So, I work Midnight's at a international convenience store, and have a customer that is so far right he makes Donald Trump look mild. He's against gender equality, abortions (I'm going to hell as I don't believe it's any of my business what another person does with his or her body) and he believes that anyone in the LGBT community will even be rejected by Satan himself.
He told me "God doesn't make mistakes. Members of the LGBT community choose to live this lifestyle. A good religious treatment center will cure them of the sin."
Well now, I couldn't let it go unchallenged, so I possed the following questions to him: when a child is born deaf or blind, did God make a mistake? Missing one or more limbs, did God make a mistake? How about Downs Syndrome? Autism?
Well, his response was a look of shock, then proceeded to tell me that Satan entered the womb and brought these calamities upon the fetus to wreck havoc on the parents because while the fetus was the work of God, the parents had succumbed to the whispers of Satan at some point in their lives, then rejected Satan and returned to the teachings of God. Satan was now punishing the parents for their rejection!
Really?
Ok, so to all of my brothers and sisters, sit down, have a drink/shot or beer, toast Satan, and thank him for your parents transgressions.
No one, and I mean no one that I know that is a member of the LGBT community would ever choose this community knowingly. It's hard. From being ostracised by your family and friends, employer's refusal to allow you transition in the workplace, threats to your person/body, and the high suicide rate in our community, who would knowingly select this lifestyle with open arms and embrace it?
Comments
So?
So is this guy saying that congenital defects such as cleft palate or holes in the heart shouldn't be repaired because you have to stay as you are born.
I consider myself to be a fundamental Christian. By that I mean that ibelaive what the bible says, not what I want it to say. This guy is missing the most fundamental principle of the New Testament. God is love! He loves all his children all of us no matter who we are or what we do.
This idiot who gives God a bad name needs to read what the bible (Matthew in particular) says about judging others and how all have sinned and fallen short of the grace of God.
In my opinion by taking parts of scripture to create a God to suit his prejudices he becomes an idolator, creating a God in his image instead of accepting he is made in God's image by accepting all of scripture.
Ok sorry rant over but these people do so much damage that it really annoys me.
A 2 hour rant.
It took two hours listening to his rant before he would leave. I myself am a Deacon and Elder in my denomination and couldn't believe what I was hearing from him. It started with refusing to answer the question: "Are you pro-life or pro-choice?". He's one of those people that want to inject religion into politics.
I politely declined to answer his question. He informed me that politics and religion go hand in hand. So, since he is also a known gun rights advocate, I looked at him and stated the obvious, let's just suspend the constitution and do away with all rights, including the second amendment which would take away his guns! There was a reason for the separation of church and state, and that religion has no place in politics. He was so dumbfounded and ticked off that he left and hasn't been back!
I really enjoyed shooting him down!
Red Dog
Overgeneralizing can be a problem.
One of the first steps to winning a debate is not to overgeneralize. And the term, "religious right", is overgeneralizing. It is a catch all religious people in this nation. Both the good and the bad. And it is considered by many to be an insult.
Now, I have been reading a number of posts on Big Closet. And a number of the posters have stated they have found more accepting people of religion than they thought there would be.
Also, there are a few members on the LGBT side that would like to see religion banned. But, only a few. Neither side are saints. And if you want to work towards a solution, you need to find and talk to the nice individuals on the other side of the argument, to find the people that will meet you halfway.
Now, I am not saying this because I support one religion, or another. My opinions and experiences, concerning religion, are less than pleasant. But, I am willing to acknowledge different points of view on the matter.
Edit: I did not realize you were a Deacon and Elder. That means you can effect change in the church you are a part of. Though, I hope you understand what I am trying to impart.
There are a lot people on both sides of the issues that feel threatened by those on the opposite side of the issues. Such feelings on both sides need to be soothed, so matters can move forwards in a more constructive fashion.
