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I've been reading some stuff on the net, stories and opinion pieces and my mind drifted back to what sometimes pops up here. So please, let me ask a question.
Would you spank a child?
Beyond that we see petticoat punishment being used around here in stories. But if you ran into something like this would you support it? Would you yourself use it?
My personal opinions.
No. For both.
I would not spank a child because I was spanked ruthlessly growing up, it made me a bit resentful of authority figures and scared of being hurt. As for petticoat punishment, i don't see it being an effective means of discipline. While the Season's stories may suggest otherwise, my (perhaps cynical) view is that such punishment would not lead the person to 'embrace their feminine nature' but resent it. Resent things feminine and act even worse.
Alternatively it may make someone reject their own masculine identity entirely, seeing it as being bad, which would also be a problem I think as it puts you right back at square one.
hmmm...I wonder if anyone's ever written something like that....
Comments
There's corporal punishment
and there's corporal punishment. A quick smack can reinforce a message more than just verbal warnings. I think I only smacked my two about half a dozen times and it wasn't hard enough to do more than show I meant what I said. Usually, they only needed to be told but occasionally they ignored verbal warnings to stop doing whatever and then they faced the consequences. I talked to my daughter about it a while ago and she said it didn't do her any harm. When they got older, we punished them by withholding treats or pocket money.
Petticoat punishment is weird, since when did being a girl become a negative thing? There's something unsavoury about it and how do you punish a naughty daughter? Make her dress up like a girl? Duh!
Angharad
Petticoat discipline is a
Petticoat discipline is a strange thing to people _nowadays_.
a hundred years go, on the other hand, it wasn't. Boys and girls were both dressed in, basically, dresses. (we're referring to the upper middle and nobility, mostly). Why? Probably because diapers were difficult enough to deal with without pulling trousers off repeatedly. Keep in mind that the safety pin wasn't developed until 1849 (or so).
In any case, when boys were old enough, they graduated to 'short pants', instead of dresses. If they misbehaved, they were put back in the dresses. It was to show that they were acting like infants. Girls would graduate to more complicated dresses (and hairstyles).
As for corporal punishment - I'm for it. Unlike some people, I don't see positive reinforcement working, and it certainly doesn't work quickly. My daughter? She's got a butt of iron, and a head to match. It sometimes takes _my_ hand hurting for her to get the point. (Even so, she's mostly forgotten it before my hand quits hurting). Do I use other objects? No - I want to get the point across, not injure her. A swat on the ass for her.. maybe twice a month? an outright spanking? So far, only about once a year. Yes, she takes after her father. I won't deny it.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
define spanking
if you define spanking as a severe whooping, then never. if you define it by one or two light taps on the but with the hand to get their attention before the real punishment, then okay. people have the ability to let punishment go in one ear and out the other so sometimes you need to do something to get their attention so the punishment will teach them a lesson, but a light spanking should be a last resort and never in anger.
You'd probably slug me.
Father to son: "If I spanked your brother, he would take it in stride."
Son: "What do you think would happen if you spanked me?"
Father: "You'd probably slug me."
I have corporal punishment in some of my stories. Sometimes it simply depends on the mood I'm in when I'm writing a particular section of a particular story. Usually rebellion occurs, perhaps not immediately.
-- Daphne Xu (a page of contents)
It depends
For kids of a certain age (usually between 1 and 4, depending on the kid) light spanking is sometimes the only discipline that works. Beyond that age a properly raised kid does not need spanking. When discipline is needed, other methods do better. Heavier spanking is unacceptable for me.
As for petticoat punishment, so far I haven't seen a real-life situation when it would do any good. Turning the kid to extremes appears far more probable.
As I posted above, in the
As I posted above, in the modern age, it doesn't make any sense. It did make sense a very long time ago. Nowadays we have these great diapers that are easy to put on and off, but hold well, and the trousers are easy to remove (velcro, zippers, snaps). Can you imagine changing a diaper if you had to untie everything?
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
Basically, no.
I have two sons who are now in their 20's.
I never spanked them or hit them. Not because of any principle, but because I never saw a situation where I could imagine it doing any good. Other punishments never really worked with them (we got lots of advice about how to punish them, only they called it "consequences") and neither corporal nor non-corporal punishments worked with me when I was a kid, so why would I think hitting them would work? What worked was thinking several steps ahead of them and simply arranging things so they'd do what I thought they needed to do. And adjusting my expectations. They're not defiant or intentionally bad kids, they're just, well, they're who they are and you're not going to change them so you may as well just figure out how to live with them as they are. (The same could be said for me, and a lot of people in my family.)
