which bits of you show up as XX, then go get a selective dna test and force your stupid local jurisdiction to order you up a new birth certificate.
Sane?
The society we live in has a tendency to make people who doesn't fit neatly into some predefined box into a psychological basket cases. So it's not easy to say that something has psychological aspects while something else hasn't.
And as for sane people? If that's what we were dealing with there wouldn't be any problems from the start! =)
You Force Me...
...to go look stuff up and quote it at you!
But first, let me emphasize that I wasn't dismissing anyone's psychological stress, angst, or concomittant damage. What's at issue here is merely the diagnosis.
I'm sure there are less derivative sources than this: http://www.mhsanctuary.com/gender/dsm.htm
, but I'm lazy and this is the first copy I fell over on a google search.
So, allow me to quote, and add a bit of my own emphasis:
As you can see, Criteria C says "no concurrent physical intersex condition", and gives two examples of one. Very obviously this is not a complete list, and amongst other things, some mosaics, chimeras, and various aneuploidy conditions of the sex chromosomes qualify, too.
Just a note
That's a definition of GID, Transsexuality. Transgender is a looser, less clinical term which usually does include any sort of cross-gender manifestation. Cats are not a breed of dog but they are carnivores.
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
Perspective, Definitions, and Exceptions
I respectfully submit, that if an individual who is intersexed may not be included in the category of G.I.D., then neither can they be included in the category of crossdresser, nor in any area of gender expression considered "trans". This is because, by the simple fact of being intersexed at birth, there isn't a clear gender for them to transgress. Period. Q.E.D.
Trans- as a prefix
Does not, contrary to popular usage, mean to "go against" -- it means to be between, beyond, or inclusive of the conditions referred to. There are usages such as 'transgress' that the original meanings have been lost as it now means to go against unless you specifically look up etymology.
Look here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transgress
Perhaps
...I shouldn't have included the word "transgress" in that sentence? I was concerned someone might latch onto it to pick a nit, but then I figured it was used accurately in the context of that sentence, so what the heck. Besides, I'm looking in the dictionary (M-W New Collegiate, 10th dead tree edition). "Transgress" as an intransitive verb means: "to go beyond a boundary or limit." As a transitive verb: "To go beyond limits set or proscribed by," and "to pass beyond or go over [a boundary]." I don't see anything in there about "against".
As for the prefix trans-, which I clearly used in the prior sentence, this is off of the M-W website:
Main Entry: trans-
Function: prefix
Etymology: Latin trans-, tra- across, beyond, through, so as to change, from trans across, beyond — more at through
1: on or to the other side of : across : beyond
2 a: beyond (a specified chemical element) in the periodic table b: usually italic : trans — compare cis- 2
3: through
4: so or such as to change or transfer
So, in the sense of "across", "beyond", and "through", we are definitely talking about the exact same thing, so why does it sound like we're having an argument?
The disagreement
Is whether or not -intersex- is part of the transgender umbrella. Your comments seem to me to say that you don't believe so.
Inclusion and Distinction
Honey, you're always welcome to share any umbrella I have! I'm truly honored that you're willing to include me in your umbrella group, too!
The reason I'm arguing for a distinction is not for MY benefit, but initially for YOURS. We share mutual enemies, those small-minded, bigoted troglodytes, self-appointed bluenose bastions of theocratic morality -- those smug, self-confident arbiters of The One True Way®. Your reality, the science of your conception, development and birth, and that of every other intersexed individual, is the complete refutation of everything in THEIR arsenal of arguments against granting you and people like you full respect and equality.
My motive is not pure. I want you (i.e. all intersexed people) to use your status, your proven physical nature (you very interesting natural children of God!) to fight back. My ulterior motive is that once the intersexed break the rigid proscriptive arguments of the "biblical two sexes" crowd, the rest of us might catch a break somewhere down the road. But, you are the wedge, the tipping point, the living embodiment of the strongest case for equality in law for persons who do not fit neatly into male/female categories.
I deeply regret if I in any way made you feel like I was trying to exclude you from a community. If anything, I was trying to promote you to a position of political leadership.
