Author:
(...in a cyber flame-war kinda way.)
I have chatted with a few people on this site and have read quite a bit. I love this site and have always had a fascination with transsexual matters. My first exposure to the concept began when I was very young and my mother broke down near a ladyboy club in PI. Some of the ladies helped my mother get the car running and my Daddy was laughing so hard when I told him about it later. He explained the basic concept and it's piqued my curiosity ever since.
Anyway, not being trans, I have come across a person on television and social media who identifies as female and presents as male. She demands to be addressed using feminine pronouns. She is completely out to the public as well as her family, yet makes no effort to physically transition. This person has been "transitioning" for several years and is financially capable of paying for all necessary surgery, something I think most trans-persons struggle with and consider a major hurdle.
I realize that there are many here that are older, and never really had the opportunity. There are also many who did not try to transition because they felt "too masculine" and didn't want to face the embarrassment and ridicule of not passing. I certainly understand that transgender is a broad spectrum and that there are lots of reasons to present in a manner contrary to personal gender identity. What bothers me is that it seems people that are out as TG and still present against their gender identity are fueling the transphobic reactions of so many extremists who demand that accommodations not be made for people who are transitioning.
I guess my question is....do you feel like someone who does this is cheapening the struggle of those who are already fighting for justice and equality, or do you think she should be applauded?
I hope nobody is offended. I chose not to mention the individual by name because I am truly curious about the situation and do not want to make anyone's life harder.
waif
Comments
I would suspect
that there is more going on than gender dysphoria. That said, it does seem to be unnecessarily confusing to those who meet her.
How do you define transition?
Does someone have to have surgery to have transitioned? Is there any reason why someone who lives full-time as female can't be considered transitioned? (You mention surgery but it's unclear from the rest of that paragraph whether that is your yardstick)
Hugs
-
You can't choose your relatives but you can choose your family.
re: How do you define transition?
tran·si·tion
tranˈziSH(ə)n,tranˈsiSH(ə)n/
noun
1. the process or a period of changing from one state or condition to another.
"students in transition from one program to another"
synonyms: change, passage, move, transformation, conversion, metamorphosis, alteration, handover, changeover
The subject of my question has only changed pronouns as far as I can tell. The person is making no attempt to present as female other than by use of pronouns. Many transgendered people seem to avoid surgery. My own phobia about doctors would definitely weigh on me if I were trying to present as a man but don't want a mastectomy.
Be kind to those who are unkind, tolerant toward those who treat you with intolerance, loving to those who withhold their love, and always smile through the pains of life.
transitioning.....
is a complicated thing. that they are NOT presenting as their claimed gender (just trying to make it clear, not demeaning in anyway), it DOES not seem "normal", not that there is a normal. i hate having to present as male, being called sir, etc (long story but at work i have to be the old me, or lose my job) and most MtF i know are the same. as to surgeries, some are not dysphoric enough to "need" it to live a happy life. there are many Non Op trans, although a good portion are only that way due to funds, or medical issues, not by choice.
now "passing" or "presenting as" a gender, are of course stereotypes, so its hard to say, maybe she is a butch woman, so there is not much of a difference. there are a few who go around looking female, but with beards, etc.
i accept i will probably never be able to afford GCS, and would rather NOT apply for any of the few grants, etc, preferring a young person get it to have a full life, not the little i have left. after all, i have survived for 40+ years as i am, i can finish out the time as i am if i have too. now if i was offered something, or won the lottery, i would in a heart beat (well after the waiting time, electrolysis, etc) have the surgery, just to be fully myself.
like a lot of newer trans woman, i tend to over due the look, mostly skirts dresses, and dressed up, not just lounge wear. if i am getting ready, i want to make an impression/comfirmation of who i am, etc. i am sure in a few years it will wear off, but right now, it is how i cope.
*HUGS*
Teresa L.
Me, Myself and I
I have not transitioned yet, but I am transitioning. I present as male 98% of the time, mostly for family reasons, but everyone I know who "knows"still uses the SHE/HER pronouns and my chosen names. No matter how I'm dressed/presenting unless we are in mixed company. And any time we slip up and do do it with someone new around, that doesn't know, it always turns into an "OK, cool" moment and nothing more.