Nor do I
I just believe that religion has no place in politics. And yes, while there are many more people that consider themselves religious and are very accepting, there are faiths that are not and believe that if you pray hard enough and often enough, you will be "cured.". I believe that to be poppycock and leads to many physiological problems. I lost one friend to suicide because he couldn't deal with social rejection and family rejection.
Never again. If I can save one life because I am open to and accepting of everyone, then my mission in life is complete.
I've seen enough death. More than anyone should have to see. I worked in Mortuary Affairs in the Army for 13 years. The PTSD I suffer is hell. I will not see another friend take his or her life because of someone's narrow mindedness.
Red Dog
Have you considered.
When one side is allowed a voice, and the other side is not, problems will arise.
The problem
is when people of strong religious convictions try to force others to adopt their lifestyle. This is almost always a recipe for disaster.
Another common tactic is only religion can dictate morals. Wrong.
I try to live a Christian life. I treat people with respect, go out of my way to help folks in need. I am afraid of churches in general though, because they do feel they have the right to judge and force their beliefs on me and others.
The same...
Non-religious groups are doing the same thing. Forcing people to adopt to their lifestyle, ideologies, beliefs, etc.
The problem is that groups are forcing other groups to live a certain way. To believe a certain way. And that is wrong.
People should be allowed life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
Yeah,
That's why we have bathroom bills coming out. People are committing suicide because SRS is not medically necessary. How about women's reproductive rights, the bogus and edited videos.
I don't think so.
From my perspective
A lot more of the non-religious groups are pushing less for a forced adoption of lifestyle choices and more insisting that options remain on the table.
Being pro-choice doesn't mean you're going to force people to have an abortion.
Being pro- gay marriage doesn't mean you're going to force a (non-government) person to perform that marriage.
Being all for gender equality doesn't mean you want well-qualified men to lose their positions.
All that these things mean is that you want everyone to have the option, the CHOICE, to live their life and make their own choices. It has nothing to do with agreeing with these choices, or adopting them as your own: it simply means that you're expected to treat others's ways of life with the same dignity and respect you expect in your own.
I currently live in a very racist area, to the point that just a few days ago I was sitting in the break room at work when a nearby table began a sort of round-robin discussion of how "getting rid of the blacks and mexicans" would fix America's crime rates and such. I've shared my own views on racial equality and judging people on an individual level rather than preconceived ideas due to their race or economic background before, so this time I simply did my best to ignore what they were saying despite how angry it was making me. After break was over, I pulled a couple of the people from the group who I respected most over and asked them if they would warn me next time they intended to start talking that way or sharing those opinions so I could leave before they did so.
The first response I got was anger, partially because I didn't agree with them -- and whoo boy did I DISAGREE! -- but they also tried to claim I was stifling their freedom of speech by wanting them to warn me first so I could leave the room. I didn't bring up the company's anti-racism policy -- partially because one of them was a manager. Instead, I stopped them cold by explaining that I wasn't stopping them talking about it at all: I was merely asking them for the courtesy of the option not to listen.
That's the difference there: granting someone the courtesy to have their own ways or views, even if you disagree with them.
That's also what so many people -- on both sides, though predominantly the Extremist Christian-oriented Right -- have trouble grasping. For all of their arguments about gun rights, freedom of speech, etc. they fail to see that those rights come from the same principles of fairness and acceptance that are why so many other things SHOULD be allowed.
Then again, what do I know? I'm a leftist democratic socialist, so I'm pretty much the devil in their eyes anyhow.
Melanie E.
You got it right in one
And that is something that burns me when such conservatives start throwing around their hate, especially the religious reich. And a reich is appropriate for after, all, they want to establish a dominion where only their beliefs matter and everybody goosesteps to their tune. Goddess forbid you disagree with them, all of sudden you 'hate' them. No, I do not, but those folks are acting to SUPPRESS me all the while they demand that I listen and respect their 'views' since they are so secure in their moral superiority.