As Erin said.
Your initial claim was that intersex is not trans. My interpretation is that trans is short for transgender (or anything that starts with trans-) not merely transsexual.
Intersex Interschmex
Sorry, I have been around this family for long enough to see way too many girls rationalize that they are I/S because they had read about the brain sex VS body sex thing in the 12th week of pregnancy thereby since their brain was female, it was physically female therfore they were I/S. Or whatever fantasy they come up with. A load of horsey pooey fur sure.
I had a friendship with a really nice girl up in the northwest when I lived there. Her business needed the services of my business and I thanked her for keeping it in the family. I am by no means petite and yet she towered over me. I could see her hackles raise as she asked me "what do you mean in the family?" so I explained my comment that it was nice of her to offer me the business since we were both in the trans community. -Wrong thing to say-. Apparently she had deluded herself and anyone else that would listen that she was I/S. Yah right.
My appologies to the rest of you I/S girls that have medically documented conditions.
All the rest of you, please keep it real; there is no shame in being transsexual.
Are You Sure?
Just wonder what you base your assumption that she WASN'T intersexed on? CAIS is rarer than PAIS, which isn't that rare at all. There are a couple of genes involved, both of which regulate receptors for testosterone. (Failure of both results in complete development of a normal-appearing but sterile female, with XY chromosomes and ova-testes that need removal to prevent cancer.) I'm not sure what the rate of Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia is, but taken together, it's thought that these births conservatively result at least 1 in 200.
PAIS, or Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome can result in somewhat but not completely developed male sex organs. The urethral opening may be on the bottom of or below the penis, and the secondary sex characteristics could be anywhere from slightly androgynous to largely female.
Yes sure
And typically when someone keeps people walking on eggshells around a subject like that its because their argument is pretty thin.
In contrast the one true heraphrodite (with mixed genetilia)I have had the pleasure to have known could care less one way or another and would present in whatever gender was appropriate to the occaision. He most frequently presented as a gay male but to a casual onlooker would appear as a crossdressed female. I think the difference here would be the security in ones identity.
I feel too many transsexuals are claiming they are I/S as a way of "putting on heirs" in that it somehow validates their claim of womanhood and possibly give themselves a leg up the tranny hierarchy as being more "female than thou". I think we have all seen this play out in the community and chat rooms etc. This ladder climbing has even lead to too many TV's having surgery with predictable results.
Maybe this will be less of an issue if they ever drop transsexuality from the DSM-IV but I do not see this happening anytime soon. I can certainly see why people would want to distance themselves from it if they were going to get thrown in with Anne's autogynophillia crap.
Our socially binary world is still intolerant of the spectrum of lifestyle possibilities that Mother Nature has cooked up for us. Millie, my therapist who wrote "True Selves" was clear that her objective was not to get us to be one or the other but to find a point along the continuum where we were okay and to learn to be comfortable there. Hopefully avoiding having to do the damage control that follows when the wrong candidate goes off to surgery.
I realize that
But the general way that my docs over the years have denoted it is by writing it as XX/XXY -- I just left out the '/' part. If you notice, though, I didn't say transsexual, I said transgender. Between male and female, even though we all know there are a multitude of choices between there the vast majority of folks will only acknowledge one or the other in a supposed binary system. Anyone that doesn't fit that binary is therefore... transgender.
As to the transsexual part, you pointed out that it's defined as a psychological situation. I was raised as a boy, even when I started my period at 12 (I hid that from most of my family, including my mom), and after I came out to my mother when I was 14. I had to bind my breasts (okay, they were small, but they were there) and still attend school as a boy. When I went to college is when I decided that I wasn't having any of THAT anymore. So, despite being intersex/chimera/TG... I fit the definition of TS, too. Though I most often Identify myself as "TG" and be done with it -- if more information comes along, it comes out that I'm IS... and invariably the argument over whether or not I "belong" to the T* community starts. Like this.
To be transgender is to be between genders -- and by "genders" it is meant only the two present in the assumed binary system. I am, indeed, between male and female, so in response to your based claim, I would base a claim that ANYONE who is intersexed is AUTOMATICALLY transgender -- not necessarily transsexual.