-Piper
nice
mine is the opposite, for 9 hours a day, 6 days a week, i have to present as male, and everyone at work knows, but still uses sir/guy/man/he/him, etc. my family gets it pretty much (my brother is still struggling, but he is getting better lol)
Teresa L.
Transitioned
Most T folk I know don't think they are complete until the outie is made an innie, and the Counseling folk sort of imply that.
In the culture of Homo Sapiens
They seem stuck on the binary gender model, so if one is going to call them self female they need to try to present that way as much as possible. Many of us don't get very far; being physically very masculine. Before I transitioned, people often thought I was gay, and very feminine, though I never acted out that way and was never attracted to males. But when I transitioned, something flipped on and I was.
Keep in mind that my transition was essentially involuntary, having decided that I loved my children and wife enough to forego becoming a woman. When I fell into the hands of the evil minions of the psychological community and the drug lords, they loaded me up with enough drugs to make me very suggestible and played their mind games with me like I was a fiddle. Years later, off the drugs and done with the psychic daemons, it is clear to me that staying with the family would have been my first choice.
Even after 13 years my family is not willing to reconcile, so it seems best to me to remain a woman. They would want me to get my natural breasts cut off and obediently get back in the abusive little box they had me in before, so I am likely better off this way. I have never had penetrative intercourse and likely will not unless a man were to wed me to himself, and at 70 years old, I am not holding my breath.
There are many reasons that all T folk don't fit in the same box.
Gwen
re: In the culture of Homo Sapiens
This is what I felt was pretty much a prevailing belief until seeing this person speaking public and making no effort to present female in dress, speech, manner, or appearance. On the contrary, she presents herself as very masculine.
Be kind to those who are unkind, tolerant toward those who treat you with intolerance, loving to those who withhold their love, and always smile through the pains of life.
Don't see this is new
Lesbian culture have stone butches, diesel dykes.
I can see some folks getting offended by this person.
But in the end it's all up to each trans person, pre-transition, pre-op, post op...in between, binary, non-binary there's no right transition.
There's no right way to be trans, there no room for "more trans than thou"
Bailey Summers
Different Horses For Different Courses
As is frequently said, gender is a spectrum, not either/or. In different places at different times people have tried to impose some set of rules or guidelines on what one has to do to be considered to have changed genders. None of them have managed to cover the full range. Doctors and politicians have been in the forefront of these efforts. Politicians want to ban it or prevent it in some way. I think it was Sweden that required a person be sterilized before they could change the various documents, for example.
Doctors feel it is their right to control what happens, with early efforts at treating it as a mental illness. That opened the door for the various psych disciplines to control everything. It has finally been declassified as a mental illness, but the system hasn't changed appreciably. I suspect the regular MDs are fairly happy with the way things are, it gives them some protection from malpractice claims.
That leaves the head shrinkers. They are a mixed bag at best. Many still accept the old mental disorder theory. They get to play tin god and decree who may not move on to purely physical remodeling. Others accept that being trans is legit, but playing gatekeeper strokes their ego. Often the barriers they throw up, 'to insure the right thing is being done', result in a less then satisfactory appearance.
This leads us to the so-called "non-op" people. Those are the ones that for whatever reason can't or don't take the physical changes path. Here again, you have a range of behavior. There are people that are happy dressing as their preferred gender. These are often confused with crossdressers, but that is a whole different ball of wax. Along that spectrum you find people like the one you are talking about. They are happy to be accorded the status, with the use of the proper pronouns and such. They have no interest in the physical aspect, they are happy as they are.
So does this person "cheapen" or devalue what many of us dearly want? It may seem that way, and many that oppose us gleefully seize on them as examples to support their views. Even to a number of people that are fighting the battle to look and be what they so dearly want, people like this can be upsetting.
But, as my brother says, "Whatever floats your boat". What right do we have to impose our beliefs on them? We are fighting a battle to keep people from imposing their beliefs on us, we'd rightfully be called hypocrites if we tried to do that to them. Really, this is a case of 'I got mine, you get yours', whatever that may be. I would not deny another person their chance to be happy, as long as they don't want to be serial killers, terrorists, or Baptists. JK, everybody. The line is, "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose". To be truely happy with yourself and your life is a rare thing these days, its not my place to control how you get there.