God must be a practical joker
'God doesn't make mistakes'
My wife's middle daughter has severe disabilities, she cannot swallow properly among others. She is a bright and lovely child (yes I am biased), but anyone who thinks that nature gives us perfect beings is unwilling to look at nature.
God Knows What He's Doing
He's just not very good at poker.
https://youtu.be/4_G9awnDCmg
Just a brief word?
There are several folks within this community who identify themselves as Christians? And most of the folks I know who do believe don't believe anything remotely what was presented to you. Easy enough to say but not so easy to demonstrate via the words I write here. And it's never a wonder why so many folks are reluctant to embrace expressions of faith, since the words spoken to you are hateful and harmful and don't at all express the love of Christ. I'm a very poor example of that myself, as some might attest. But there are some precious folks who do belong to and love the LGBT community who profess faiths of all kinds or no faith at all.
A personal note? First, when my sister was suffering from a long-term condition with her spinal fluid, she had lost nearly 80% of her vision in one eye. A very well meaning and completely ignorant person from a church other than her own offered to pray with her while at the same time insisting there must be some deep seeded sin in her life to cause her to be afflicted. A hormonal imbalance that caused her system to overproduce spinal fluid and not her lack of faith. But she was hurt. She stopped going to church, and only at the end of her life did she return; finding a community who understood her hurt and pain and embraced her and her husband.
Also. I've said a few things in recent weeks on line and here that I am very sorry for. First, because I hurt someone who didn't deserve or need to deal with my foolish assumptions. Second; the assumptions were arrogant and based on my foolish need to be right when I was neither right nor kind. I'm very sorry since she's a member of this community and also a 'fellow' believer. For that I was entirely wrong and I am truly sorry since it was not only hurtful but a horrible testimony to the faith which I profess. My apologies to her and to you, dear one. Thanks for the blog.
Love, Andrea Lena
my two cents (which are probably worth zilch)
I too consider myself christian. but i know that the "Bible" as it exists today is NOT necessarily what was written long ago, NOR is it necessarily exactly gods words. man has "interpreted" those words through his life experience filters, memory errors etc. add in mis-translations, both intentional and accidental, and you have a loosely accurate, at best, set of beliefs. Knowing this, i still try to learn from the lessons presented. a lot of the "hard right, fundamentalists" like the person you encountered "cherry pick" what they want to believe, or have been fed a "slanted" interpretation. pretty clear in Hebrew 8:13 that the "old covenant" IE the old testament, the book with all the bad things against gays, etc, was made defunct by the coming of jesus. one way i try to put it to people is this. God created man, man was given free will, and was NOT meant to be perfect, those were called angels, a status we all strive to achieve, right? well in Gods unfortunate "gift" of free will, we started doing things he didnt like, he tried "tough love" but it didnt work, short term yes, but not long term, so eventually he tried a different approach, sending JC and becoming a loving caring god vs the wrathful one. while it was abused by many power hungry and greedy people, more people followed the core teachings of JC, so it worked, but was twisted by those who could for their own means unfortunately.
Those who pick and chose scriptures to fit what they THINK is right, are like rules lawyers, trying to make someone out as a cheater for something not totally covered specifically, but twisting things to fit THEIR way of wanting it to be judged.
On the religion in politics and morals. no you do NOT need to be religious to be moral. for some it is a guide for those with weak convictions, etc. that is all. most of our founding fathers were religious in one way or another, but they ALL said that the nation will NOT support or foster any religion over another. it does NOT say that when entering government service you have to leave those convictions at the door, it also doesnt say you can force your beliefs on others, or have others forced on YOU. if that was so, why does almost every government building made before the 50-60's have biblical references on them? granted no quotes of Judaism or Islamic faith, because they are so few in numbers in early years at least i would guess, hard to get real numbers as they didnt have great record keeping back then on such things, also it was not thought to be important to track, they were inclusive, not exclusive. you have to really look at the time, word meanings and USAGE at the time, etc.
