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and what is a mary sue? The way I understand is a perfect character, all good and never makes a mistake and everyone loves him. I was told my character Julien comes off as a mary sue.
I didnt think so. Everyone does gravitate to him but that will be explained later.
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It is a delicate Ballance
Delicate in that the character has so many elements that goes into there recipe and all must work together as a gestalt. The flaws are not weaknesses but opportunities to express the humanity of a person and their ways of working around theirs and the flaws of others. That balance prevents a person from winning every time something comes up. I have found in my life that some of my greatest failures became my greatest victories down the road. It is the weird and counter intuitive way real life works out.
With those with open eyes the world reads like a book
The problem I have is that my character isnt entirely human
He is much more and that will be made very clear later. He is nearly perfect and loved by everyone. People gravitate and feel a need to please and follow Julien. The reason will come later.
He has flaws, his vanity and pride and arrogance. I thought I made that clear also but I guess I have to make it even more so. I just didnt want to make him an asshole
Much like changing a story to meet someone else's approval,
I hold the same opinion about doing so to your characters. Namely, don't.
If YOU know who the character is, and the person reflected on-screen is, to you, the person you feel when you write them, then that is all that matters. Re-read your work. Did the character sound and feel to you the way you intended them to? If so, then ignore those who don't like it and move on.
Again, write for YOURSELF first, others second. Or third, or fourth, or twentieth. But never, EVER, let others' opinions decide your story, or characters, for you.
It's your tale to tell, your characters to describe, your WORLD to build. You are, and should, be in control. Otherwise, what's the point?
Melanie E.
Undefinable?
See the Mary Sue entry in TVtropes: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue . Seems like that character is always lovable and perfect except possibly for endearing flaws. Everyone likes her, except for obvious obnoxious persons.
-- Daphne Xu (a page of contents)
Real Mary Sues
And none of us have ever encountered a well-loved person, right? I haven't met more than a half-dozen such people myself. The whole Mary Sue concept annoys me, why shouldn't an author write such a person? If the character annoys somebody that much, then they should feel free to move on to another story. We spend all this time saying writers should write whatever they want, then somebody pops up and says "But you can't write a Mary Sue". I call "B***S***"! Write a character like that if you want to, Jennifer. It IS your story, after all.
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn’t become a king. The palace becomes a circus.” - Turkish Proverb
Wish Fulfillment
A Mary Sue character is usually a character written as an author's wish-fulfillment fantasy. There are no flaws, the character is perfect in every way, all the other characters love the person (except for antagonists), etc. A character needs flaws to be human, we all have them. If your character is totally perfect in every way then it may come off as a Mary Sue.
The answer is simple: make them imperfect.
A person -- or other being of human-like intelligence and emotional expression -- will have shortcomings, personality clashes, things of that nature. They will have their weaknesses, ones that define them as much as their strengths.
A character can be great, even near-perfect, without becoming a Mary Sue -- or Gary Stew, in the case of male characters.
Just write the character the way you want them. Others will ALWAYS complain, because when people read a story, especially in TG fiction, they often want to view the character as a cipher for their own emotional responses and actions. When that isn't what happens, it alarms them: when a character makes better or less selfish choices, it sparks their envy: and when a character does something they cannot see the logic in, it angers them. Don't worry about anyone but yourself: if you like the character, then the character is fine.
Even Mary Sues are fun when the story takes them into account.
Melanie E.
It can be in the eye of the beholder.
What one person considers a 'Mary Sue' may be a perfectly decent character to another. I have seen the characters in some of Jules Verne's novels described as a bunch of Mary Sues.
Well...
nevermind
~And so it goes...
BE CAREFUL WITH THIS.
There is a BIG difference between a competent character and a Mary Sue. If they have to have everyone else tell them what to do, how to do it, or they never measure up to their challenges, that isn't making a realistic character: that's making punching bag, and one not worth reading in many cases.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a strong character, or even a Mary Sue. After all, look at the development path the comic writers took with Superman, especially in the 90's and onward! Sure, he's pretty all-powerful physically, but it's about the emotional struggle as he fights with himself to maintain a connection to humanity when he knows he is anything but.
In short, even a Mary Sue can be a great, powerful character for readers to empathize with. It's all about presentation.
Melanie E.
...
Thanks for taking what I said and assuming that I meant that for every single possible situation your character might be in. *shakes head sadly*
I could go on and on about Western Culture storytelling tropes, Try/Fail cycles, building believable characters, etc.. But it just doesn't matter. I'll either piss someone off, or someone will twist or misconstrue what I say.
It just doesn't fucking matter. It's not about me.
~And so it goes...
The solution...
I should have offered in the first damned place. (I know I'll regret posting this.)
Read a book on writing good characters.
Here's a good book on the subject, Characters & Viewpoint by Orson Scott Card
Whether or not you like Card's fiction or politics, he's a good writer and this is an excellent book on the subject. Pick up a used copy. It's part of a series by Writer's Digest called Elements of Fiction Writing. There are twelve books in the series, all of them are worth reading.
Feel free to shout warnings and turn this into something stupid. I'm fucking done.
~And so it goes...