So excuse my verbosity, the short answer is no, it doesn't cheapen our efforts. I hope this all makes sense.
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
"many that oppose us..."
I want to clarify something just to be sure I'm not misunderstood.
I think there are two genders (with the exception of intersexed individuals), but there's fluidity within a broad range of self-identity. I understand that there are asexual persons who do not identify strongly with either gender and there are those who strongly identify with the opposite gender of their birth. With that said, I believe everyone is within their rights to quantify their own self-identity. I do not think I have the right to make someone else be anything just to satisfy my own perception of them. It causes me no pain or suffering for you to live within your own reality.
I have a deep sympathy, especially for the older trans-persons because they are not young enough to take advantage of the many advances in HRT, GRS and other cosmetic procedures that can help them find comfort within their self-identity. It horrifies me to think of what my own life would be like if I were forced to live within a physical prison. It is heartbreaking to read many of the stories on this site, and easily understandable why the suicide rate is so high.
My issue with the individual is that the person seems to be making an income and building a career as a transgender advocate and spokesperson while making no more effort to transition than any other politician. It has always bothered me when leaders of any given movement seem to only pay lip service to those they claim to represent. To my point of view, it would be like Mike Pence announcing he is transgender, but continuing to outwardly present as he now does. It seems that if I were transgender I should want to be identified as male and present as much masculinity as I could, despite the fact I'm very tiny. If I wanted and demanded that others accept me as my own gender identity, I owe it to them to make some effort to present as such.
Be kind to those who are unkind, tolerant toward those who treat you with intolerance, loving to those who withhold their love, and always smile through the pains of life.
Agree to disagree
I don't think there is any misunderstanding, I just don't happen to agree with you. That's alright, everybody has a right to hold and express their opinions.
One thing, I don't owe anybody the requirement to live my life as they'd wish. That's a battle I've been fighting since early in my life. In the end I have enough on my plate meeting my own expectations. I won't live a certain way in order to satisfy their expectations. I suppose that makes me a bit self-centered, but I reserve the right to go to hell in my own fashion, logical inconsistencies and all.
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
Not at all
You should never have to live your life by anyone's expectations than your own. My problem with the person I posed this question about is not how she chooses to define herself. Rather it is about how she uses it as a source of income. I think that everyone has the right to their own lifestyle as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I posed the question because I was curious whether the person's chosen presentation, or lack of same hurts those who already suffer enough humiliation, judgment, and abuse because it feeds the narrative of bigots and transphobic people.
My beliefs are my own and disagreement in a civil discourse is healthy as it can bring light to the topic and motivate understanding between disparate individuals. I certainly have no right to claim that my opinions or beliefs have more weight than anyone else's.
Be kind to those who are unkind, tolerant toward those who treat you with intolerance, loving to those who withhold their love, and always smile through the pains of life.
I think motive needs to be understood.
Is this person sincere or just taking the piss? If sincere, I don't have a problem with it though I wouldn't want to be associated with them. Then it's 30 years ago that I transitioned so things have changed, boundaries have softened. It concerns me that in the UK, people who don't want surgery can apply to change their birth certificates to have the same status as those of us who've had surgery, which I'm not happy about, but then I had surgery to feel more complete in myself not for other people and as far as I'm concerned I'm what it says on my birth certificate, female, end of.
Angharad
IMHO
How you present, is how you want to be treated. If you want to be treated as a female you present as female. If you want to be treated as male you present as male.
Few (if any) want to be treated as freaks. For many the choice to present as their chosen gender, can bring ridicule, rejection, and physical danger. Fear of these things stops many.
Presenting as one gender, while demanding to be addressed as the other is not transitioning. I would label it a protest against the binary gender system, which is at the root of all this confusion.
In my version of a perfect world, people would be able to present as their chosen gender, and be treated as such regaudless of DNA, gender plumbing (natural or not), sexual peference, other peoples religion, or how well they "pass".
I Would Consider This Person
As a performance artist, trying to be controversial. Some call themselves Gender Fuck (or fucked or fucks).
>> Few (if any) want to be treated as freaks. <<
But for whatever reason, this one does. I can't ascribe motive and can't say if they're try to help or hurt Tpeople. It is probably about themselves, not any of us.
Hugs and Bright Blessings,
Renee