I appreciate your pointing out that I am "the natural order" because, well, I've never really been ashamed of who and what I am. However, please don't use that to exclude me from the community... whether intentional or incidental. I am proud of my "activist-y" bits of my past, before I really knew ALL the medical weirdness of me -- before I knew about the chimera bit, for example. I have never -ever- taken it as an "insult" to be included amongst the TG populace (or even when anyone who was gender variant was considered TS), but rather kind of flattered to be considered part of such a courageous lot! I don't particularly think of myself as courageous (never have), though I've had MANY people describe me as (accuse me of?) being stalwart in the face of adversity.
By the way, this response does NOT mean I'm angry at you! :P
YOU don't have to be in the Profoundly Delusional Box
You have some legitimate claim to demand a LIFE!
I mean only good for you and I want to see you have all in life that you are entitled to. You have a lot of recourse on this stuff and if what the bastard did to you was not illegal where you live, then you need to leave if you can.
From a medical point of view, you have a right to claim your chosen gender and IMHO, a much stronger claim to justice than I do. Though, I feel I have little to complain about, because truely my physical disability and not my transgender status is my only real problem.
I also feel that I live in a place where I would otherwise have a good chance to get a job. Here there are a sizable number of companies, Nike among them who are Transgender supportive.
So I am asking a question that only you can know the answer to. What are you willing to do for your self to see to it that you take advantage of the oportunities before you. Oh, I know that are perhaps 50% more intelligent than I am, so please do not allow fear to make it posible for others to take advantage of you.
Many blessings
Gwendolyn
I agree with Gwen
If your stuck living in a place that is holding you back with discrimination move away from it.I moved just about Coast to Coast recently to live in a less prejudice area and to be closer to family.I may do it again depending on how things go in California.Amy
Umm, I'm not sure
but you do live in California if I'm not mistaken and we do have laws concerning predjudice, like you can't be fired or not hired because of who you are. Get an lawyer and sue the son of a bitch, Arecee
I do?
No, I live in Kansas City, Missouri. Over 1000 miles from California.
1700 miles Kansas City to Brawley, CA
My father and I once drove it in just over 26 hours with a stop for a two hour nap somewhere in Colorado, and three short meal/gas/bathroom stops. No, we didn't drive the most direct route which would have been a bit shorter. This was also back when the speed limit in Kansas and New Mexico was 80 with 75 in most other western states. We had my grandfather and a little black dog along. For the life of me, I can't remember why we were in such a hurry. :)
Hugs,
Erin
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
= Give everyone the benefit of the doubt because certainty is a fragile thing that can be shattered by one overlooked fact.
If you look at those laws, by the way...
... they don't cover sexual orientation or gender identity. It's not only perfectly legal to discriminate against GLBTQ, the way the laws are written in many places encourage such practices.
It can be rough out there.
Am still employed with a company since '91, but so tired of the stuff that goes on there. Have been seeking new employment for the past 6 years, but when they meet me, something comes up that defers my chance. They have been very polite with a dismissal.
Hugs, Fran
Hugs, Fran
Not that I really want a Transgender stampede...
Oregon seems to be relatively proactive toward us. There is a strong GBLT organization here and change is happening.
http://www.oregon.gov/BOLI/TA/TA_COL_052008_Transgender_Work...
And the other day, I saw a list of Transgender friendly employers in Oregon. I have two T girl friends who are employed here, one is working for Wells Fargo, and the other is working for a large comercial plumbing supply place. They are both functioning below the level that they would be at if they were not T, but at least there is some progress.
My obstacles at being employed have been my physical condition, and the fact that I have been Borderline Personality Disorder. Apparently, as a male, I was just sooooo good at what I did that people put up with me. As a Woman, I do not have that option, but as I heal from the very abusive trauma of my own religion, and that of my family, I become much more stable. I have also been in an intensive Dialectical Behaviour Therapy program for 2 1/2 years that is really producing change in my life.