There was one time when my older son was pushing the younger one around in the snow, no matter how I tried to get him to stop, and I lost it and grabbed him and stuffed snow down his shirt. My idea, such as it was, was to give him some idea of what it was like to get pushed into the snow. To my utter amazement, it seemed to work; at least the older one stopped harrassing his brother.
And there were a couple of times when I needed them to do something and they kept on doing whatever they were doing as if I weren't there (I don't remember the circumstances) and I told them if they didn't do X I would give them a cold shower. With the older one, there was one time when I got him as far as the shower. The older one actually got doused on two occasions. (FWIW, I didn't keep him in the cold shower, just held him in long enough to get wet.)
So I think of punishment (spanking included) as useful mostly for the shock value, when you need to give them a jolt.
But we're talking about kids, and there's nothing that works for all of them. (Well, loving them comes close.) As they say, YMMV.
You _did_ use corporal
You _did_ use corporal punishment. What that means is punishment to the corpus - the body. It doesn't have to be a beating - stuffing snow into the shirt is an excellent example of how corporal punishment can work without having to injure anyone. A cold shower is the same thing. It just means you found ways to punish without having to pull out a cane.
As for me? My mother used a leather belt. That's mostly because I had a very high pain threshold - it took a lot to get through to me. Did it harm me? No. Did it work? Yes. Did she do what _her_ parents did? No. My grandfather forced them to get their own switch, and if it wasn't big enough, they got MORE punishment.
Capital punishment? YES, it works. What people seem to fail to realize is that capital punishment isn't punishment. It's the only way to guarantee that someone who has proven they are a threat to society, and are almost certainly likely to do it again, will never do it again. (I'll leave out the diatribe on how the justice/punishment/reformation system is screwed up. It has nothing to do with the thread).
Anyway - the best way to train dogs, cats, and children is the same - a combination of positive and negative reinforcement. That doesn't mean beating until someone is bleeding. (Although, for adults, I've never had a huge problem with that sort of thing - as long as that's the end of it. )
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
corporal punishment?
I must say that sometimes I think it is necessary. That being said, I don't think I spanked my kids more than a handful of times (Pun intended) There used to be a section in the Criminal Code of Canada that made it legal, but the Supreme Court (in their infinite wisdom) struck that section down. I do not believe in "wait until Dad gets home" I feel that is part of the problem with society these days, that punishment is postponed so long that the children forget what they are being punished for. I'm all in favour or a short sharp immediate punishment. Merry Christmas to all!!! (or Happy Holidays, whatever they are for you!!!)
dougstaxi
Corporal Punishment - No No No
I was subjected to corporal punishment as a child. Some was rather severe. I don't believe it had any positive impact.
In college I was deep into behavioral psychology and can tell you that after countless hours in a lab with an operant conditioning chamber and white holstein rats that negative reinforcement is extremely worthless for modifying behavior.
I didn't use corporal punishment on my four children. At three A.M. it is one of the things I ask myself about. They're all pretty good people (25 to 41). I regret the times I raised my hand to each of them, once each, and then quite lightly.
To me corporal punishment begs the question of where do you stop.
I think capital punishment is highly questionable and used much too often.
Petticoat punishment is a strange affair. I wrote a story about the psychological harm done to a person through forced feminization as a child. It's called Residue. You can read it in Hatbox. Quite dark.
I don't condemn those who use corporal punishment, but it isn't something I would ever endorse.
Angela Rasch (Jill M I)
Spanking
Most of my stories have an incident where our protagonist's (usually female) romantic interest gives her a spanking, and that results in even more romance.
As to spanking a child, none of my stories have gone that way. I would now be in the camp of a swat or two. I was extremely brutalized as a child and that carried forward to my own children until I realized what I was doing and got help.
The oldest were born in 67' and 69' and our youngest was born in 83'. She was lightly spanked once by me and another time she got it from a teacher. I have not seen her in 11 years, but she used to bitterly complain if the matter came up.
Gwen
I'm curious ...
Was she complaining about the spankings, or lack thereof?
My personal philosophy is straightforward ...
At least, I think so. Starting from the question, exactly what is "cruel and unusual punishment"?
If it is not at least interpretable as "cruel", is it punishment at all?
If it is not unusual, which is to say uncommon or rare, then it's torture.