now having said all that, here is something to have in mind or in hand next time. there are some linguists that have been studying the dead sea scrolls "originals" of what is in the bible. words are showing up that are NOT what we see today. such as the word that has become translated as homosexuals. these linguists have found the original word used is MORE similar (it was a rarely used word, so the mistranslation in case could be purely accidental) to the word that today is equivalent to PEDOPHILE, an adult man who FORCES himself on a young boy or slave NOT two consenting adults.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/homarsen.htm
i also avoid churchs, as the teachings back when i was molested made me think what happened was my fault, bad, etc, and was part of my reason for repressing those memories, and my trans, for over 35 years. i have NEVER found a church i didnt feel wrong in, etc. so i have done a lot of research on my own, etc.
of course your mileage might vary, your beliefs might be different, etc all that is ok. i get along with lots of people who believe differently, its when they have a problem because i fail to "see the right and properness" of their point of view that problems come up.
Teresa L.
Teresa L.
Just to throw something out there.
Keep in mind that when people throw around words like "The Bible", they usually have no clue what they are talking about.
There is "The Bible", often referred to as "The Old Testament", and then there's the "New Testament", which is the Word as supposedly given by the man known as the Christ. (I say that because everything we have is "And he said", by third parties that called themselves his Disciples. It doesn't invalidate the message, I'm just being clear)
The Old Testament, as I understand, actually continues _past_ the New Testament. It's the book of the Israelites, also known as Hebrews, or Jews. The New Testament, on the other hand, is the word of the Prophet Christ - Jesus of Nazareth. Christians follow the NT, Jews follow the OT. Christians should _not_ be using the OT as anything other than reference, as (or so I am given to understand) part of the message in the NT is that it's the _new_ word, _replacing_ the old. Much of it contradicts, or clarifies previous message. In short, it's the 10 commandments (Child rules) vs NT, or more blurry adult rules.
As for religious people in politics? We've had a lot of very devoutly religious people in office. I think that all of the Founding Fathers, for example, were heavy Christian church-goers, but they felt it was extremely important to separate a _specific_ religion from the state. Not that a state can't support religion, but that it can't support _one_ religion over another. (As seen in worship services that happen in schools on the weekends. It happens because any group is allowed to ask and get permission to do so. There's no requirement on what kind it is, as long as they don't set fire to the stage.)
That's where people go wrong. They fail to realize that freedom _of_ religion does not mean freedom _from_ religion. It just means that if you want to throw rotten tomatoes at the guy in the park preaching the end of days, he gets to do the same to you when you preach about the flying spaghetti monsters.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
Religious fanatic
There are some people here that consider me to be a religious fanatic and have bluntly told me so. I'm not preachy but it is a part of my life and my stories and is not negotiable. I don't try to convert anyone. AND there is that aspect of remaining with a faith community to try to get them to wake up and smell the coffee.
It is confusing to me that I have a small loyal following here and the rest either send me nasty PM's or ignore me.
Please try to separate the Psychology from the fanatic that wasted your time. I can't exactly say if he was OC, or what. Perhaps he is one of the few that really should be on his medications? I think that your patience was admirable, because had it been me, I might have thrown him out in about 15 minutes. Loving God does not make me stupid.
Gwen
Don't waste your time
You will never change him. Sadly, like so many false prophets he isn't sharing God's Words, he is spouting his own hateful ideas. I strongly suggest you stop debating him unless you have the time and enjoy talking to a closed mind.
If you want, tell him Barbie Lee said he was full of him self. God frowns on false prophets, those who mislead others in the Word of God. If he really knows the bible. Tell him
Ezekiel 14:10
Revelation 19:20
No one speaks for God except the Holy Ghost, God's messenger. I can tell without a doubt your antagonist wasn't anointed by God.
John 3:34
I promise with all my heart and soul, God loves most everyone born, including the Boy-Girl. There is NO sin in how one is born.
Oklahoma born and raised cowgirl