I do intend to return to work, but at age 61 it is just harder. Construction is still very red neck dominated here, but that is changing too.
Someday perhaps we will live a normal T life if we desire it.
AND sometimes I wonder if we don't create our own energy, good or bad? Muslims complain that they get descriminated against, but as a Muslimah, I never had anyone treat me badly. When I was a Christian, Pastors said we would be descriminated against for the cause of Christ. I don't think I ever saw a Christian who was doing the will of Jesus being persecuted here in the US. Usually it is simply because they are being obnoxious and sanctimonious.
So far, almost everyone has been really nice to me and I often wonder if it is not simply due to the fact that I SMILE and try to project love and care toward all.
I am not trying to brag here but to be encouraging and inspiriing.
Many Blessings
Gwendolyn
those transgender stampedes
...can be brutal! Had an Uncle who got caught in one. All those pointy heels
messed him up pretty good. Then there's those reckless souls who deliberately
put themselves in harms way- that Running of the Transgendered deal they have
every year over in Spain someplace.
But enough of my bull. I think defining and catagorizing our motley lot
is best left to the individual, however THEY identify, the person inside &
where they feel they fit, since we get enough unbidden "Outside help" defining us.
~~~hugs, Laika
"Government will only recognize 2 genders, male + female,
as assigned at birth-" (In his own words:)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1lugbpMKDU
Transgender Stampede
Holy Cow(s)! Laika you nearly had me in tears thinking of the Running Of The Transgendered in Spain.. (Would they call that Drag Racing in Spain?) the clatter of heavy heals on stone streets, somebody yelling "Dress Sale !!!" up near the head of the crowd to spur them on, a frenetic blurr of chiffon and sequins, the gnashing of spring steel corset busks, the look of sheer terror in the heterosexuals eyes as the foo foo brigade bears down on them.
Where were we?
Transgender Stampedes?
I almost didn't post this because what happened to Edeyn was criminal. I do hope that there is something she can do to help her legal identity match the one she is presenting. That should at least ease some of the problems.
The thing is Laika and MsChristine put this image in my head of a mass of charging TGs waving credit cards screaming "Charge it!" as they rampage down the streets to the shopping district as reckless youths tempt fate by darting across the thoroughfares in front of them. THAT reminded of this race I saw in Sweden? of these women all in heels.
What you all do to me sometimes!
Hugs!
grover
Not to be confused
With Transgendered Stampers?
Welcome to the lowest common denominator Grover. I do not think any of us were making light of Edeyn's situation, it is just a few of us have a distorted sense of free association (its the ADD) so our fundementally sick puppy humor rises to the surface. If we cannot laugh at ourselves somebody please shoot us now.
I've seen the high heel race you speak of on TV. Club TrannyShack in San Francisco has an annual Drag Race down the ally next to the club, they have a handicapping system based on the height of your heels http://www.trannyshack.com/about.html
Oddly enough its a drag club but some emerging TS's go there to get away from the "out in public angst" of the rest of the TG crowd. It is best known for its highly irreverent theatrical sketches on stage after midnight.
Handicapping based on height of heels?
If you run fast enough... you'll be on tippy toes anyways... heels are for braking... not racing :-)
Dayna.
ps. had another thought. if it was a power WALKING RACE... (HEEL-TOE-HEEL-TOE-HEEL-TOE) then I could see handicapping.
The high heeled race
is in Holland on shrove tuesday, and they do it flipping pancakes (and turning ankles?).
Angharad
Angharad
Home is Where You Make It
I noticed some one was from Kansas City. I transisitioned in Kansas not far from Kansas City starting after my return from the Gulf War in 1991. I was living there as a female from 1994 on. Every time I mention this to people they feel sorry for me and I do not understand why. I could not have imaged going through what I did among strangers. Granted, eventually I did leave home, but that is because I am very much an East Coaster and the quiet life of a farm community isn't for me. Like the song says, "You belong to the city, concrete under your feet."
I guess Forrest was right, life is like a box of chocolates.
Nancy Cole
"You may be what you resolve to be."
T.J. Jackson