Having said that, I can honestly say I've never had to spank anyone. My particular trick is to pick up the offender (which has a certain impact of its own, given that I stand 4'5") by whatever handle is most convenient, reposition them until I am glaring directly into their eyes at close range, and asking them in the most aggressive voice I have just what the HELL they were thinking. When you do this to a fourteen-year-old who's almost a foot taller than you are it gets the point across surprisingly well.
Of course,
one of the sadder moments of my life is when my younger brother, by some five years, picked ME up and carried me off, despite my best efforts to the contrary.
The only thing saving any scrap of my dignity at that point was that he is just under seven feet tall, built along the lines of a mountain gorilla, and had been witnessed to carry off a '305 Chev engine block single-handed. There are very few people I firmly believe he couldn't carry off, up to and including Hulk Hogan if he had been so inclined.
You weren't spanked.
At least not by my definition of a spanking. There's a big difference between being spanked and being whipped. Most people who are against corporal punishment think of whippings being spankings. I've spanked both of my daughters and my grandson. I would have spanked my granddaughter, but she's never misbehaved in my care.
Let me describe a real spanking. I'll start by establishing rules for spanking.
1. Never administer a spanking when angry.
This is the most important rule.
2. The child must submit willing to the spanking. This means the child must see the justice in being punished. They must be guilty of an infraction of established rules. If a child does something that they should have known was wrong, but there wasn't and established rule prior to the incident then the only just thing to do is explain to the child that what was done is wrong and establish that in the future it will be a spanking offense.
When a child is caught doing something that would call for a spanking they must be informed that they have breached the rules and that a spanking is due as a result. They then should be sent to their room to await the spanking. The adult should then allow enough time to elapse to insure that they are not angry and then a little more time. At the end of the waiting period, the child should be summoned to receive their spanking. It is important that they come to you for the spanking and that you don't go to them.
3. The duration of the spanking should be short. My spankings were simply three sharp swats across the buttocks, using my open hand. I never used and instrument such as a wooden spoon, yardstick or a belt. Using my open hand allowed me to accurately judge the pain inflicted.
So I say again, you weren't spanked you were whipped. My father whipped me once with a belt and he did it in anger I got a whole lot more than three swats and I didn't submit to it, I was forced to endure it. The source of my rules regarding using an instrument and spanking in anger.
It is important to note that spankings should not be the only punishment in your arsenal.
Done properly a spanking can be a useful tool in teaching a child to submit to authority. I've heard it said that if you spank often before the child is two, then you don't need to do it much after they are three. I'm not so sure about to often part. But my brother-in-law said that if you don't have your child whipped into shape by the time they're three, you have an uphill battle until they are eighteen and you can kick them out.
What I'm saying here is the discipline needs to be established early in a child's life. It starts with spanking of the hands (holding the child's hand and one of yours and swatting it with your other) when the child touches something after being told not to. Once this is established as punishment when they try to touch something they shouldn't you say, "No, no. Spank a hand," and they then learn there are consequences for braking the rules. This starts as soon as they are ambulatory.
Of course it's also important that you have a strong relationship the the child as a loving parent and not only a disciplinarian. You have to demonstrate that you love them by this. Overall the love should far outweigh the discipline.
Hugs
Patricia
Happiness is being all dressed up and HAVING some place to go.
Semper in femineo gerunt
Ich bin eine Mann
punishment
I can't see petticoat punishment as either appropriate or effective, ever.
The problem with corporal punishment is it needs to be administered with love not anger, and that is usually not the case. Usually corporal punishment means the parent needs a course in anger management. Also it needs to be used very sparingly, and not escalated if ineffective.
can of worms.
this just opens a huge can of worms.
Would i spank a child for being bad? Yes. HOW I would spank them is different. They would have to know that what they did was bad and the spanking would be a hard slap on the butt once as the finale of the whole thing.
However I also firmly believe that schools should have an enforced uniform code and truant officers again. During the time we did have those things were a LOT less problimatic as they are now.
Strangely enough when canada finally seperated from england in 1969, yes that recent, the school rules drasically changed. AS such gangs, and children misbehaving became a serious problem quickly.
Why is that? well you put a girl in a dress and she will behave more ladylike weather she wants to or not. Boys not so much.
Put a boy in suit pants, dress shirt and tie and they are less likely to get all rough and messed up. Girls ...not so much.
leave either sex in *rough clothes* t shirts and jeans and its like all out war.
Just some observations I have made over the years. To me the problems we face are part parents and huge part society.
Society's to blame? Right.
