From the Guardian a story about how one parish convinced a diocese to put a proposal to the General Synod of the Church of England about renaming ceremonies for transgender Christians. While I'm unlikely to consider it as an unbeliever, I welcome what looks like the slightest movement of progress for those who do, and I wish Blackburn Diocese good luck with their motion.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/may/21/proposal-for-...
Comments
I have mixed feelings...
Yes, it is not exactly bad. But on the other hand baptism is not about name. Do you need to rebaptize when you marry and take your husband's name? Do you rebaptize when you change your name just because you hate name given to you by parents?
Why you should rebaptize when you become true to yourself?
And this move is also not all good. First, it is just another media cause to stir public. Second, it is another way to say: "See? This is TG person. He/she is different from the rest of you!" And the thing about basic animal nature is - everyone who is different must die. (Look, for example, at big dogs. Most of the breeds of big dogs will do anything to try to kill small dog, if given chance. Yes, most of the dogs "in the west" are trained not to kill anything, but there were cases when owners of small dogs were hurt by big dogs trying to get to their pets)
So, back to the topic, Russia was listed as one of the least "gay friendly" countries in the world. While in my 40+ years I never heard of a single case of "gay bashing". Never heard of a person being fired for being gay or TG. But lately there are so many posts from american ip addresses about "tolerance" and "LGBT rights" with replies to the effect that "LGBT people are abomination and have to be cured" from the same ip pools. And ... It starts to be more and more dangerous to be L, G, B or T.
And more and more people ask "Why LGBT have to have more rights and support than we?" And it just generates hate where before there was silent indifference with slight amusement.
Social job prejudices
As someone who has been fired from a job because of my coming out as trans, I know what trauma this does to a person. I was a social pariah for 14 months and I moved away because I was black balled in my own town. The bad part is that no one is perfect in their work practices and they will find a reason to fire you which is not related to being who you are. This is to protect themselves against legal action. Reality is that you and everyone around, work or otherwise, know why you were fired.
The church doing this renaming baptism is like the Germans did to the Jew at the start of WWII, mark them all as something to see as abnormal and then later round em up, isolate and kill them. This is not a good thing being done. No matter the goodness of one or two person's intentions, in the end it becomes corrupted and is foul.
Dahlia
The thing is...
In "Soviet Russia" basically you just had to come to the nearest police station derssed as girl to get passport with "female" in the "gender" field. And, actually, an only time you needed your birtht certificate in Russia was when your parents registered your birth to have it marked in _their_ passport that they have a child...
And that caused jealous LGBT people creating recent gay friendliness map to say, that Russia is one of the least gay friendly countries. While there are no cases of TG people being fired for being TG.
15+ years ago my ex preferred stylist was a trans girl. Who moved up in the world so we had not had enough money for my ex to continue using her services. And it had nothing to do with her being openly TG. Only problem was that her service as a hair stylist price tag became too much. And we met a person who was better stylist while charging fraction of the price.
So, once again, Russia has a law prohibiting promotion of being gay among children. But at the same time no law in Russia allows firing a person for sexual or gender preference.
Buf. I am not trying to say that you are wrong. It is just a fact that in my 40+ years living in "Soviet Russia" I never met a case of gay bashing or of any TG related trouble. Yes there was a newspaper article about t-girl becoming suicidal after starting lebian relationship with ex wife after transition. And it was ... 25 years ago.
And once again, I can be biased and it could happen that I don't see a whole picture. Just couple of years ago I happened to understand that some things said to me by my classmates were intended as a method to determine if I was gay or not. (Yes, I am slow, I caught that ploy 20 years after it happened :-) )
And tnere were several cases when gay guys mistook my attempt to be friendly as a sign that I am gay. I am gay. But I am lesbian gay :-) I just feighned ignorance as to what those guys wanted from me and never let on to who asked what why to anybody else...
as a person of faith, but NOT in a "church"
I can easily see the desire. it is just another way to affirm their new status, and help with some naysayers by saying this is the name i am baptized with. also you have converts who might have been baptized in other churchs and want to be in their new "faith" as well. By allowing this, the Church is acknowledging the change and "legitimizing" it for those of faith. (as a baby, they thought i was not going to live, i had an immune deficiency disorder, genetic, and my grandmother convinced my mother to allow me to be baptized as a Mormon, even though my mother had left the church life behind, she did it, she states for her mothers sake, so other than that i have never been baptized)
as to those who feel we are getting "special treatment" they are morons, who either are following some blowhards every word versus using their own brains, or are just plain hateful and religion is their excuse, as thin and poor as it is.
i have issues with "churchs", structured religions, it was part of my reason for locking my true self away after being molested. so while i have faith, i go by how i read the bible, not how someone interprets it FOR me. and yes i know all of the bibles of today are poor copies with errors (intentional or not) in translation, it is what we have to work with. while i know there are a lot of churchs that are now "friendly" i am sorely out of practice following someone elses belief in how the bible reads, what the stories are meant to get across, etc.
Teresa L.
Teresa L.
I find it interesting that
I find it interesting that the comments are using the term 'baptize'. I would consider this more of a christening, not a baptism. Christening is, to be technical, granting a name in the name of Christ. 'Christ-naming'. I was christened in the Episcopalian church, but never baptized.
In that regard, a renaming/christening ceremony makes perfect sense.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
It is very interesting concept. But...
In Russian baptism and christening is the same word with the same meaning.
Word christening is often used colloquially as a sinonym to naming. But as far as church ritual is concerned, baptism is a part of christening ritual (or if you like christening is the last step of baptism ritual). So usually baptism and christening are sinonyms and mean the same thing. In some churches what you call baptism is called confirmation. AFAIK in the Anglican church baptism and christening are one and the same. But you can have confirmation after certain age. (I could be wrong on this one, hope someone from UK will correct me if I'm wrong.)
Baptism, you dunk.
Baptism, you dunk. Christening, you sprinkle.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
What?
In orthodox christian church dunking vs sprinkling is determined only by resources and time available in the partucular church building. If there are more than 10 people desiring baptism/christening at the same date - you only get sprinkling. If you are a single person to be christened/baptized at that particular date - there is a chance that you will get a full treatment with dunking.
And I know some scare stories of baptism. But me, while being proprly baptised at adult age, only got a sprinkle treatment in the process :-)
It depends on the Protestant
It depends on the Protestant sect you belong to (or with). Baptists and Pentocostals, for the extreme example, dunk. It's not a good baptism unless you're completely under water. (Travelling preachers used the local creek or river) They also don't tend to practice christening, which for Episcopalians (and probably Catholics and C of E) is done with holy water from a 'font', and is combined with the child's name being publicly announced.
(As a poke at the practice, Terry Prachett, in Carpe Jugulum, has a character that ended up being named 'Moocow Poorchick'. " 'His full name is James What The Hell's That Cow Doing In Here Poorchick,' said Magrat. " )
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
You are trying to insult me?
I am proper Orthodox (pravoslavniy) christian. I belong to the oldest branch of Christian religion that preceded Catholicism by couple of hundred years ;-)
On the other hand, even this christian branch has nothing to do with Bible... Or my outlook on the world around :-)
Greek Orthodox, or Russian
Greek Orthodox, or Russian Orthodox? Greek Orthodox, technically, would be one of the _two_ oldest branches of Christianity. The other is Monophysite (which is pretty much extinct, thanks to the Greek Orthodox church. They also are responsible for Islam being anything more than a minor cult around the Red Sea)
Catholicism is in that same direct line of descent, although I'm not exactly sure when the split happened - possibly under Constantine.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
Movement is happening
I was a deeply devout person in 2001, and facing my true self, and the church's reaction to me then was awful, as most of you can attest. However people can change their minds. I was shocked to find myself a baptised member of the Mormon church and from the rumblings I hear change is coming though I am not sure how soon.
Mormon church is not a very good example...
Huge percenage of mormons are criminals in most places couple of hundred miles from SLC. Strange thing is, that being polygamist mormon in Ruasia is a criminal misdemeanor. But... There is no fine or prison sentence for being polygamist in the current Russian code :-)
Polygamy has been forbidden
Polygamy has been forbidden in the main LDS church for a very long time. The determination was that it was no longer a necessary practice, as men weren't dying in the proportion that they had in the past. So it's only splinter sects that practice it (and I don't see why people really _care_ as long as it's consenting adults)
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
Problem is...
...In many of religions allowing poligamy age of consent is around 12 or 13 years. And in the quite a few of those girl has no input in deciding who will be her husband.
That's not caused by polygamy
That's not caused by polygamy. That's just another side issue, and it's because the Religion you're talking about (singular) is operating as if it's still 300 BC.
I'll get a life when it's proven and substantiated to be better than what I'm currently experiencing.
Am I the Only One...
…who thinks that what the authorities are saying here is that they're going to let the proposal languish in committee until it's forgotten, and there'll never be a vote?
Eric