Society's to blame? Right. We'll arrest them then.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
depends on the Child
I've seen some very hard headed children that would take a spanking just to turn around and stick thier toungs out at you.
For those types i use military-type IT... basically forced exercises.....Standing in the corner doesnt work? then make em do it while standing on thier tip-toes... after an hour they'll be swearing to any god that'll listen that they'll be good. (just gotta watch em to make sure they dont cheat, cuz they will)
tell them to put up their plate and the smart ass holds it over his head? well keep it there!.... 15 minutes of that and they'll be wanting to run to the kitchen to clean thier plate, but why stop there when you can make em clean the kitchen too as further punishment.
For most kids though the threat of a good spanking is pretty good deterrant... long as you follow through on your promises to do it. But spanking in general is really only effective up until the early teens, around 12-13 after that you gotta get inventive
Teenager with a messy room that refuses to clean it? take *everything* dump it in a big pile in the middle of the floor.. clothes, bedsheets, kicknacks, the dresser drawers everything.... then stand there and demand they clean up....and time them, give them like 10 minutes to get it clean before everything goes back into the pile (just to ensure their good and pissed at you) yeah they'll be mad for a while, but it *will* get your point across to them.
be consistent
one lesson my dad told me was to be consistent in enforcing the rules. how you enforce the rules is up to you but do not be super light on punishment sometimes and super heavy on punishments at other times. kids get their security from knowing the rules and what happens when they break them. the more inconsistent you are, the more they will test you to know where their boundaries are so they can feel secure.
The Difference
What is the difference between a seven-year-old and a seventeen-year-old stung by a bee? Often, the latter will just brush it off while the former screams in agony. This, plus the vastly greater strength of the adult over the child, means that straight fighting back is useless for a seven-year-old. However, it would be a crowning moment of awesome if the seven-year-old's seventeen-year-old sibling came to his rescue -- perhaps with a sharp lash of his belt on the spanker, or a kick to his side. Maybe even a mere oral response might suffice:
"Let go of him! If you hurt him again, I'll kill you!"
-- Daphne Xu (a page of contents)
How many children have you
How many children have you been around? Most teenagers I've been around would simply watch. Some would laugh. I'll be honest - I'm finding your focus on violence rather disturbing.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
MY Focus?
Um, MY focus on violence?!? Does the lash of a belt on a clothed torso really hurt an adult worse than the slamming of a hairbrush (bristle-side down) on the bare bottom of a seven-year-old? (Let alone the lash of a switch or a belt on her.)
But I agree, that kind of response is very rare for anyone, let alone teens. Even I'm usually too cowardly in that respect. That's why I called it a "crowning moment of awesome".
Once, I found myself in the right position for a "blow" against corporal punishment: my mother in law began to swat my niece, and I subtly shifted so that she swatted my arm instead. She jerked her hand away, startled and perhaps embarrassed. To this day, I don't know whether she realizes it was deliberate.
I hope you noticed that I mentioned fairness. Swatting a child for hurting someone (including a cat) is more reasonable than torturing a child for "disobedience" or mild profanity.
-- Daphne Xu (a page of contents)
I've never even heard of
I've never even heard of using a hairbrush bristle side down. The backside, sure. I'm pretty sure I've had that too. I've been belted as well. My mother was too small for her hand to do any good for spanking.
Even a wooden paddle.
My cutoff for corporal punishment is simple. If it leaves welts that last more than an hour - or worse - it's not a punishment tool for children. (I don't really have issues with lashes or caning for adults as a punishment. I'd prefer someone was caned than locked away for 3 years. The first is a punishment for an action. The second trains them to be better at being a criminal.) If you're going to use a belt - if it's narrower than an inch and a half, or it's very thin at the edge, that's a weapon, not a punishment tool.
My daughter? Those swats I've been talking about? She has _my_ pain threshold. I don't even notice being injured most of the time. To get her attention for two minutes, my hand has to hurt more than her butt. At the end of two minutes - you couldn't tell that she was whacked by her behaviour.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
There's Always a First.
"I've never even heard of using a hairbrush bristle side down."
Now you have, from someone with personal experience, goddammit. No doubt, I had a far lower pain threshold than you.
No doubt you never heard of someone waking up after midnight, jumping around and lashing the air with a belt, all sorts of thoughts running through the brain. I think that even a failed attempt at action -- fighting back -- would have helped my self-respect and severe anxiety -- if not with myself, then with my brother when I was much older.
At least my parents knew about my resentment. And I did manage to tell them off at one point.
-- Daphne Xu (a page of contents)